By Works

[Guojing]

But you still believe the command to carry the cross is only for Jews don't you?

Israel as a nation has fallen when it comes to the gospel (romans 11:28)

They are no longer God’s favourite nation now. If Jews want to be saved, they have to be like us, saved thru 1 cor 15:1-4

So yes, carrying the cross is most definitely not the salvation truth for the but now time period

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I mean...there is the whole incarnation thing where He came and took care of sin and all. Th

Are you really demanding that I prove to you that God's not dependent on men? Do you really think yourself so grand that the Creator Himself is waiting around for your permission to do what He desires?

Matthew 3:9 …8Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.…

 

[Jackson123]

So yes, carrying the cross is most definitely not the salvation truth for the but now time period

Correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe carrying the cross is no longer the will of God ?

 

[dcontroversal]

but Keeping the Law Liberates. in any way, and at any time we come more into Alignment with God's Laws or even Just Remain in any Good Way that we have Already Learned to Do, Or even just do Anything good and Right Naturally from Birth -- in those Ways that we Keep the Laws -- We are Liberated -- we are Free.

Romans 8
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.


are we laboring to become?


16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


if we do not suffer (overcome sin, pick up our cross, learn to Keep the Laws) we will not be Glorified with Him.


From Suffering to Glory
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


after we suffer, after we become -- it is revealed -- day by day, hour by hour.

False....by the LAW is the knowledge of sin, by the law ALL the world is guilty, by the law every MOUTH IS STOPPED, and NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED by the law....

 

[Guojing]

Correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe carrying the cross is no longer the will of God ?

2 questions that you need to clarify before I give you my answer

First, what does "carrying the cross" means to you? Be as specific as you can.

Second, did Paul mention "carrying the cross" anywhere in his instructions to the Body of Christ after we believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4?

 

[Jackson123]

2 questions that you need to clarify before I give you my answer

First, what does "carrying the cross" means to you? Be as specific as you can.

Second, did Paul mention "carrying the cross" anywhere in his instructions to the Body of Christ after we believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4?

1. Cross symbol of death, carrying the cross symbol of death and suffering for Jesus like Paul suffer persecution for Jesus

2 no

 

[Guojing]

1. Cross symbol of death, carrying the cross symbol of death and suffering for Jesus like Paul suffer persecution for Jesus

2 no

So your 2nd answer helps to address the first.

Dying/suffering for your faith is definitely not required for salvation. His salvation is secured even if he were to purposely avoid carrying the cross.

Of course, if there is ever a time where it is required on a Christian's part, he will be rewarded in heaven.

 

[Chester]

So your 2nd answer helps to address the first.

Dying/suffering for your faith is definitely not required for salvation. His salvation is secured even if he were to purposely avoid carrying the cross.

Of course, if there is ever a time where it is required on a Christian's part, he will be rewarded in heaven.

Salvation is not based on a person's works. Salvation is secured because of faith in Jesus Christ and his finished atonement. So to say that "his salvation is secured even if he were to purposefully avoid carrying the cross" completely misses the point and is irrelevant.

Salvation is secured because of faith in Jesus Christ. So it is incorrect to say that a person's salvation is secured on the basis of doing or not doing works.

You say in the first paragraph that "dying/suffering is definitely not required for salvation, but then in the next line you say "if there is ever a time where it is required . . ." Very confusing!

Works are never a "requirement" for salvation: but as James points out, when we do have an active and real faith then there will also be works present. A faith without works is a dead faith. Salvation is about much more than being saved from the guilt of sin and going to heaven. Salvation means being given the gift of living above the control of sin in the world today.

 

[Chester]

Correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe carrying the cross is no longer the will of God ?

The idea that the gospels and the teachings of Jesus are not direct teaching, example, and commands for us today is heresy. (My view at least - - you may disagree, but you will be wrong if you do!)

I am not speaking to any particular person here: I am just clarifying the position of this thread.

 

[know1]

The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; (Acts 17:24-25 NASB)

You are struggling to find even one verse proving God doesn't need man to do His will.
The verses you used do NOT prove any such thing.
There are things God will do, but everything done is a DIRECT RESULT OF MAN DOING SOMETHING.
What we so we will reap, is a law which requires us to do something BEFORE God does.

 

[Jackson123]

So your 2nd answer helps to address the first.

Dying/suffering for your faith is definitely not required for salvation. His salvation is secured even if he were to purposely avoid carrying the cross.

Of course, if there is ever a time where it is required on a Christian's part, he will be rewarded in heaven.

So you believe Suffering is not required for salvation a. I correct?
1. Jesus say if one refused to carry the cross not worthy of Me
You believe Point 1 is only for Jews / gospel only for Jews
Can you prove point 1 only for Jews?

Mark 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

 

[Jackson123]

Salvation is not based on a person's works. Salvation is secured because of faith in Jesus Christ and his finished atonement. So to say that "his salvation is secured even if he were to purposefully avoid carrying the cross" completely misses the point and is irrelevant.

Salvation is secured because of faith in Jesus Christ. So it is incorrect to say that a person's salvation is secured on the basis of doing or not doing works.

You say in the first paragraph that "dying/suffering is definitely not required for salvation, but then in the next line you say "if there is ever a time where it is required . . ." Very confusing!

Works are never a "requirement" for salvation: but as James points out, when we do have an active and real faith then there will also be works present. A faith without works is a dead faith. Salvation is about much more than being saved from the guilt of sin and going to heaven. Salvation means being given the gift of living above the control of sin in the world today.

Yep, I believe salvation is by real faith in Jesus. And real faith in Jesus mean love Jesus and willing to suffer for Jesus

It may not mean being persecuted, but willing to.
For example when we accept Jesus and the next second we die, we may don't have time to bear fruit or do work for Jesus to show our love, but we still go to heaven, but if a person say have a faith in Jesus and purposely avoid carry the cross, I don't believe his faith is real and he go to hell, not because salvation require carry the cross, but because it prove his faith is fake

And I believe gospel is for all nations not only for Israel.

 

[Jackson123]

I remember one thing. People think that the thief on the cross never do something for Jesus, never manifest his faith but I am agree. Yes I agree salvation not by work, but for most case faith that saved bear work.

Luke 23

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Verse 40-42 tell what this thief do for jesus as his fruit

Jesus was in the position of unpopular and most people there mock Jesus. This thief not agree, and say something against majority, try to convert his friend to be in Jesus side, almost like missionary that preach the gospel to convince people to be in Jesus side and to love Jesus
He use the only time left to do God will
So I am not agree with majority people tha thief not do something to express his faith and billions people read his fruit.
Missionary work for 10 years, may preach to 1000 people

But this thief preach to billions people(billions people read his fruit from the Bible)

 

[EleventhHour]

No, not any act, but one that agrees with what you believe.
Answer me this.
When you heard and believed the gospel, did you confess Jesus as your Lord and savior.
That single act of confession, if you spoke it in faith, from your heart, then that act of confessing Jesus, saved you.
Paul clearly stated that is Romans 10:10, as did James in chapter 2.

So an act following belief is necessary for salvation?

 

[Guojing]

So you believe Suffering is not required for salvation a. I correct?
1. Jesus say if one refused to carry the cross not worthy of Me
You believe Point 1 is only for Jews / gospel only for Jews
Can you prove point 1 only for Jews?

Mark 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Matthew
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans 15:8
Remember that Christ came as a servant to the Jews to show that God is true to the promises he made to their ancestors.

As for Mark 16, I already given you the OT divine timetable regarding when the Gentiles are supposed to be reached by the Jews.

 

[Jackson123]

Matthew
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans 15:8
Remember that Christ came as a servant to the Jews to show that God is true to the promises he made to their ancestors.

As for Mark 16, I already given you the OT divine timetable regarding when the Gentiles are supposed to be reached by the Jews.

Don't you say gospel only for Jews?
Jesus say gospel (include command to carry the cross ) is for all nations

So you not agree with Jesus?

 

[Guojing]

Don't you say gospel only for Jews?
Jesus say gospel (include command to carry the cross ) is for all nations

So you not agree with Jesus?

I already given you the OT timetable on when the Gentiles were supposed to be reached, and how in early Acts, the 12 resisted preaching to the Gentiles before national Israel accepted Jesus as their Messiah right?

You forgotten the contents of that post already?

 

[Jackson123]

I already given you the OT timetable on when the Gentiles were supposed to be reached, and how in early Acts, the 12 resisted preaching to the Gentiles before national Israel accepted Jesus as their Messiah right?

You forgotten the contents of that post already?

So you believe the gospel ( include command to carry the cross) for all nations?

 

[Guojing]

So you believe the gospel ( include command to carry the cross) for all nations?

I refer you back to my earlier reply to you https://christianchat.com/threads/by-works.193223/post-4323136

Jesus first coming was for Israel, they were given the Law since Exodus. But they kept refusing to follow their covenant they made with God to follow the Law.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

So no, in the but now time period, carrying the cross is not necessary for salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

So an act following belief is necessary for salvation?

I don't think the term necessary is correct, but I believe real faith bear good work if that person have time
If that person accept Jesus than die in the next second, than he doesn't have time to bear the fruit of his faith