By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I am asking question not ask you to judge

If I ask you

Do you believe Jesus the only way to heaven?

Is that mean I ask you to judge muslim?

You asked me to judge someone who killed.

Get over it. If he has eternal life he is saved if not he was never saved to begin with

You need to remove the plank from
Your eyes and stop judging others. David sines because he chose his flesh when he was weak. As a true believer he also
Confesed it.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Yes you're 100% right, that Jesus did it. It's the regenerated new nature in Jesus that does the works.
So it's not the works we know of or try for (trying to accumulate merit before God) that Jesus wants, but the works we do not know about is what He likes (those proceeding from our new born inner man).
So why some focus on the works that we know of and we do?
That's why the whole insisting on works and constantly inspecting works is pointless, we will never accumulate merit Jesus is all the merit one can get, and we already received Him. In the end of the day after working in the vineyard everyone got the same coin, eternal life.
Warnings are only worth as signs on the side of the road, not to stray into a bad road, but we are made perfect in love as we go.
We need to focus on Jesus, and as our faith grows stronger we decrease and Jesus increases in us.
We don't need to strive in works anymore, just to surrender to Jesus and works will match up, the Spirit was given abundantly.

Love this, though one thing I'd turn around a bit.

We don't accumulate merit because we already have the merit. God saw us and He saw a person worth dying for. The issue with those who work isn't that their works aren't valuable, but they are trying to make themselves more valuable through their works and nothing is worth more than the blood of Jesus.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Yep, not focus oN how to bear fruit because we don't have ability to do so.
Focus oN abide in Jesus than we bear fruit

ON the other hand I don't believe killing is only lose reward.
Bible say killing not inherit kingdom or lose salvation

Not because work base salvation but abide base salvation. Killing mean you not abide in Him

No abide > Cut > burn/hell

Ohhhh okay... I do see now why you speak so much about killing... I understand.
You speak about murder as opposite of love, as taught in gospel of John. So hatred against our neighbor and all other not loving action that we need to watch out for and be on watch to abide in Jesus.
Yes. Amen. But there is forgiveness for those who stumble and repent that's why it's called washing of regeneration. They are made anew and won't continue in it and die in their sins.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Yep, not focus oN how to bear fruit because we don't have ability to do so.
Focus oN abide in Jesus than we bear fruit

ON the other hand I don't believe killing is only lose reward.
Bible say killing not inherit kingdom or lose salvation

Not because work base salvation but abide base salvation. Killing mean you not abide in Him

No abide > Cut > burn/hell

And how do you "abide"?

 

[Jackson123]

You asked me to judge someone who killed.

Get over it. If he has eternal life he is saved if not he was never saved to begin with

You need to remove the plank from
Your eyes and stop judging others. David sines because he chose his flesh when he was weak. As a true believer he also
Confesed it.

You don't want to judge but you judge me as not remove plank from my eyes.

My friend what is your definition of judge?

 

[Jackson123]

Ohhhh okay... I do see now why you speak so much about killing... I understand.
You speak about murder as opposite of love, as taught in gospel of John. So hatred against our neighbor and all other not loving action that we need to watch out for and be on watch to abide in Jesus.
Yes. Amen. But there is forgiveness for those who stumble and repent that's why it's called washing of regeneration. They are made anew and won't continue in it and die in their sins.

Yep It is require to repent for forgiveness.

Some people say only need confess.

Say I rob the bank, I get $million

Do I only need to confess to the bank manager but refused to give back what I have stolen?
Confess than do It again next month?

Anyway salvation not by work,by grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't want to judge but you judge me as not remove plank from my eyes.

My friend what is your definition of judge?

No the word said before you try to remove spec from someones eyes,to remove plank from yours

before you judge the one who killed, judge your own sin which makes you just as guilty in Gods eyes.

 

[Jackson123]

And how do you "abide"?

To my knoledge abide mean invite Jesus to come as the King in our heart, lE Him have us, not us anymore, let Him decide what we do. Let His plan not our plan, do His Will, not our Will.

 

[Jackson123]

No the word said before you try to remove spec from someones eyes,to remove plank from yours

before you judge the one who killed, judge your own sin which makes you just as guilty in Gods eyes.

So If I say, :" bible say, killer go to hell".
Is that mean I judge?
Just because believe what bible say that killer not inherit the kingdom, is that mean I judge?

 

[throughfaith]

The book of James was the very first NT letter ever written, before Paul, before the 4 Gospels.

If James chapter 2 was located in the Old Testament, would you still have the same perspective?

Great point 👍

 

[throughfaith]

The title for this thread comes from the use of the phrase in James 2: it is used four times - see the bold phrases

James 2 KJV
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8,9 that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. He was writing to correct the view that one is saved by doing good works.

What James writes does not contradict what Paul wrote. James says that a true faith will also have works. If the faith is alone without any works then it is a dead faith.

Good works cannot ever be done by a person's own ability or might or intellect; good works can only be done by Christ in us. We are "his workmanship" (Eph 2:10). In many of Paul's epistles, up to half of the space is given to practical exhortations to do good works in our fight for the kingdom of God. Let's fight for God's kingdom with the power of God's Spirit in us.

If your faith has no works it is no faith at all.

Works without faith are dead .

 

[throughfaith]

The title for this thread comes from the use of the phrase in James 2: it is used four times - see the bold phrases

James 2 KJV
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8,9 that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. He was writing to correct the view that one is saved by doing good works.

What James writes does not contradict what Paul wrote. James says that a true faith will also have works. If the faith is alone without any works then it is a dead faith.

Good works cannot ever be done by a person's own ability or might or intellect; good works can only be done by Christ in us. We are "his workmanship" (Eph 2:10). In many of Paul's epistles, up to half of the space is given to practical exhortations to do good works in our fight for the kingdom of God. Let's fight for God's kingdom with the power of God's Spirit in us.

If your faith has no works it is no faith at all.

Its important to see who James is writing to . Its to the 12 tribes , so I think applying James to the church in total is a mistake .

 

[throughfaith]

Its important to see who James is writing to . Its to the 12 tribes , so I think applying James to the church age in total, is a mistake .

Do I have the wrong thinking that when a person is born again God puts the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within him? Does a person that is not born again only have a carnal nature and does not have a spiritual nature?

1 Cor 2:11, For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Verse 13, Which things we (those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth; but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Verse 14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned. How can the natural man believe spiritual things and respond in faith?

Are you saying that what causes the natural carnal man (void of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) to be born again is BY GOD'S GRACE, in which I agree, but if it depends upon our response, would that not be considered as "eternal salvation by our works because of our response"? Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace in no more grace.

How would eternal salvation be a free gift of God's grace if it depended upon man's/woman's response?

I apologise for all of the questions, but I am truly concerned about a correct understanding of the scriptures.

The natural man / Carnal and babe are contrasted with the mature ( perfect or spiritual . The term 'spiritual means mature. A beliver who is able to receive the meat . The issue the Corinthians are having is because of behaviour. They are carnal believer's as Paul is saying . Babes not ready for the meat and still in need of milk ( hebrews 5 . 11-14 ) No where does it say unbelievers cannot Believe the Gospel . Salvation is indeed a gift given in response to believing the Gospel . This has nothing to do with works or Gods sovereignty or man's will ect . Its to do with what God said He has purposed to do and how to save . 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe ( 1 cor )

 

[Jackson123]

Works without faith are dead .

Is that your own verse to counter James 2?

 

[Jackson123]

The natural man / Carnal and babe are contrasted with the mature ( perfect or spiritual . The term 'spiritual means mature. A beliver who is able to receive the meat . The issue the Corinthians are having is because of behaviour. They are carnal believer's as Paul is saying . Babes not ready for the meat and still in need of milk ( hebrews 5 . 11-14 ) No where does it say unbelievers cannot Believe the Gospel .

Yep, faith/believe the bible come from hearing

No body hear If No body make a dound

So let make a sound about Jesus, to make people hear.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its important to see who James is writing to . Its to the 12 tribes , so I think applying James to the church in total is a mistake .

Wow really? So we can just discount it even though everything else he said is applicable to the church and it’s people

whyndo people have such a problem with James, he does not contradict Paul he compliments him, in chapter two he is addresses hearers of the word not doers, where Paul mostly addressed workers for to fight legalism,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Works without faith are dead .

True

but faith without works is dead also

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So If I say, :" bible say, killer go to hell".
Is that mean I judge?
Just because believe what bible say that killer not inherit the kingdom, is that mean I judge?

Good day sir, I am sick of going around and round

you do not believe jesus meant what he said in those passages in john that’s all i need to know

 

[EleventhHour]

Its important to see who James is writing to . Its to the 12 tribes , so I think applying James to the church in total is a mistake .

I would disagree, I think the key to understanding James is his audience for sure, however also important the type of justification he is addressing. It is not spiritual justification.

 

[Guojing]

Its important to see who James is writing to . Its to the 12 tribes , so I think applying James to the church in total is a mistake .

Similarly Peter and John were also writing to Israel in their letters after James.

The key to understanding James's view of being right with God is that, for the nation Israel, their sins are only blotted out at Jesus's 2nd coming for them.

The backdrop is given by Peter whom the Holy Spirit was using to address Israel in Acts 3

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

....

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Holy Spirit was announcing to Israel the good news that, even though they have done a wicked act in crucifying their Messiah that was promised to them in the OT, forgiveness was at hand.

All their sins will be blotted out at the times of refreshing, when Jesus comes back to the Mount of Olives for the nation, as promised in the OT.

Once you can understand that, for Israel, they will only be redeemed during the 2nd coming, everything James, Peter and John was writing in their letters will make so much more sense.

Israel's responsibility now is to stay faithful and do works (James 2), endure the coming Tribulation which is the 70th week of Daniel (1 Peter), and love God and their neighbors (1 John).

In this aspect 1 Peter 4 is especially enlightening in teaching us how Israel is to view the 7 year Tribulation

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved, which is not what Paul would instruct us in the Body of Christ.

So if Peter can tell us that, what James is saying in chapter 2 is really not surprising. There is no need for any of us former gentiles in the Body of Christ to try to force James to agree with Paul. James is referring to Israel who have no guarantee of their salvation until Jesus returns for them.