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BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
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brother consider the scriptures in the New Testament

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:

for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭

the law of Moses is not a bunch of individual commands . It is one law it requires complete obedience to every letter in it. If tou transgress Moses law any aspect of it you are the same as someone who breaks it daily. There’s no difference to God in a liar and a thief , an adulterer and a murderer. The law has to be entirely kept that’s a curse on imperfect people .

...‬ ‭
King David transgressed, but he is also saved. As the renewed covenant of grace, in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach is for all of mankind that ever lived, and will ever live, who accept him as King and Messiah. King David, in his transgressions, prophesied about Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach that will come, for the deliverance from the eternal death and damnation, by writing the renewed covenant with his blood, and to rule over whole of the renewed earth (after he destroys this earth at his second coming), inhabited by those that was redeemed. Before that time however, an earthly servant of David will rule, under the heavenly rule of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach in a renewed Israel on this present earth.


Ezekiel 37 (ESV)


19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


Psalms 119 (ESV)

1 Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! 2 Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, 3 who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! 4 You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. 5 Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! 6 Then I shall not be put to shame, having my eyes fixed on all your commandments. 7 I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules. 8 I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!


Matthew 7 (ESV)


21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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King David transgressed, but he is also saved. As the renewed covenant of grace, in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach is for all of mankind that ever lived, and will ever live, who accept him as King and Messiah. King David, in his transgressions, prophesied about Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach that will come, for the deliverance from the eternal death and damnation, by writing the renewed covenant with his blood, and to rule over whole of the renewed earth (after he destroys this earth at his second coming), inhabited by those that was redeemed. Before that time however, an earthly servant of David will rule, under the heavenly rule of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach in a renewed Israel on this present earth.


Ezekiel 37 (ESV)


19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


Psalms 119 (ESV)

1 Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! 2 Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, 3 who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! 4 You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. 5 Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! 6 Then I shall not be put to shame, having my eyes fixed on all your commandments. 7 I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules. 8 I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!


Matthew 7 (ESV)


21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Um yea all good scripture not really sure of your point. Your looking at the old
Mediator for an old law over sin .Moses law is meant to Condemn the world for sin . Hold them guilty before God. It can not justify anyone

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭

It came because of transgression against God and was only intended until Christ came .

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It is a curse to follow those works in the law

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can’t choose which things of the law apply every word in Moses book applies . Including stoning other sinners , relating evil with evil wound for wound and stripe for stripe , including every single not and tittle of a law that can’t save but only condemn and curse .

The law is for unrepentant sinners not for the children of God as is the gospel

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m not sure what you are getting at honestly. We do have a law and a law governed it’s Christ and what he preached on the gospel we are obligated to Christ not Moses and thank God for that!

but it seems we have pretty much went in a huge circle so again I appreciate the discussion and hope to find some better agreement elsewhere
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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It’s wrot
Yes brother, I agree the renewed covenant is the fulfilment, of the eternal covenant to God's covenant people, Israel the Body of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Messiah:

God's law of love for God and fellow man as yourself, is now written on our hearts and minds, with the new covenant written in Jesus' / Yeshua's blood:

Jeremiah 31 (ESV)


31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a (Renewed covenant: ) new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 35 (Eternal covenant: ) Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."


Jeremiah 33 (ESV)


(Eternal covenant:) 25 Thus says the Lord: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)


(Renewed covenant:) 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Yes brother, I agree the renewed covenant is the fulfilment, of the eternal covenant to God's covenant people, Israel the Body of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Messiah:

God's law of love for God and fellow man as yourself, is now written on our hearts and minds, with the new covenant written in Jesus' / Yeshua's blood:

Jeremiah 31 (ESV)


31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a (Renewed covenant: ) new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 35 (Eternal covenant: ) Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."


Jeremiah 33 (ESV)


(Eternal covenant:) 25 Thus says the Lord: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)


(Renewed covenant:) 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
It’s written on our hearts because we believe the gospel Jesus sent into the world as a witness . The gospel of the kingdom he preached believing writes that on a heart . That’s where faith is formed what beliefs we allow
I to Our hearts and minds and believe

if one believes “ repentance isn’t required I’m saved” they will never come to repentance , if they believe the gospel Christ will form correct faith that teaches them “ repentance is required I can’t continue living in sin”

the only thing that will help is the things Jesus taught believers they will be saved through that very belief in him . It’s meant to change the mind and heart of a sinner so we don’t need a law telling us “ don’t sin” because the gospel deals with the issue in us those lies Satan wrote on our heart on our nature

mankind fell into sin through a lie we believed , mankind is redeemed from sin through believing the truth
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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People who say "the sinner's prayer" of repentance - but make no effort to put it to practice in their lives, are only deceiving themselves! They can't get to heaven that way! People who are deceived into thinking that can get them to heaven, are those who think they can get that wonderful gift of salvation completely for free. Have you ever noticed how quick people are to accept a free gift that they really want? /QUOTE]

The things of God are mysterious! Salvation is completely free, indeed, but without holiness no one will see God. Unfortunately many pastors teach that all we have to do is to accept Jesus and believe in Him. The word BELIEVE in Greek involves fidelity (a commitment)and therefore salvation is not free as those pastors teach.
 
L

lenna

Guest
People who say "the sinner's prayer" of repentance - but make no effort to put it to practice in their lives, are only deceiving themselves! They can't get to heaven that way! People who are deceived into thinking that can get them to heaven, are those who think they can get that wonderful gift of salvation completely for free. Have you ever noticed how quick people are to accept a free gift that they really want? There are some things that everyone wants. And salvation is one of those things. They may not all know about Jesus and the salvation that comes through Him. But no one wants to end up in a place like hell! So in effect, they do all want salvation. But only those who are willing to "pay"(accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life) the hugely reduced "cost" (the cost of having perfect righteousness and having never sinned) they must "pay" "(accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life) can be saved.
Luke 14:27-28
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
KJV

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

some very serious twisting of scripture going on above.

salvation does not cost us, but it cost Christ everything He had, making Himself lower than the angels and becoming a part of the human race. He was both God and man and so able to die in our place, in perfection with no commandments broken

you appear to have a works oriented salvation and that is not compatible with the actual gospel

you also appear to have difficulty with the concept of being complete and acceptable to God because God has you covered through the shed blood of His Son

deception comes in many forms and it would seem the one you have fallen for, while pointing fingers in every direction, is the one where your works are needed to help Christ along

the verse you quote where Jesus is saying 'depart from me' is not applicable to your belief. If you actually look at it? it is speaking of the works that were not acceptable

I would be concerned all these works that you speak of might fit into that category

ps: you do not have to like a post you disagree with. when and if you respond, the poster will get a notice that somone has responded to the post. all these likes are not compatible with a disagreement
 
L

lenna

Guest
The Galatians who were returning to "beggarly elements" were turning away from lordship to Christ - to that of trying to earn their own salvation without repentance and reliance upon the cross.
I see you do not understand the book of Galatians

the entire problem was that they began to walk in their works again rather than depending on their spiritual walk with Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit

this 'gospel' you are posting about, makes the blood of Christ of no avail...just like the Galatians

you are heading down the wrong road
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
1,164
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some very serious twisting of scripture going on above.

salvation does not cost us, but it cost Christ everything He had, making Himself lower than the angels and becoming a part of the human race. He was both God and man and so able to die in our place, in perfection with no commandments broken

you appear to have a works oriented salvation and that is not compatible with the actual gospel

you also appear to have difficulty with the concept of being complete and acceptable to God because God has you covered through the shed blood of His Son

deception comes in many forms and it would seem the one you have fallen for, while pointing fingers in every direction, is the one where your works are needed to help Christ along

the verse you quote where Jesus is saying 'depart from me' is not applicable to your belief. If you actually look at it? it is speaking of the works that were not acceptable

I would be concerned all these works that you speak of might fit into that category

ps: you do not have to like a post you disagree with. when and if you respond, the poster will get a notice that somone has responded to the post. all these likes are not compatible with a disagreement
are you opposed to good works being a part of salvation ?

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬

I’m glad for grace but there’s an erouneous version in the world . If we are opposed to hearing about things like repentance and righteousness , the good works we are to walk in , that are the purpose of grave to bring us to the point of being zealous for good works . It isn’t the grace of God

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like anytime someone mentions what the word of a god says we’re supposed to believe and do , some have an issue with it and go
Immediately to “ works based salvation “

We do that because grace isn’t teaching us about repentance and righteousness because we refuse to be taught about those things by Gods word

try letting some of Paul’s actual teachings into your thinking

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not evil teaching it’s meant to shape what believers believe . If we reject the word it will never teach us anything if we believe things like Paul’s teaching there and don’t immediately cast it away for the sake of a verse about grace in the same letter it will teach us about denying sin and living right in other words repentance if we reject Gods teaching we’re fooling ourselves
 

MyrtleTrees

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Sep 5, 2014
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I see you do not understand the book of Galatians

the entire problem was that they began to walk in their works again rather than depending on their spiritual walk with Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit

this 'gospel' you are posting about, makes the blood of Christ of no avail...just like the Galatians

you are heading down the wrong road
Hi! I think they were switching over to a wrong gospel - I think that's what was the matter. And that was a serious problem! I think they were choosing to earn their salvation through good works alone, rather than through Jesus. This was the same error the Pharisees of Jesus' time made. Many people don't want to turn from their sins, and prefer instead, to cover up their sins just by doing good works alone. They don't want to do it through Jesus, as that would require sincere repentance. Many who want to go to heaven, aren't willing to sincerely repent of their sins.

Gal 1:6-9

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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Hi! You're right! I think many pastors teach incorrectly on the subject. Some may be sincere in trying to help people learn how to be saved -but even so, their incorrect teaching on the subject can be misleading to many, I think. Especially since it is so easy to want something of value, without having had to make any meaningful commitment on their part. So many profess to be Christians, but have not come to true repentance of sin in their lives. Yet think they're still saved. It would be better for them to know the truth and be warned, than for them to continue to believe they're saved when they're not. So that they can learn what they need to do to be truly saved, and then do it. And also be better able to understand the need for holy living in daily living, through choosing obedience and through repentance of daily sins as a habit.
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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Um yea all good scripture not really sure of your point. Your looking at the old
Mediator for an old law over sin .Moses law is meant to Condemn the world for sin . Hold them guilty before God. It can not justify anyone
I don't think God is old and new. God is eternal. You are saying there was no grace in what you call old, and scripture tells us there was grace. The entire idea of the sacrificial system was not killing animals, God said he hated that. It was as a symbol of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Unforgiven sin killed then, and unforgiven sin kills not. God gave grace then, and God gives grace now.

We earn punishment for our sins, if we steal we go to jail, it is the same. God guides us to abundance, peace, contentment now and God did then. Just as there is eternal grace, it is an attribute of the eternal Lord.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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Every Christian on the planet HEEDS the word of God.......to think that some do not is ridiculous.
Heed=obey In the church there are wheat and tares......the Master did not want the servant to weed them out........tares and wheat look very much alike except tares do not bear fruit.........but the Master knew who were His wheat. Let each servant serve their own master and NOT the bullies who crack the whips over them. WHEAT know what to do and are doing it daily....ALL our good works were prepared for us by God beforehand that they should walk in them Eph 2:10

I think there are a lot of people who belong to the Church of Perpetual Motion and are not satisfied until everyone else is busy busy busy.......doing what? while they themselves seem to have mountains of time to spend in forums instead of WORKING.
Christian chat is not work.

These endless forums goading people to "good works" and trying to hang guilt trips on the babes in Christ who are wondering just how they could serve to DESERVE salvation and have not yet learned that Jesus meant it when He said..........come to me and I will give you REST. Matt 11:28 (that is their motto: serve to deserve)

Well folks, nobody deserves it.......that is why it is called GRACE.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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I don't think God is old and new. God is eternal. You are saying there was no grace in what you call old, and scripture tells us there was grace. The entire idea of the sacrificial system was not killing animals, God said he hated that. It was as a symbol of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Unforgiven sin killed then, and unforgiven sin kills not. God gave grace then, and God gives grace now.

We earn punishment for our sins, if we steal we go to jail, it is the same. God guides us to abundance, peace, contentment now and God did then. Just as there is eternal grace, it is an attribute of the eternal Lord.
do you think Moses and Jesus taught the same doctrine though ? Or do
Acknowledge it would be impossible to obey both Moses and Jesus on many issues Because they taught contrary things on the same matters ?

I’m saying man changed from what God created and became sinners so the law came for that reason Because of sin it wasn’t from the beginning and wasn’t made to save but to make guilty

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree the law is a shadow of what God would do afterwards in Christ but I disagree I believe that the priests sacrifice of atonement was a continual yearly reminder of sins

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point is not that God ever changed but man changed and mans dominion on earth requires them to be held to account for sin , and then God has sent salvation in Christ and his teachings and ways in the gospel . my point is thier different teachings contrary for different folks

the law is for the fallen man

“And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law comes in that view of God

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So the law comes to sinners who can’t bear to hear Gods word children of Adam and Eve

the gospel comes for this reason

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

Moses law was given for this purpose

“That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:25-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it was given to hold guilty the sinners

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If your interested we can compare Moses teachings about marriage with Christ’s teachings and find christs before the law and after the law , but under the law Moses different contrary teaching .

or how we treat other sinners , how we would say treat a person who had pre marital sex . Or whether or not to take revenge or forgive and turn the other cheek , whether or not to bless those who curse us or curse them back , whether it’s enough to not kill ? Or of hating someone is as bad ? Is it okay to have list in my heart of o don’t actually commit adultery ?

Jesus taught what no one else ever had taught about God the truth , no veil , no shadows or figures but the one who came from God unto the world for the purpose of teaching the truth to all who would believe him and commissioning them to spread it to the world for salvation
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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Hi! You're right! I think many pastors teach incorrectly on the subject. Some may be sincere in trying to help people learn how to be saved -but even so, their incorrect teaching on the subject can be misleading to many, I think. Especially since it is so easy to want something of value, without having had to make any meaningful commitment on their part. So many profess to be Christians, but have not come to true repentance of sin in their lives. Yet think they're still saved. It would be better for them to know the truth and be warned, than for them to continue to believe they're saved when they're not. So that they can learn what they need to do to be truly saved, and then do it. And also be better able to understand the need for holy living in daily living, through choosing obedience and through repentance of daily sins as a habit.
I totally agree with you!