Calvinism and Context?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,045
8,376
113
Jesus said, in John 12:32 (shortly before He would go to the Cross), "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."





And... He said, in John 14:6, "Jesus says to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, if not by [/by means of] Me."
A careful analysis of the context of John 12:32 yields the strong probably that the "all" here would be meant as both Jews and Greeks. In other words, beyond the bounds of Israel. Nevertheless, this inclusive group still needs to be drawn and called.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
A careful analysis of the context of John 12:32 yields the strong probably that the "all" here would be meant as both Jews and Greeks. In other words, beyond the bounds of Israel. Nevertheless, this inclusive group still needs to be drawn and called.
And what are these considerations?

Beside that, why is the plain language good enough in Romans 8, but here you must appeal to context?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,045
8,376
113
The Calvinist will often say, Jesus only died for those whom God chose [as "His"] before time [before creation].

However, Romans 8:9b says this:

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."


[the underlined is true of us before we come to faith in Christ; therefore the bold is true of us before and up to that point]





QFT. = ) (y)
Well, I have to wonder how people can miss the 800lb gorilla in the room.

Avoidance is not reconciliation.

https://biblehub.net/searchnt.php?q=elect

https://biblehub.net/searchnt.php?q=election
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,045
8,376
113
And what are these considerations?

Beside that, why is the plain language good enough in Romans 8, but here you must appeal to context?
Sorry. Im enjoying my walk here in the botanical gradens. We are at the stunning Chinese exhibit. Maybe later.

And have a choosy choicy day!
 
May 31, 2020
1,706
1,559
113
Sorry. Im enjoying my walk here in the botanical gradens. We are at the stunning Chinese exhibit. Maybe later.

And have a choosy choicy day!
That’s cool. Enjoy the beautiful fragrances as much as the visuals.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
A careful analysis of the context of John 12:32 yields the strong probably that the "all" here would be meant as both Jews and Greeks. In other words, beyond the bounds of Israel. Nevertheless, this inclusive group still needs to be drawn and called.
My emphasis was on "who" does the drawing (from the point in time of His Cross and forward). Jesus said, "I... will draw all to MYSELF" (my point had to do with the "chronology" that is so often disregarded and overlooked).


I believe it is the same for Romans 9, in view of what Romans 11:32 says, "For God hath concluded them ALL [Jew AND Gentile alike] in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL [Jew AND Gentile alike!]"... but this is to consider Romans 9:18 in its proper context, where it had said, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth." [the overall CONTEXT of Romans 9-11 being "nations"... "Israel [singular nation]," and "Gentiles [plural nations]"... and this understanding carries through to our grasp of "eschatology" (I only mention this b/c you and I both agree on "pre-trib"... but "pre-trib" is not really a thing apart from grasping this distinction between "Israel" and "the nations/Gentiles" (here in this context) not to mention also "the Church which is His body" (wherein there is NO distinction, in our standing before God "IN CHRIST")]... IOW, the "on whom He will" (9:18) has to do with their idea that the Jews were "IN" with God by reason of their birth/heritage (them, and them alone! no one else!), but Paul is saying, who are you to say that God cannot have mercy on the Gentiles IF HE WANTS TO (and such was indeed His plan!) The "understood question" underlying the CONTEXT being, "what of the promises made TO ISRAEL?!" (now; ...where are they?! [Jesus died, and...??])
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Well, I have to wonder how people can miss the 800lb gorilla in the room.

Avoidance is not reconciliation.

https://biblehub.net/searchnt.php?q=elect

https://biblehub.net/searchnt.php?q=election
Calvinism defines the elect as that select group whom, alone, God has from eternity past appointed to salvation and this not the correct understanding of the word.

All others are predestined by God to eternal damnation.

The gospel can be preached day and night to the latter and there would be no point, because they are totally incapable of believing it.
God…gives the faith to believe to the selected alone, though He could do so for all.

Yet never is this absurd doctrine evidenced in Scripture.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
The silence on God's part certainly gives ambiguity to Elihu's status and there is some accord between them, but Elihu states a number of things that are incorrect. He doesn't just say that Job's speaking is in ignorance, but that Job keeps company with the wicked and states that Job's situation is repayment for his deeds.
God also tells Job that he is speaking in ignorance, and Job agrees ((42:3))
God also says the company Job has been keeping has been wicked ((42:7))
God also says that He repays each man for his deeds ((Matthew 16:27))
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
Sorry. Im enjoying my walk here in the botanical gradens. We are at the stunning Chinese exhibit. Maybe later.

And have a choosy choicy day!
Nice, enjoy.

Though when you have time, I would appreciate the argument for reading "all" as groups rather than universal, especially considering that the direct context of that statement was following the declaration that judgment was coming and the ruler of the world would be cast out.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
Oops... to go along with my Post #707, I'd meant to add (but somehow dropped it):

cv5: But the Bible is clear that we were chosen ONLY because of mercy and pity (as was the nation Israel).
I was responding, in part, to this also ^
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
But Elihu's greatest issue is not what he says, but that only God has the proper right to speak at that time.
that's what Elihu says. ((35:13-16))
he says if you're going to speak before God, it should be praise, not complaint. ((35:9-12))
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,045
8,376
113
Calvinism defines the elect as that select group whom, alone, God has from eternity past appointed to salvation and this not the correct understanding of the word.

All others are predestined by God to eternal damnation.

The gospel can be preached day and night to the latter and there would be no point, because they are totally incapable of believing it.
God…gives the faith to believe to the selected alone, though He could do so for all.

Yet never is this absurd doctrine evidenced in Scripture.
Yes yes, we know of these Calvinistic ideas.

You still need to deal with the elect and election. Its there. Its literally EVERYWHERE.

Now I have zero problems with election. It is fully and seamlessly inegrated into present day systematic theology. Which does no good if you simply "don't get it".

Fortunately for me I do. And I sleep well at night believe it.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
God also tells Job that he is speaking in ignorance, and Job agrees ((42:3))
God also says the company Job has been keeping has been wicked ((42:7))
God also says that He repays each man for his deeds ((Matthew 16:27))
All are agreed Job speaks in ignorance, but it seems a stretch to state God's reprimand of Job's 3 friends is "keeping company of the wicked" in the way Elihu says it.

You still haven't addressed the basic premise, though, that Elihu regardless of whether he says some true things stood in the place of God since Job had made the plea of innocence. The silence on the part of Job and God can be read either way, with Job not answering because Elihu has no place to speak and God not answering for the same reason.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,045
8,376
113
Nice, enjoy.

Though when you have time, I would appreciate the argument for reading "all" as groups rather than universal, especially considering that the direct context of that statement was following the declaration that judgment was coming and the ruler of the world would be cast out.
Oh, I sifted it out of various commentaries. No stroke of genius on my part. You have a few hours to confim my assessment.

Enjoy!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
Elihu distorts Job's earnest complaints and desire for answers into evil speech against God.
Job agrees with Elihu & God that Job should quit complaining, that it is evil to do so. ((42:1-6))
this is how that Job is righteous: he hears and obeys rebuke ((Job 35:9-16, Psalm 141:5, Proverbs 9:8, 19:25, 25:12, 27:6, Ecclesiastes 7:5, etc etc etc))
 
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
Romans 1:19 (NASB) because that which is known about God is evident with them; for God made it evident to them.

Jesus made it evident to all men.

He has revealed the nature of God to them.
He promised to draw ALL men to Him because of what has been made evident to them.
Yet some suppress this truth in unrighteousness and resist the drawing.

What does “all” mean?....someone who is chosen and drawn suppresses nothing.....He knew his children before they were born.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
What does “all” mean?....someone who is chosen and drawn suppresses nothing.....He knew his children before they were born.
"All" does not mean chosen
 
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
As is typical, you're quoting a single verse devoid of the context as a pretext.

The key to John 6:65 is found in John 6:64 "there are some of you who do not believe. "

The entire chapter Jesus is dealing with people who think they are the people of God yet are not sensitive to God's teaching, which Jesus affirms in John 6:45 is directed at all.

So in both instances Jesus' statements are a denounement of their view of themselves as children of God based on their heritage and a linking of being God's with being amenable to God's teaching, to believing.

Of course I’m quoting a single verse..because you don’t understand it..like the other questions I asked....
🤣🤣
 
Status
Not open for further replies.