Calvinism and Context?

[posthuman]

You are predicating God's choice on some factor that makes the sheep His

the Father gave them to the Son. that's the predication. John 6:37-39 for one example.

that the Father gives them implies they belong to the Father to give. see John 8:44 for one example: not everyone belongs to the Father in this sense ((yeach check the context, that is exactly the context))

 

[posthuman]

All of that I can agree with, but the issue remains that there must be a real difference between those chosen and those not in order for the choice itself to not be arbitrary.

not of will or effort or desire or strength of man, not by works nor human merit, but of Him who has mercy.

there is no difference, all have sinned and are worthy of condemnation. no one can boast in anything but that God had mercy on you. that is the only difference, and that is what saves: He shows you mercy, or He does not, and He will have compassion on whom He will because He is God and no one can question Him. if you think He's evil for doing that, you think you are good enough to judge Him. see Job, who slapped his hand over his mouth. see Paul, who addressed this very thing saying 'who are you, o man, to answer back to Him?'
receiving "mercy" presupposes that it is not by any form of merit on our part, else it would be reward.

 

[Bbrdrd]

the Father gave them to the Son. that's the predication. John 6:37-39 for one example.

that the Father gives them implies they belong to the Father to give. see John 8:44 for one example: not everyone belongs to the Father in this sense ((yeach check the context, that is exactly the context))

Ok, but then what's the separation? Why do some belong to the Father and not others if He makes all? And does not everyone belong to the Father in some sense? So then again we're left with a dilemma, because it is as if you are saying God makes this choice for no reason. Simply caprice.

 

[Bbrdrd]

not by will or effort or desire or strength of man, not by works nor human merit, but by Him who has mercy.

there is no difference, all have sinned and are worthy of condemnation. no one can boast in anything but that God had mercy on you.
receiving "mercy" presupposes that it is not by any form of merit on our part, else it would be reward.

This is where the division begins, while the Bible certainly teaches all have sinned and that death is the result of that sin it seems a stretch to say that all are equally worthy of condemnation, especially given that the Bible itself disagrees such as with Job who is said to be blameless, and Noah and Daniel who along with Job are said that their righteousness could deliver them.

 

[soggykitten]

yeah OK what about this tho

T.U.L.I.P SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE

we can trade links all day, and who will click on them?
anyone can search the web and find a site saying whatever nonsense anyone can imagine.
how about we talk like real people who think and reason all on our own?

Really? What about links to scripture?
Last time I checked I am a real person.
If you've ever posted a link in any thread here that you have assumed whatever position you imagine your question intended for me. You're a real person, right? OK, then.

 

[Nehemiah6]

in my experience it's only those who find His sovereignty repugnant that accuse God of being arbitrary or capricious.

What is repugnant is the DISTORTION of the sovereignty of God, so that God is shown to undermine His own Gospel. The Gospel is all about the grace of God, not the sovereignty of God.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 2:11,12; 3:4-7)

According to those who distort the sovereignty of God, every mention of "grace", "kindness", "love" and "mercy" was a mistake made by the Holy Spirit. Those words should all have been replaced with "sovereignty"! And that is how the Gospel was perverted by men.

 

[soggykitten]

I mean Jesus is the witness of this world's hatred of God because he is God. Likewise, he is the witneess of people who love God because he is God,

Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jn.6:45

So, no one can come to Jesus unless they love or are "drawn" (attracted) by the Father.

How does God teach us?

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets:" They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

 

[soggykitten]

This is where the division begins, while the Bible certainly teaches all have sinned and that death is the result of that sin it seems a stretch to say that all are equally worthy of condemnation, especially given that the Bible itself disagrees such as with Job who is said to be blameless, and Noah and Daniel who along with Job are said that their righteousness could deliver them.

God had mercy upon the whole world. That is why we are saved through faith by God's free irrevocable gift of Salvation. That which Jesus sealed with his blood as the new covenant between humans and our Lord whose gifts are irrevocable.
We were all condemned in our sins as the human race prior to God's blessing as described in John 3:16. This is not something Calvinism/Lordship Salvation recognizes. The, all part.

 

[posthuman]

This is where the division begins, while the Bible certainly teaches all have sinned and that death is the result of that sin it seems a stretch to say that all are equally worthy of condemnation, especially given that the Bible itself disagrees such as with Job who is said to be blameless, and Noah and Daniel who along with Job are said that their righteousness could deliver them.

the Bible teaches both free will, a righteousness God rewards, and also sovereign election & a righteousness that is not of one's self. it's wrong to deny either: reformed theology is all based in scripture and flows from a recognizance of the omnipotence and sovereignty of God, and it's criticized for leaving little room for free human agency & failing to explain the righteous basis for judgement. neo-pelagianism has some Biblical basis in human culpability but is rooted in humanistic sanctity of human freedom and is criticized for ignoring or twisting scripture directly opposing it and a largely formulaic or agnostic view of salvation.
if i have to choose between the two intellectually it is not a difficult: God is in heaven and i am on earth; who am i to judge Him? my lot is to believe and rust Him, and seek His mercy.

my pastor describes our will as a function with an horizontal asymptote: we can approach something, but never reach it. It surely exists and we are surely righteously judged, but our will is not truly 'free' and our best efforts of will and determination can never effect our own redemption.

What is repugnant is the DISTORTION of the sovereignty of God, so that God is shown to undermine His own Gospel. The Gospel is all about the grace of God, not the sovereignty of God.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 2:11,12; 3:4-7)

According to those who distort the sovereignty of God, every mention of "grace", "kindness", "love" and "mercy" was a mistake made by the Holy Spirit. Those words should all have been replaced with "sovereignty"! And that is how the Gospel was perverted by men.

I don't know what you are even talking about.

It is because of His sovereign deity that salvation must needs be through His own grace, and by no other means possible.

 

[Journeyman]

They hated Him, and still do, because they "must" - - this is what Jesus said, and I believe Him. Yes their despising is unjust but it must be so.

Why do you think God foretold all of this thousands of years before any of them were born? Why do you think Jesus said it must be so?
This is going back all the way to Genesis 3.

To me these are questions worth grappling with, but trying to bait one another into blasphemy or groundlessly accusing the historical theology of the church of having no basis in scripture is a waste of time.

Jesus never said people "must" hate him the way youre portraying it. Prophecy is proof that God's word is true.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't know what you are even talking about.

You are the one promoting the sovereignty of God over the grace of God. If that were true then the word "sovereignty" would replace the word "grace" in the verses quoted.

And you cannot have it both ways. Either the grace of God offers salvation freely to all mankind (as stated in Titus 2:11) or the sovereignty of God limits salvation to just a few of the so-called "elect".

So rather than following the doctrines of men, take some time to study and digest those quoted verses from Titus. Which would then lead to you rejecting the distortion of God's sovereignty.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And just so that we are clear, God is indeed sovereign over the whole universe. There is absolutely no doubt about that. He knows when even a sparrow falls.

What is also crystal clear from Scripture is that because of Adam's disobedience, God planned for Christ to become the Lamb of God even from BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the world. That was all about grace and mercy.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:18-20)

And just so that there would be no misunderstanding, God caused John the Baptizer to identify the Lamb of God as the Savior who would take away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29). Not merely the sins of the so-called "elect".

 

[posthuman]

Really? What about links to scripture?

check the link i put -- chock full of dozens and dozens of scriptures

Last time I checked I am a real person.

If you've ever posted a link in any thread here that you have assumed whatever position you imagine your question intended for me.

generally if i do it's a source or article someone asked for so i obliged.
anyway let the webpage you posted argue with the webpage i posted, and while they are busy with each other maybe you and i could talk? ((i wonder if they cancel each other out just by existing?))

You're a real person, right?

i don't know; how can i tell?

OK, then.

i like this part

 

[posthuman]

You are the one promoting the sovereignty of God over the grace of God

since when?

how?

did you even read what i wrote?

only because He's sovereign can He extend grace, and His grace only matters because of His sovereignty. do you imagine His deity and His grace are self-contradictory??

 

[posthuman]

distortion of God's sovereignty.

i think you ought to define what you mean by that, and then we can check what you say against scripture.

 

[Bbrdrd]

the Bible teaches both free will, a righteousness God rewards, and also sovereign election & a righteousness that is not of one's self. it's wrong to deny either: reformed theology is all based in scripture and flows from a recognizance of the omnipotence and sovereignty of God, and it's criticized for leaving little room for free human agency & failing to explain the righteous basis for judgement. neo-pelagianism has some Biblical basis in human culpability but is rooted in humanistic sanctity of human freedom and is criticized for ignoring or twisting scripture directly opposing it and a largely formulaic or agnostic view of salvation.
if i have to choose between the two intellectually it is not a difficult: God is in heaven and i am on earth; who am i to judge Him? my lot is to believe and rust Him, and seek His mercy.

my pastor describes our will as a function with an horizontal asymptote: we can approach something, but never reach it. It surely exists and we are surely righteously judged, but our will is not truly 'free' and our best efforts of will and determination can never effect our own redemption.



I don't know what you are even talking about.

It is because of His sovereign deity that salvation must needs be through His own grace, and by no other means possible.

I can understand your position, and concur that ultimately we must trust God in His decisions. But to characterize the discussion as either/or reformed or "neo-pelagian" is rather limiting. There is a wide chasm between being completely and totally unable to do anything in our own right within our salvation, and being able to affect our salvation such that our own righteousness could save us. Reformed theology errs so heavily in favor of God's sovereignty that it distorts God's love, justice, and even His sovereign will.
Treating it as if we have no claim on God for justice because He is all-powerful denies the revelation. God has revealed to us His will and what pleases Him and has stated He cannot lie. Because of this we can have confidence that there is justice in God's decisions higher than any human court could deliver. We know that we will be judged, and judged rightly.
The gloss that God saying "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" means that God is merciful in an unjust manner holding some culpable and some not for the same sin denies what God has revealed to us. If we cannot search the Scriptures and see the justice of God and understand it, then God is unknowable. Yet Jesus Christ is knowable, it's what makes Him different from every other proposed god. He is not simply out there completely unfathomable, but came to us and revealed Himself.
So when the reformed propose that man is incapable of a genuine response to the gospel that is his own they deny the God of Scripture. And it is only through pretending that it is either wholly righteous or wholly corrupt and God cannot discern shades of gray accurately that we get this predicament of a mystery justice. My hope is ultimately on God's judgement, and I trust that because I accepted the gospel He extended both He and I have judged me righteous.

 

[Bbrdrd]

God had mercy upon the whole world. That is why we are saved through faith by God's free irrevocable gift of Salvation. That which Jesus sealed with his blood as the new covenant between humans and our Lord whose gifts are irrevocable.
We were all condemned in our sins as the human race prior to God's blessing as described in John 3:16. This is not something Calvinism/Lordship Salvation recognizes. The, all part.

I agree wholeheartedly that God shows mercy on all by extending the gospel. Yet I know from my own life that some receive special consideration and are put in a position where they will accept Christ. Had I been born to a Muslim family, I may have been stuck as a Muslim unable to consider the gospel fairly. Yet God saw fit to place me in a culturally Christian family. Even further, had I been in a tightly religious family I surely would have rebelled and I don't know if I would come back. I certainly cannot take credit for all of the factors that went into making me amenable to responding positively to the gospel. So in those circumstances, God ensured that I would have everything I needed to accept. So God chose me in a way that millions of others are not chosen.

 

[soggykitten]

I agree wholeheartedly that God shows mercy on all by extending the gospel. Yet I know from my own life that some receive special consideration and are put in a position where they will accept Christ. Had I been born to a Muslim family, I may have been stuck as a Muslim unable to consider the gospel fairly. Yet God saw fit to place me in a culturally Christian family. Even further, had I been in a tightly religious family I surely would have rebelled and I don't know if I would come back. I certainly cannot take credit for all of the factors that went into making me amenable to responding positively to the gospel. So in those circumstances, God ensured that I would have everything I needed to accept. So God chose me in a way that millions of others are not chosen.

I appreciate your point of view.
Personally, I don't think God chooses to damn people by putting them in situations where they are unable to hear the Gospel. That for me would be God contradicting himself as pertains to the issuance of his grace to the world. That whosoever.....

 

[soggykitten]

check the link i put -- chock full of dozens and dozens of scriptures

I saw the link you posted. Which is what prompted the observation with regard to if you had ever posted a link. Your post was entirely contradictory and petty. There is no conflict with a person posting a link that supports something they're hoping to convey to the public here, to that of not being a real person for doing so, as you implied.

 

[EleventhHour]

I agree wholeheartedly that God shows mercy on all by extending the gospel. Yet I know from my own life that some receive special consideration and are put in a position where they will accept Christ. Had I been born to a Muslim family, I may have been stuck as a Muslim unable to consider the gospel fairly. Yet God saw fit to place me in a culturally Christian family. Even further, had I been in a tightly religious family I surely would have rebelled and I don't know if I would come back. I certainly cannot take credit for all of the factors that went into making me amenable to responding positively to the gospel. So in those circumstances, God ensured that I would have everything I needed to accept. So God chose me in a way that millions of others are not chosen.

Your own experience is subjective and I would exercise caution using it as an example for how God works in the lives of others. God is not limited by a person's circumstances... and no .....one person is not chosen over someone else.