Calvinism And Predestination

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Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,817
113
#1
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,224
848
113
#2
thank you friend

i want to ask calvinists if there are any here some questions but first i want to say i have nothing personal against anyone and enjoy many calvinist pastors but i ask why does God say things like this if the reason people do evil is because God doesnt irresistably give them grace to save them from their total depravity?

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, they will each turn from their wicked ways; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."

Jeremiah 18:11
Now therefore, tell the men of Judah and residents of Jerusalem that this is what the LORD says: 'Behold, I am planning a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways, and correct your ways and deeds.'

1 Samuel 13:13
"You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

Isaiah 48:17-18
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you for your benefit,
who directs you in the way you should go.
If only you had paid attention to My commandments,
your peace would have been like a river,
and your righteousness like waves of the sea.

Psalm 81:13
If only My people would listen to Me, if Israel would follow My ways,


there are so many pleas like this. i dont know how calvinists can fit them to their doctrinal ideas? are all these pleas for repentance not genuine? God knows they cant repent cause of total depravity, unless He regenerates them first. so why does He ask that instead of just regenerating them if He wants them saved?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
#3
All are predestined for Hell. The only reason life continues to exist is because of the elect, and the
gathering in of the faithful.

Men are born separate from God so doomed to Hell. If they never come to faith, that is their
destiny. Some claim it is unfair to doom everyone to hell because of how they are born, surely
all should be given a fair choice. But all are given a choice, it is the knowledge of good and evil,
and people choose evil.

Can anyone truly choose God without knowing anything about Him?
Paul argues that creation itself testifies to the creator so none have an excuse.

My impression is only those called by God who hear the word have a chance to know the way.
And clearly though many hear few respond and smaller still fewer find the way to where Christ
intended us to come.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#4
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
God gave mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but his salvation in heaven is determined by the sovereign grace of God, without the help of man. Psalms 53:2-3, tells us what God saw, by his foreknowledge, that mankind would choose. That is why, in Eph 1, he choose a people before the foundation of the world, and had Christ to pay for their sins, so that he would have a people that would worship and praise him. God did not predestine anyone to hell, that was done by man with the liberty that God gave them to have free choice.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#5
thank you friend

i want to ask calvinists if there are any here some questions but first i want to say i have nothing personal against anyone and enjoy many calvinist pastors but i ask why does God say things like this if the reason people do evil is because God doesnt irresistably give them grace to save them from their total depravity?

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, they will each turn from their wicked ways; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."


Jeremiah 18:11
Now therefore, tell the men of Judah and residents of Jerusalem that this is what the LORD says: 'Behold, I am planning a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways, and correct your ways and deeds.'


1 Samuel 13:13
"You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.


Isaiah 48:17-18
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you for your benefit,
who directs you in the way you should go.
If only you had paid attention to My commandments,
your peace would have been like a river,
and your righteousness like waves of the sea.


Psalm 81:13
If only My people would listen to Me, if Israel would follow My ways,


there are so many pleas like this. i dont know how calvinists can fit them to their doctrinal ideas? are all these pleas for repentance not genuine? God knows they cant repent cause of total depravity, unless He regenerates them first. so why does He ask that instead of just regenerating them if He wants them saved?
All of the verses you have quoted have reference to "the house of Israel" which is actually "the house of Jacob" God's elect. God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel. Jesus instructed his apostles to go to the "lost sheep" (God's regenerated elect) of the house of Israel and preach to them the good news of the gospel.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,201
1,977
113
#6
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
Gods foreknowledge of what some will accept and what others will reject does not mean forced one to accept and another to reject.. God can predestine because He foreknows our entire lives before we have lived them.. He has known us all from the time of creation..

So to Him our eternal destiny is set in stone because He already knows what Way we shall decide to go..

We live in the present and have free will to decide either Way..

But God lives in Eternity knowing the Beginning and the End..
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#7
All are predestined for Hell. The only reason life continues to exist is because of the elect, and the
gathering in of the faithful.

Men are born separate from God so doomed to Hell. If they never come to faith, that is their
destiny. Some claim it is unfair to doom everyone to hell because of how they are born, surely
all should be given a fair choice. But all are given a choice, it is the knowledge of good and evil,
and people choose evil.

Can anyone truly choose God without knowing anything about Him?
Paul argues that creation itself testifies to the creator so none have an excuse.

My impression is only those called by God who hear the word have a chance to know the way.
And clearly though many hear few respond and smaller still fewer find the way to where Christ
intended us to come.
I differ with you slightly, God did not predestine anyone to hell. God gave mankind a free choice as to how they wanted to live their lives here on earth and it was by their own choice to choose the path to hell, Psalms 53:2-3. It was God's choice, by his sovereign grace, without the help of man, to save some of mankind to eternal heaven.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#8
Gods foreknowledge of what some will accept and what others will reject does not mean forced one to accept and another to reject.. God can predestine because He foreknows our entire lives before we have lived them.. He has known us all from the time of creation..

So to Him our eternal destiny is set in stone because He already knows what Way we shall decide to go..

We live in the present and have free will to decide either Way..

But God lives in Eternity knowing the Beginning and the End..
Read Psalms 53:2-3 and it will tell you what God saw by his foreknowledge as to what mankind would choose and none of them choose to seek him, no, not one. That is how mankind used his free choice that God granted him.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,201
1,977
113
#9
The natural man cannot choose God.. But under the moving of the Holy Spirit the natural man can choose to believe and trust God.. But as the Bible declares people can and have resisted the Holy Spirit, to their own destruction.. Many are called but few are chosen..
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#10
The natural man cannot choose God.. But under the moving of the Holy Spirit the natural man can choose to believe and trust God.. But as the Bible declares people can and have resisted the Holy Spirit, to their own destruction.. Many are called but few are chosen..
Can you give me a scripture that supports your statement "But under the moving of the Holy Spirit the natural man can choose to believe and trust God"?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,059
627
113
#11
I've posted this (below) before, but will put it here also, and may come back to this thread a little later:

[quoting that post]

Two things to consider when viewing this topic:

G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"

It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses

[the Matthew 22:1-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas Romans 8 is referring to "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]") so there's that distinction to be noted]

[end of that post]




...so where it speaks of "the Church which is His body" [Rom8] (not "the guests [plural]" [Matt22, etc] / for MK), this is what Ephesians 1:4 speaks to ("according as He hath chosen us IN HIM *BEFORE* the foundation of the world")... and is also what the predestination-type words pertain to (one receives the package deal, so to speak, at salvation: justification, sanctification, glorification--all is sure [for the believer]).

This is how I understand it.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,201
1,977
113
#12
Can you give me a scripture that supports your statement "But under the moving of the Holy Spirit the natural man can choose to believe and trust God"?
Well moving is the same as conviction.. The Holy Spirit convicts us and that is a part of the process of salvation We are moved to repent because the Holy Spirit convicts..

Now if the Holy Spirit does not act upon men then the following verse would make no sense..

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

If the Holy Spirit never acted upon people then how can Peter have said the above to the Jews who where hearing him say this on the day of penticost..
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,556
559
113
#13
The natural man cannot choose God.. But under the moving of the Holy Spirit the natural man can choose to believe and trust God.. But as the Bible declares people can and have resisted the Holy Spirit, to their own destruction.. Many are called but few are chosen..

But Ruth said: “Entreat me not to leave you, Or to turn back from following after you; For wherever you go, I will go; And wherever you lodge, I will lodge; Your people shall be my people, And your God, my God. Where you die, I will die, And there will I be buried. The Lord do so to me, and more also, If anything but death parts you and me.”
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,201
1,977
113
#14
But Ruth said: “Entreat me not to leave you, Or to turn back from following after you; For wherever you go, I will go; And wherever you lodge, I will lodge; Your people shall be my people, And your God, my God. Where you die, I will die, And there will I be buried. The Lord do so to me, and more also, If anything but death parts you and me.”
What has this to do with the issue being discussed?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#15
I've posted this (below) before, but will put it here also, and may come back to this thread a little later:

[quoting that post]

Two things to consider when viewing this topic:

G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"

It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses

[the Matthew 22:1-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas Romans 8 is referring to "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]") so there's that distinction to be noted]

[end of that post]




...so where it speaks of "the Church which is His body" [Rom8] (not "the guests [plural]" [Matt22, etc] / for MK), this is what Ephesians 1:4 speaks to ("according as He hath chosen us IN HIM *BEFORE* the foundation of the world")... and is also what the predestination-type words pertain to (one receives the package deal, so to speak, at salvation: justification, sanctification, glorification--all is sure [for the believer]).

This is how I understand it.
I believe the scriptures to teach that Christ's church is his kingdom on earth and that he has been reigning as King and high priest ever sense he set it up when he was here on earth. Those who are turned away are those that do not have on the wedding garment which if the righteousness of God. Romans 10 also explains that though they have a zeal of God (regenerated), but not according to knowledge, for they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, (the old law of works),
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,556
559
113
#16
Hey budman....nice to see ya again.
I think it's a misunderstanding of scripture in the tone of it. I can't see God being a righteous judge to one that never stood a chance.

Of course God knows the count or we would not have the deminsions of the new Jerusalem. What people forget is that God is not constraint to our time. In fact the whole book of revelation has passed as far as God is concerned. That's why he rested on the seventh day. Yep that far back.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
566
113
#18
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
The Bible say God is love, so God not predestined people to hell.

God offer forgiveness for people who believe in Him
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
#19
I differ with you slightly, God did not predestine anyone to hell. God gave mankind a free choice as to how they wanted to live their lives here on earth and it was by their own choice to choose the path to hell, Psalms 53:2-3. It was God's choice, by his sovereign grace, without the help of man, to save some of mankind to eternal heaven.
Summaries are difficult things. The world is separate from God, allowed to go its own way
within certain restrictions. The problem with knowledge of good and evil without communion with God
we are doomed. It is like giving a child a loaded gun. But I think this is the eternal dilemma, the only
way you will get saints is allowing man free will and choice, and a few will respond.

This does though put forward a picture of hell and torture for eternity for a fate people could not avoid.
But I mitigate this with a belief it is actually destruction of disfunctional people who get lost and broken
along the way, so there is nothing left, just a husk. But then that is what we are, just potentials of eternity,
not actualised, unless we open up to the Lord.

And is love so poor that none should be given the opportunity to taste and see?
This is the sense of the lake of fire is the conclusion, or else you have a view hell is over flowing with
tortured individuals while heaven is full of the few saints. But look at Israel and its history. It is mostly
rebellious idolatrous individuals living their own way. Why does one have to resolve this question?
Because children, the ignorant, those without the capability to understand yet are fully human, how can
they be guilty? Jesus's answer is destruction, but they tasted life and enjoyed that which they could.

Some have said such a view means atheists get off ok, they get what they wanted.
How can anyone compare eternity with Christ, with total destruction, while being completely flawed and
empty. There is only one place to be, with the Lord, Amen.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#20
Well moving is the same as conviction.. The Holy Spirit convicts us and that is a part of the process of salvation We are moved to repent because the Holy Spirit convicts..

Now if the Holy Spirit does not act upon men then the following verse would make no sense..

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

If the Holy Spirit never acted upon people then how can Peter have said the above to the Jews who where hearing him say this on the day of penticost..
Acts 7 verse 6 God is talking about the children of Abraham, his elect, when he refers to them as "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears. They have already been regenerated and are not just natural men, void of the Holy Spirit, The indwelling Holy Spirit does not act upon the natural man that cannot discern spiritual things.