Calvinism And Predestination

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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,506
515
113
#21
The Bible say God is love, so God not predestined people to hell.

God offer forgiveness for people who believe in Him

More importantly he offers forgiveness to those who do not yet know him.

For while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#22
The Bible say God is love, so God not predestined people to hell.
God offer forgiveness for people who believe in Him
Nice story. But how far do people understand love, and how far do they see Christ, to be called a
fair shot at the process. And what about those who come to a faith of some sort, but something
puts them off, and then fall away. Are they really ok? Or what about a child of two who has an
accident and is gone. Are they promoted to heaven no matter what, because they were young they
are innocent and pure.

Some claim God sees the heart, the heart that is rotten and evil and never has goodness in it, so
people will be forgiven if they have a spark of faith, even when they did not know God really.

I end up saying I know God and I trust Him. I have seen some know as much as myself and walk
away, and those who know nothing, search things out and come to faith. Is this calling or predestination,
choice or Gods overruling?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,118
220
63
#23
Summaries are difficult things. The world is separate from God, allowed to go its own way
within certain restrictions. The problem with knowledge of good and evil without communion with God
we are doomed. It is like giving a child a loaded gun. But I think this is the eternal dilemma, the only
way you will get saints is allowing man free will and choice, and a few will respond.

This does though put forward a picture of hell and torture for eternity for a fate people could not avoid.
But I mitigate this with a belief it is actually destruction of disfunctional people who get lost and broken
along the way, so there is nothing left, just a husk. But then that is what we are, just potentials of eternity,
not actualised, unless we open up to the Lord.

And is love so poor that none should be given the opportunity to taste and see?
This is the sense of the lake of fire is the conclusion, or else you have a view hell is over flowing with
tortured individuals while heaven is full of the few saints. But look at Israel and its history. It is mostly
rebellious idolatrous individuals living their own way. Why does one have to resolve this question?
Because children, the ignorant, those without the capability to understand yet are fully human, how can
they be guilty? Jesus's answer is destruction, but they tasted life and enjoyed that which they could.

Some have said such a view means atheists get off ok, they get what they wanted.
How can anyone compare eternity with Christ, with total destruction, while being completely flawed and
empty. There is only one place to be, with the Lord, Amen.
It seems to me, that you are giving capability to the natural man that he does not posses. According to 1 Cor 2:14 the natural man will not feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. In my interpretation of the natural man, he will not respond to anything of a spiritual nature until he has been changed in regeneration and given a new heart that can discern spiritual things. What is your thinking on this matter?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
5,166
3,606
113
65
lawton ok
#24
I can't understand the rhetoric because Jesus commissioned all Christians to preach the good news to all nations and all creatures on the earth. If some are damned from the beginning wouldn't trying to evangelize them be a waste of time?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#25
It seems to me, that you are giving capability to the natural man that he does not posses. According to 1 Cor 2:14 the natural man will not feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. In my interpretation of the natural man, he will not respond to anything of a spiritual nature until he has been changed in regeneration and given a new heart that can discern spiritual things. What is your thinking on this matter?
I think all men are born with a heart of love. This is the image of God we have.
It gets hurt and damaged as we grow, and we hide and shut it out becoming more
and more inflexible and able to change because of the contradictions we build up.

When Gods word is preached it speaks to the love we have, if it is not completely shut down.
Now if we have shut love out, then nothing will get through. If we are listening and open,
then there is hope. New life comes into being as we dwell on Christs words.
But only the elect truly respond. According to Jesus others grasp some of the promise, but it
gets snatched away again. Only in the good soil does it take root and grow.

So I do not differentiate between the natural man and the spiritual man. I differentiate between
hearts of stone and hearts that are willing to change and listen.
 
#26
thank you friend

i want to ask calvinists if there are any here some questions but first i want to say i have nothing personal against anyone and enjoy many calvinist pastors but i ask why does God say things like this if the reason people do evil is because God doesnt irresistably give them grace to save them from their total depravity?

Jeremiah 36:3
Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, they will each turn from their wicked ways; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin."


Jeremiah 18:11
Now therefore, tell the men of Judah and residents of Jerusalem that this is what the LORD says: 'Behold, I am planning a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways, and correct your ways and deeds.'


1 Samuel 13:13
"You have done a foolish thing," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.


Isaiah 48:17-18
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you for your benefit,
who directs you in the way you should go.
If only you had paid attention to My commandments,
your peace would have been like a river,
and your righteousness like waves of the sea.


Psalm 81:13
If only My people would listen to Me, if Israel would follow My ways,


there are so many pleas like this. i dont know how calvinists can fit them to their doctrinal ideas? are all these pleas for repentance not genuine? God knows they cant repent cause of total depravity, unless He regenerates them first. so why does He ask that instead of just regenerating them if He wants them saved?
"but i ask why does God say things like this if the reason people do evil is because God doesnt irresistably give them grace to save them from their total depravity?"

It is because they do not see "Irresistable Grace" as being Irresistable! Hence the "Armenian" approach to "the faith."
Hence also, the "Soconian" approach, which pretty much goes right along with the Armenian.
The Socinians held to a rationalistic approach to Scripture and to faith. This philosophical approach, especially in regard to biblical doctrine, declares that all religious matters must be fully reconcilable with human reason, and that theological matters pertaining to the nature of God cannot be beyond the finite understanding of the human mind.

IOW- Faith=OIL, verses, Empiricism=WATER!

They just DON'T mix!
Never have? Never SHALL!


There WAS a time, WAY BACK when, when people would "fall ill." Which people who were not ill, would inquire, as to "what SIN did you COMMIT against God?"
Whereas, TODAY? One doesn't ask God, "what have I done?" They go ask a Dr.

 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#28
I can't understand the rhetoric because Jesus commissioned all Christians to preach the good news to all nations and all creatures on the earth. If some are damned from the beginning wouldn't trying to evangelize them be a waste of time?
We are called to evangelise all no matter their distinction, and until we preach only then does the
soil show itself. And the damned only have themselves to blame, and will be treated no differently
than the elect. In the justice of God, this is just and true.

The question is how lost are the lost? And the answer is impossibly unless the Lord calls. But the
real nature of this lostness is difficult to quantify. The lost can be what seems to be believers but
those who have a heart of stone, and nothing gets through but status and power matter more.

And the Lord really knows the difficulties but then He desires that we might be co-heirs with Christ
through whom all things are created. There is no higher place or honour, so equally no greater difficult
position to be worthy of and to find through Christ. But for some it appears like it is a lucky ticket found
in a refuse bin at the back of a nightclub, while drunk and having fun, and the future is sorted no worries
and no life change, hic, burpppp, thats the God of love at work. :cry:
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
2,187
480
83
#30
I believe the scriptures to teach that Christ's church is his kingdom on earth and that he has been reigning as King and high priest ever sense he set it up when he was here on earth.
Since you quoted my post, I will attempt to respond briefly, here.

I believe that where it says in Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7 "the kingdom of the heavens is at hand," that this was at some point during His earthly ministry no longer being said (I believe it pertains to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, promised to Israel, and will again be "the invitation" [Matt24:14,26:13;Rev19:9 (distinct from 19:7);Matt22:8-14] that will go out DURING the future tribulation-period/7-yrs [that is, FOLLOWING our Rapture]; and that it will be the believing/faithful remnant of Israel ["the wise"Dan12:1-4,10/"the least of these My brethren"Matt25:40, etc], having come to faith WITHIN the trib, who will be the ones DOING the inviting TO the MK [comp. Matt22:[7]8 with Rev1:1/4:1/7:3, as I've mentioned in other posts]); and that is to what "the guests [plural]" pertain

Those who are turned away are those that do not have on the wedding garment which if the righteousness of God.
I believe this pertains to "the guests [plural]" rather than "the bride/wife [singular]" who is not being referred to in Matthew 22:2-14 (and the other wedding FEAST/SUPPER parables); the distinction between Rev19:9 (not aorist and in heaven) and 19:7(aorist, and in heaven, at that point in the chronology)--the wedding FEAST/SUPPER following that point in the chronology, that is, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, per Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal! (this means He is "returning" as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, at that point in the chronology, Rev19--and this is when the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" parables then pick up the next scene in the chronology [on the earth])

Romans 10 also explains that though they have a zeal of God (regenerated), but not according to knowledge, for they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, (the old law of works),
I do not believe that their having a "zeal for God" means they were "regenerated" (I consider Paul, before his Damascus road experience, to have had a zeal for God, but he wasn't saved)
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
5,166
3,606
113
65
lawton ok
#31
I guess it all depends on weather or not you believe in unconditional salvation starting when we first come to believe. All of our sins past, present and future are taken away when we are washed in his blood. This is what I came to believe and in my flawed human mind and it helps keep me faithful to the risen Lord.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
6,709
433
83
#32
Nice story. But how far do people understand love, and how far do they see Christ, to be called a
fair shot at the process. And what about those who come to a faith of some sort, but something
puts them off, and then fall away. Are they really ok? Or what about a child of two who has an
accident and is gone. Are they promoted to heaven no matter what, because they were young they
are innocent and pure.

Some claim God sees the heart, the heart that is rotten and evil and never has goodness in it, so
people will be forgiven if they have a spark of faith, even when they did not know God really.

I end up saying I know God and I trust Him. I have seen some know as much as myself and walk
away, and those who know nothing, search things out and come to faith. Is this calling or predestination,
choice or Gods overruling?
I do not know every thing but for sure the Bible say God is love.
God forgive if people believe in Him and ask Him to come to their heart

If people reject Him than it is their choice to go to hell

If people accept Him than change their mind to reject Him than go to hell.

All I know is if we accept Him we go to heaven, if we reject a Him we go to hell.

People have disagreement in how people accept or reject

Calvinis believe if you believe, that because God make you believe, god chose you to believe

Armenian believe freewill

But both believe that only people that accept Jesus save. So the disagreement is in how you believe,

I believe

Whosoever believe in Jesus will be chose to go to heaven

John 3:16
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
2,187
480
83
#33
^ I disagree that they were already "regenerated" ^ [this comment was supposed to go along with the end of my last post :D ]
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#34
I do not know every thing but for sure the Bible say God is love.
God forgive if people believe in Him and ask Him to come to their heart

If people reject Him than it is their choice to go to hell

If people accept Him than change their mind to reject Him than go to hell.

All I know is if we accept Him we go to heaven, if we reject a Him we go to hell.

People have disagreement in how people accept or reject

Calvinis believe if you believe, that because God make you believe, god chose you to believe

Armenian believe freewill

But both believe that only people that accept Jesus save. So the disagreement is in how you believe,

I believe

Whosoever believe in Jesus will be chose to go to heaven

John 3:16
You hit on a good point. To believe we go to heaven. But the way you mention it is like a single
one off transaction. But like a baby being born it is a life long adventure with change and growth.

For Gods elect I think this is very straightforward. For 2nd and 3rd generation believers it is much
more difficult, if they spend their life being conformist and then discover they never actually knew
themselves. Unravelling sin, repentance, self discovery, truth, emotional openness and vulnerability are
complex dilemmas. Religion and ones own choices often get very confusing.

I get the impression we think this road is an event, when it is growing towards the light or fading away.
At the end it becomes a lot clearer, but in the moment we feel things are very established and unmovable.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
6,673
2,363
113
#35
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
if you have a brain and a will, you are not predestined for anything but making the right choices

every day

make the right choices
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
6,673
2,363
113
#36
Summaries are difficult things. The world is separate from God, allowed to go its own way
within certain restrictions. The problem with knowledge of good and evil without communion with God
we are doomed. It is like giving a child a loaded gun. But I think this is the eternal dilemma, the only
way you will get saints is allowing man free will and choice, and a few will respond.

This does though put forward a picture of hell and torture for eternity for a fate people could not avoid.
But I mitigate this with a belief it is actually destruction of disfunctional people who get lost and broken
along the way, so there is nothing left, just a husk. But then that is what we are, just potentials of eternity,
not actualised, unless we open up to the Lord.

And is love so poor that none should be given the opportunity to taste and see?
This is the sense of the lake of fire is the conclusion, or else you have a view hell is over flowing with
tortured individuals while heaven is full of the few saints. But look at Israel and its history. It is mostly
rebellious idolatrous individuals living their own way. Why does one have to resolve this question?
Because children, the ignorant, those without the capability to understand yet are fully human, how can
they be guilty? Jesus's answer is destruction, but they tasted life and enjoyed that which they could.

Some have said such a view means atheists get off ok, they get what they wanted.
How can anyone compare eternity with Christ, with total destruction, while being completely flawed and
empty. There is only one place to be, with the Lord, Amen.

if it is 'allowed' in the sense that God does not participate in a personal way (which I firmly believe He most certainly does)
then I doubt He would have sent His Son

the MOMENT...almost the exact moment...of the sin in the Garden,God presented a plan that would include salvation for whosoever will

what is this fatalistic approach to the gospel?

I just really do not get that at all. I have read the Bible from cover to cover and studied much of it and continue so to do and do not get this picture of a god who selects certain people to be His and sends the rest to hell

like someone picking chocolates out of a box or something

I utterly reject this view of God.

I am also not to keen on your philosophical musings. not that you need to care about that :cautious:
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#37
I guess it all depends on weather or not you believe in unconditional salvation starting when we first come to believe. All of our sins past, present and future are taken away when we are washed in his blood. This is what I came to believe and in my flawed human mind and it helps keep me faithful to the risen Lord.
An aspect of total forgiveness is part of abiding and trusting in Christ.
No matter the scrapes and bad situations we get ourselves into, Jesus is there
if we call and humble ourselves to show His way through.

Sin has never been the issue, it is our focus and defending love in our hearts that is our problem.
Sin is a symptom of a deeper failure to acknowledge our frailty and limited nature and rights.
With a heart change and acknowledgement of the nature of God and the cross, this changes.

To the overly protected and dismissive, this is all mumbo jumbo, or psycho babble, but then
they refuse to acknowledge they need to move and become different, so a form of faith that
allows them to stay as they are and still honours the needs they have is their first port of call.
The fact this denies Jesus and His claim over our lives, and everything we are, does not register,
and is air brushed out of His ministry.

It is why theology is less important than picking enemies, un-Christ like behaviour and language
coupled with a desire to turn everything into a binary battle rather than a place of encouragement
and praise of Gods work in our lives. God bless you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#38
if it is 'allowed' in the sense that God does not participate in a personal way (which I firmly believe He most certainly does)
then I doubt He would have sent His Son
the MOMENT...almost the exact moment...of the sin in the Garden,God presented a plan that would include salvation for whosoever will
what is this fatalistic approach to the gospel?
I just really do not get that at all. I have read the Bible from cover to cover and studied much of it and continue so to do and do not get this picture of a god who selects certain people to be His and sends the rest to hell
like someone picking chocolates out of a box or something
I utterly reject this view of God.
I am also not to keen on your philosophical musings. not that you need to care about that :cautious:
People choose where they go. But let us say God intervenes in a particular way but the outcome is
the same, what is the point of intervention. From Gods perspective, most will choose their way and
refuse any other.

What I am declaring is God does what can be done. He is not unfairly dooming people and on a whim
choosing others, His heart is in saving all, but He can only achieve what is possible. There is no other choice
involved. Our failure is in seeing how lost the world truly is, and how simply people could find God.

Listen to God.

15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
Matt 13

I have spoken to thousands of people and few would regard Jesus as more than a nice moralist.
My parents spent their whole lives in church, yet the words seemed to never get further than a
nice story. I could give you many reasons why, but mainly because they never understood themselves
as sinners in need of love and healing, just as people doing religion, and something needed to happen.

Look at Israel. And I mean really look at them coming out of Egypt. God the creator delivered them out
of the hand of the Pharoah, parted the red sea, a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar smoke by night, led
them forward. They were given the law by which to walk in Gods blessing. But no, this was not enough,
so at the first moment, lets party, have a golden calf, and let rip.

Man without a heart change is just a worldly person waiting to enjoy themselves when no one is looking.
Do you think people such as these will enter heaven, or are really interested in eternal, emotional and
spiritual issues? Even in churches with the redeemed or here on this forum, walking like Jesus is no
simple issue or principle. Yet we are the redeemed, we have decades of walking with Jesus.

The fact Jesus says some find Him truly is the biggest miracle of all.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
6,673
2,363
113
#39
People choose where they go. But let us say God intervenes in a particular way but the outcome is
the same, what is the point of intervention. From Gods perspective, most will choose their way and
refuse any other.

What I am declaring is God does what can be done. He is not unfairly dooming people and on a whim
choosing others, His heart is in saving all, but He can only achieve what is possible. There is no other choice
involved. Our failure is in seeing how lost the world truly is, and how simply people could find God.

Listen to God.

15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
Matt 13

I have spoken to thousands of people and few would regard Jesus as more than a nice moralist.
My parents spent their whole lives in church, yet the words seemed to never get further than a
nice story. I could give you many reasons why, but mainly because they never understood themselves
as sinners in need of love and healing, just as people doing religion, and something needed to happen.

Look at Israel. And I mean really look at them coming out of Egypt. God the creator delivered them out
of the hand of the Pharoah, parted the red sea, a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar smoke by night, led
them forward. They were given the law by which to walk in Gods blessing. But no, this was not enough,
so at the first moment, lets party, have a golden calf, and let rip.

Man without a heart change is just a worldly person waiting to enjoy themselves when no one is looking.
Do you think people such as these will enter heaven, or are really interested in eternal, emotional and
spiritual issues? Even in churches with the redeemed or here on this forum, walking like Jesus is no
simple issue or principle. Yet we are the redeemed, we have decades of walking with Jesus.

The fact Jesus says some find Him truly is the biggest miracle of all.

I disagree. I honestly just disagree

sorry about your parents...that is really sad.

oh I have looked at Israel many many times and I have discovered that I am actually Israel

maybe both our views are valid. you have one experience and I another

we have ...all of us...our own personalities and perhaps, I have thought at times, God speaks to those as much as anything else

it's an interesting though

I have hope...I expect you actually do also
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,909
878
113
#40
I disagree. I honestly just disagree
sorry about your parents...that is really sad.
oh I have looked at Israel many many times and I have discovered that I am actually Israel
maybe both our views are valid. you have one experience and I another
we have ...all of us...our own personalities and perhaps, I have thought at times, God speaks to those as much as anything else
it's an interesting though
I have hope...I expect you actually do also
I think you hit the nail on the head. Our perspectives and experiences often lead us to
the place we are at in terms of outlook. And as you say, I think both are true, because
they reflect certain people and certain situations.

I witnessed years ago to one lady, and she just opened up to the Lord and accepted Him.
It was like knocking on a door. I also showed a christian film to 40 odd people at a time,
and preached at the end. This sowed a seed that lead to a mini revival, because the word
spoke in the right way. I have read of revivals where everyone comes to faith with great
conviction, yet this is quite rare.

And here on cc I would have expected encouragement to walk in the ways of Jesus and to
share love and truth of His word, yet I find some pick fights, want to stamp out and ban
such expressions, which is so odd, considering this is just Jesus's word. The pharisees were
so close to getting it right, yet they killed Jesus. I get the feeling some would similarly do
the same to me if they could, lol. They certainly get angry enough. And this does not worry
them, that so much sin could erupt from talking about Gods word and His plain commands.