No I didn't mean you aren't humble. I meant we as in we who are explaining Calvinism should be more humble when presenting an explanation. Some of us don't understand that its ok to say 'I don't know' to a question. We would rather make it seem as if we know it all. You already know that's not true....
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I would like others to respond to post #70. This answer to my question is one of the most shocking things I have ever read in my life! I can't imagine serving a God who would condemn my son to hell before he was even born!
I understand He would know before the child's birth, but to actually want some to go to hell - the thought blows me away. The least a God like that could do is warn us before conception so we would know when the time was appropriate to have a child that was not condemned to hell.
I understand He would know before the child's birth, but to actually want some to go to hell - the thought blows me away. The least a God like that could do is warn us before conception so we would know when the time was appropriate to have a child that was not condemned to hell.
Indeed, a shocking and an unsubstantiated claim. It completely slanders God's justice. Consider these: "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 19:14). "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16).
God did not predestine anyone for hell; the truth is that His grace offers salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) but those who are under His eternal condemnation are in that state because they rejected Him.
God did not predestine anyone for hell; the truth is that His grace offers salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) but those who are under His eternal condemnation are in that state because they rejected Him.
Yet the Scripture does say...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
As well as...
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Those two passages clearly teach that God does not want ANY to perish. Repentance (2Pet 3:9) is surely the means by which one yields to grace teaching of godliness (Tit 2:12, 2Pet 3:11).
John 3:16 is within this context...
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The condemnation is a refusal to abide in the light.
Here is a question for you.
Why would Paul BEG people be reconciled to God if such reconciliation HAD NOTHING to do with an act of free agency?
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
We Pray - G1189 - deomai
Middle voice of G1210; to beg (as binding oneself), that is, petition: - beseech, pray (to), make request. Compare G4441.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
As well as...
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Those two passages clearly teach that God does not want ANY to perish. Repentance (2Pet 3:9) is surely the means by which one yields to grace teaching of godliness (Tit 2:12, 2Pet 3:11).
John 3:16 is within this context...
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The condemnation is a refusal to abide in the light.
Here is a question for you.
Why would Paul BEG people be reconciled to God if such reconciliation HAD NOTHING to do with an act of free agency?
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
We Pray - G1189 - deomai
Middle voice of G1210; to beg (as binding oneself), that is, petition: - beseech, pray (to), make request. Compare G4441.
Cite the whole thing please. 
For God.....The greatest being
So loved......The greatest compassion
The World....The greatest need
That He gave....The greatest donor
His only begotten Son....The greatest gift
That whosoever.....The greatest invitation
Believeth....The greatest response
In Him....The greatest object of one's belief
Should not perish....The greatest escape
But have everlasting life...The greatest reward
Ten points that you can give to everyone you meet. Takes less than a minute. Lasts forever.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
2 Peter 3:9...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Hard line Calvinism does not work. Hard line Arminianism does not work. One is not saved against his will and one is not saved by his works. God's grace is greater than either and both.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hard line Calvinism does not work. Hard line Arminianism does not work. One is not saved against his will and one is not saved by his works. God's grace is greater than either and both.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You agree with those scriptures within the context of a Reformed Theological System and not within the Whole Counsel of God.
The Bible is a harmonious whole not a list of isolated proof texts.
Did not Cain have a choice?
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Your doctrine leaves Cain to a fate of "doing evil by necessity." You would teach that grace was not available to Cain which means that Cain's ruin was God's fault.
You entire theological system BLAMES GOD for man's rebellion. This shift of the blame from man to God in turn absolves man of ANY RESPONSIBILITY to choose righteousness.
When I go through your post history there is nothing in there imploring people to forsake evil and turn to God. Zero! You repudiate such an idea because in your mind "God does it all APART from men doing ANYTHING." Thus everything you write is within the context of DO NOTHING and just WAIT FOR GOD TO DO IT.
What did Jesus say...
Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Is that what you preach? Do you preach that people should repent and turn to God and do works worthy of repentance?
You don't preach anything remotely close to that. You preach "God does it all" and the "elect are the elect" and there is "nothing you can do about it."
Thus you preach FATALISM.
The early church didn't preach what you teach. Your theology has clearly been influenced by the fatalism put forth by Augustine in the fourth century. Perhaps you have never read Augustine but have read those who uphold many of the tenets of his theological system.
Both John Calvin and Martin Luther were staunch adherents to Augustine's ideas.
Here is what Justin Martyr wrote about such things...
Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 7
Saint Justin Martyr: Second Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)
The Bible is a harmonious whole not a list of isolated proof texts.
Did not Cain have a choice?
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Your doctrine leaves Cain to a fate of "doing evil by necessity." You would teach that grace was not available to Cain which means that Cain's ruin was God's fault.
You entire theological system BLAMES GOD for man's rebellion. This shift of the blame from man to God in turn absolves man of ANY RESPONSIBILITY to choose righteousness.
When I go through your post history there is nothing in there imploring people to forsake evil and turn to God. Zero! You repudiate such an idea because in your mind "God does it all APART from men doing ANYTHING." Thus everything you write is within the context of DO NOTHING and just WAIT FOR GOD TO DO IT.
What did Jesus say...
Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Is that what you preach? Do you preach that people should repent and turn to God and do works worthy of repentance?
You don't preach anything remotely close to that. You preach "God does it all" and the "elect are the elect" and there is "nothing you can do about it."
Thus you preach FATALISM.
The early church didn't preach what you teach. Your theology has clearly been influenced by the fatalism put forth by Augustine in the fourth century. Perhaps you have never read Augustine but have read those who uphold many of the tenets of his theological system.
Both John Calvin and Martin Luther were staunch adherents to Augustine's ideas.
Here is what Justin Martyr wrote about such things...
Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 7
Saint Justin Martyr: Second Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
What does that last part that I bolded in red mean?
The bible is a harmonious whole and it should draw a person to some sort of conclusion. You should repent. You should try to become perfect before God.
Your conclusion after trying shouldn't be Yay I did it. I made my heart pure and noble before God now I am deserving of His Good and Perfect seed, the Word.
Your conclusion should be dang it, I suck. Really super bad. For a really, really long time. Lord will you help me???
What does that last part that I bolded in red mean?
The bible is a harmonious whole and it should draw a person to some sort of conclusion. You should repent. You should try to become perfect before God.
Your conclusion after trying shouldn't be Yay I did it. I made my heart pure and noble before God now I am deserving of His Good and Perfect seed, the Word.
Your conclusion should be dang it, I suck. Really super bad. For a really, really long time. Lord will you help me???
Your conjecture of God predestining people to hell violates His character.
If you examine the WHOLE counsel of God's word you will see that God has given everyone (not just the elects) a chance to life through His Son's sacrifice for He is no respecter of persons (1 John 2:2, John 3:16). One has to access this saving grace through FAITH in His Son otherwise they stand condemned. If predestination to hell is true then 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, Acts 17:30, etc., are wrong. God cannot possibly command all men everywhere to repent since He predestined some to hell. Therefore He must be authoring sin.
What rubbish!
It simply means APART from God you can do nothing. It doesn't mean DO NOTHING and GOD WILL DO IT FOR YOU.
In other words a light globe need to be plugged into the electric socket for it to function correctly. It must be tapped into the power source. Likewise we must be tapped into God in order to produce fruit.
Why say this...
Have I ever said such a thing? No I have not. That is a strawman fiction applied to my position. Turning from evil and yielding to God does not make one "deserving" of anything. It is simply the reasonable and expected thing to do. God's ways are right and to be in rebellion to His ways is foolishness.
SavedbyGrace teaches FATALISM. He teaches that all people are "born totally depraved/evil/wicked" and thus by nature (not choice) these people do wicked things. He teaches that God has chosen some of these totally depraved/evil/wicked people in order to save them from this state. God then reprograms them and thus MAKES them start to do better (not a complete reprogram mind you because the inherent corruption still remains).
I notice Grandpa that instead of directly addressing the things I actually write you concoct this "self righteous strawman" and then contend against that. Why do you do that?
Was the Prodigal Son self righteous in CHOOSING to forsake the pig pen and return to his father? Was that a self righteous act of "hey look at me and how good I am, I deserve your favour father." If you are going to attribute that strawman to me then why not to the Prodigal Son?
Why not attribute that sentiment to Nineveh?
Was Noah all proud and self righteous over building the ark?
What about Abel and his sacrifice, we he all "hey God look at me, I am so good, look how great I am, look at what I did?"
No, I don't think so. I think those are all examples of people who had submitted themselves humbly to the will of God and were thus not in rebellion.
In other words a light globe need to be plugged into the electric socket for it to function correctly. It must be tapped into the power source. Likewise we must be tapped into God in order to produce fruit.
Why say this...
Have I ever said such a thing? No I have not. That is a strawman fiction applied to my position. Turning from evil and yielding to God does not make one "deserving" of anything. It is simply the reasonable and expected thing to do. God's ways are right and to be in rebellion to His ways is foolishness.
SavedbyGrace teaches FATALISM. He teaches that all people are "born totally depraved/evil/wicked" and thus by nature (not choice) these people do wicked things. He teaches that God has chosen some of these totally depraved/evil/wicked people in order to save them from this state. God then reprograms them and thus MAKES them start to do better (not a complete reprogram mind you because the inherent corruption still remains).
I notice Grandpa that instead of directly addressing the things I actually write you concoct this "self righteous strawman" and then contend against that. Why do you do that?
Was the Prodigal Son self righteous in CHOOSING to forsake the pig pen and return to his father? Was that a self righteous act of "hey look at me and how good I am, I deserve your favour father." If you are going to attribute that strawman to me then why not to the Prodigal Son?
Why not attribute that sentiment to Nineveh?
Was Noah all proud and self righteous over building the ark?
What about Abel and his sacrifice, we he all "hey God look at me, I am so good, look how great I am, look at what I did?"
No, I don't think so. I think those are all examples of people who had submitted themselves humbly to the will of God and were thus not in rebellion.