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Why doesn't anyone want to answer my question about why we are debating about man's interpretation of scripture when there is enough just understanding what scripture itself it saying to us?
Also, I see poster after poster giving scripture without once thinking about how that scripture fits into the unity of scripture, how it fits into the overall scheme of God's plan for us. It is as if they don't believe in one God as the author of all scripture, using 40 different men to translate.
What are you trying to gain in understanding God by talking about one or two men's interpretation of that? We all see darkly.
Luther is an example of a leader of theology. He was used by God to open up personal relationships to God. Yet this man advocated murder of rabbis before he died, and surely you know that murder is not of God. We can thank God for Luther in opening eyes, but we must not follow him as we follow scripture. We must not follow any man, only Christ and God.
Also, I see poster after poster giving scripture without once thinking about how that scripture fits into the unity of scripture, how it fits into the overall scheme of God's plan for us. It is as if they don't believe in one God as the author of all scripture, using 40 different men to translate.
What are you trying to gain in understanding God by talking about one or two men's interpretation of that? We all see darkly.
Luther is an example of a leader of theology. He was used by God to open up personal relationships to God. Yet this man advocated murder of rabbis before he died, and surely you know that murder is not of God. We can thank God for Luther in opening eyes, but we must not follow him as we follow scripture. We must not follow any man, only Christ and God.
J
I agree. Calvin also had people banished and advocated deaths when he was the "pope of Geneva." He imposed some very strict rules.
the thing that gets me with Calvinism is that I have never seen a group of Christians more forceful with what they believe. I am not talking about people on this forum, but people I have encountered in real life. I would hear "Calvin this" and "the Institutes" that. It honestly became rather frightening with what ardent zeal I saw for Calvinism rather than for Christ.
I remember attending groups where nothing was talked about except the 5 points of Calvinism and every sermon, in a college bible group mind you, related to Calvin's doctrines. People got up and left it was so bad. I was eventually shunned and "unfriended" because I didn't accept it.
Most Calvinists also don't believe in the gifts of the spirit or healing or deliverance for today. John MacArthur, a Calvinist, has basically said every charismatic is going to Hell (there are plenty of errors in the Charismatic Movement, but to damn them all to hell seems extreme).
My concern is how to deal with the forceful zeal of Calvinists and the rising divide I see between Calvinists and other Christians.
the thing that gets me with Calvinism is that I have never seen a group of Christians more forceful with what they believe. I am not talking about people on this forum, but people I have encountered in real life. I would hear "Calvin this" and "the Institutes" that. It honestly became rather frightening with what ardent zeal I saw for Calvinism rather than for Christ.
I remember attending groups where nothing was talked about except the 5 points of Calvinism and every sermon, in a college bible group mind you, related to Calvin's doctrines. People got up and left it was so bad. I was eventually shunned and "unfriended" because I didn't accept it.
Most Calvinists also don't believe in the gifts of the spirit or healing or deliverance for today. John MacArthur, a Calvinist, has basically said every charismatic is going to Hell (there are plenty of errors in the Charismatic Movement, but to damn them all to hell seems extreme).
My concern is how to deal with the forceful zeal of Calvinists and the rising divide I see between Calvinists and other Christians.
D
Well thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I do like the five points but they should be in perspective to the teachings of Christ. I guess in itself, without having any experience with Calvinists, I like the first point, total depravity - because it hit home with me about how my rebellion left me almost dead before the spirit moved inside me. I guess I'm weary of anyone becoming stuck in the many different doctrinal philosophies out there - we need to be discerning and not heavy handed. Many things (like medicine) have value but in too high of a dose, they can be toxic.
J
I had one Calvinist not even believe I was saved, even though I had been going to the bible study group for over a year (the members knew I was a practicing Christian). He didn't doubt my salvation because of any particular sin I was committing, but because he didn't know if God had "elected" or "pre-destined" me.
I remember taking a history class about the Reformation and the "Protestant Work Ethic" came about, because of Calvinism. You see, under election, as it was taught, no one could actually know whether they were saved or not. No one could go inside the mind of God and figure out if they were predestined or not. It was no longer "believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and be saved," but rather "only God knows if you are chosen."
so the early Calvinists worked very diligently in order to show "fruit" or "proofs" that they were saved. Therefore prosperity was soon associated with God's approval in that he had chosen you.
There are Calvinists today who are worried about their salvation, because they don't know if God chose them or not. They are literally worried that they might be a "vessel of wrath" that God has made to glorify himself by sending them to hell.
on the flip side, some Calvinists believe they are chosen and can therefore commit some heinous sins, because no evil they do will take away their salvation.
I just have seen a lot of abuses of the 5 points and the subsequent harm that some Calvinists believe, because they value the 5 points higher than the rest of Scripture.
I remember taking a history class about the Reformation and the "Protestant Work Ethic" came about, because of Calvinism. You see, under election, as it was taught, no one could actually know whether they were saved or not. No one could go inside the mind of God and figure out if they were predestined or not. It was no longer "believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and be saved," but rather "only God knows if you are chosen."
so the early Calvinists worked very diligently in order to show "fruit" or "proofs" that they were saved. Therefore prosperity was soon associated with God's approval in that he had chosen you.
There are Calvinists today who are worried about their salvation, because they don't know if God chose them or not. They are literally worried that they might be a "vessel of wrath" that God has made to glorify himself by sending them to hell.
on the flip side, some Calvinists believe they are chosen and can therefore commit some heinous sins, because no evil they do will take away their salvation.
I just have seen a lot of abuses of the 5 points and the subsequent harm that some Calvinists believe, because they value the 5 points higher than the rest of Scripture.
D
Yes, I'm with you there too. I think some of the more harsher language in the bible can be taken out of context and probably has been adulterated. Or sometimes we just lose the value in the message as our culture changes and we understand things differently. For things that confuse me, I leave it sit. I don't push it. There may be many verses and stories that I read that do not speak to me as some of the others do. I do know that God is first, a loving God.
S
I find that most misconceptions of Calvin and other reformed theologians is because of certain lack of historical and/or scriptural understanding. No one has to be a theologian to understand it, even i am not theologically advanced. I will be honest, I do not enjoy talking about it very often because of the misconceptions that arises from others...
Instead of throwing out ideas that don't fit our world view, why not search out the matter? But many who detest it, or even disagree is most likely because they don't want to see something that doesn't fit in their agenda or view of reality. It can get very shattering, it should, because we should not have a comfort zone in our understanding of an infinite God. We should be ever learning, never hindered.
Instead of throwing out ideas that don't fit our world view, why not search out the matter? But many who detest it, or even disagree is most likely because they don't want to see something that doesn't fit in their agenda or view of reality. It can get very shattering, it should, because we should not have a comfort zone in our understanding of an infinite God. We should be ever learning, never hindered.
S
About the babies that die, that's a mighty statement to make to say many. There is no unified doctrine about this, simply because, scripture is very dim on the subject. Some believe babies can't go to hell because they had not committed any sin for it to be punish. Some, which I have not met, say babies that are not elected are headed for hell. While even more some, believe that all babies that die are among the elect.
S
Jda016, like LT said, hyper-calvinism is not the norm. Pretty much everything you mentioned is not what was and is taught.
If anyone is afraid of losing their salvation, it is most likely the Arminian who believes that their faith is dependently relied upon themselves, even though the bible says that Jesus is the Author and Perfector of our faith, not us. If we were able to fall away, after being truly saved, who then is the perfector and finisher of our faith? If by my own hands, were to hold me in Christ, I would not have held on for so long as a Christian. Our faith is not like holding onto monkey bars, we are assured in Him who abides. I do not trust myself in will, simply because I know my heart, and I know what may come forth from it. I do not trust myself period, simply because I know what is in my heart apart from Christ does not seek Him, neither would attempt to find Him.
Another thing, we don't make up five points and then preach it. Those points are evidently in scripture, undeniable. There are some people who hold to five point, some four, even three point calvinist. So, when you say someone who puts the five points above scripture doesn't really makes sense...since they are from scripture.
If anyone is afraid of losing their salvation, it is most likely the Arminian who believes that their faith is dependently relied upon themselves, even though the bible says that Jesus is the Author and Perfector of our faith, not us. If we were able to fall away, after being truly saved, who then is the perfector and finisher of our faith? If by my own hands, were to hold me in Christ, I would not have held on for so long as a Christian. Our faith is not like holding onto monkey bars, we are assured in Him who abides. I do not trust myself in will, simply because I know my heart, and I know what may come forth from it. I do not trust myself period, simply because I know what is in my heart apart from Christ does not seek Him, neither would attempt to find Him.
Another thing, we don't make up five points and then preach it. Those points are evidently in scripture, undeniable. There are some people who hold to five point, some four, even three point calvinist. So, when you say someone who puts the five points above scripture doesn't really makes sense...since they are from scripture.
L
about the babies going to hell nonsense....
Reformed theology holds the Scriptural view that guilt is divided 2 ways:
1. The guilt of Adam, which we are born with, the repricussion of which is death. (why Jesus had to be born not of a man, and why he was raised from death... because He did not have the guilt of Adam)
2. The guilt of our individual sins, which earn us a second death, which is hell.
If a child has not sinned, they will still die, being born of Adam and inheriting his curse,
but are not damned, because the 2nd death is for our individual guilt.
To get into heaven, we must be born again, of spirit, and in Christ, to be raised incorruptible on the Last Day.
The Bible does not say what becomes of these innocent children, but it is not Biblical to say they are condemned.
Reformed theology holds the Scriptural view that guilt is divided 2 ways:
1. The guilt of Adam, which we are born with, the repricussion of which is death. (why Jesus had to be born not of a man, and why he was raised from death... because He did not have the guilt of Adam)
2. The guilt of our individual sins, which earn us a second death, which is hell.
If a child has not sinned, they will still die, being born of Adam and inheriting his curse,
but are not damned, because the 2nd death is for our individual guilt.
To get into heaven, we must be born again, of spirit, and in Christ, to be raised incorruptible on the Last Day.
The Bible does not say what becomes of these innocent children, but it is not Biblical to say they are condemned.
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At the risk of being stoned for heresy... what is the problem with babies going to hell?
If all are born in sin, then unless they are washed by blood of Jesus, they go to hell no matter what age they are. That is the gospel, is it not?
The argument is same for babies, young children, mentally handicapped, and mentally insane.
These people have no capacity for understanding spiritual things yet are born in sin like everyone else.
One may even argue they wouldn't even know the difference whether they went to heaven or hell, If you have no concept of it in this world why would you expect someone to recognize these things in afterlife?
Sorry for offending anyone but my perspective on the matter is a bit less biased now that I dont think there even is an afterlife.
But these are serious issues within christian doctrine that are typically not addressed.
If all are born in sin, then unless they are washed by blood of Jesus, they go to hell no matter what age they are. That is the gospel, is it not?
The argument is same for babies, young children, mentally handicapped, and mentally insane.
These people have no capacity for understanding spiritual things yet are born in sin like everyone else.
One may even argue they wouldn't even know the difference whether they went to heaven or hell, If you have no concept of it in this world why would you expect someone to recognize these things in afterlife?
Sorry for offending anyone but my perspective on the matter is a bit less biased now that I dont think there even is an afterlife.
But these are serious issues within christian doctrine that are typically not addressed.
I like your questions. Sadly, I don't know the answers as I haven't studied on it. But I do want to hear someone else's take on this. I would also like to pose a serious question in relation to this:
If God's Word were to confirm what dose is saying about babies, would Christians stand by God regardless of whether they liked it or not?
If God's Word were to confirm what dose is saying about babies, would Christians stand by God regardless of whether they liked it or not?