Calvinism taking over Southern Baptists

[eternally-gratefull]

At the risk of being stoned for heresy... what is the problem with babies going to hell?
If all are born in sin, then unless they are washed by blood of Jesus, they go to hell no matter what age they are. That is the gospel, is it not?

The argument is same for babies, young children, mentally handicapped, and mentally insane.
These people have no capacity for understanding spiritual things yet are born in sin like everyone else.
One may even argue they wouldn't even know the difference whether they went to heaven or hell, If you have no concept of it in this world why would you expect someone to recognize these things in afterlife?

Sorry for offending anyone but my perspective on the matter is a bit less biased now that I dont think there even is an afterlife.
But these are serious issues within christian doctrine that are typically not addressed.

could it be that neither is correct. That God, in his omniscience, Knows if a child did would have lived a normal life. would they have come to him. If so, they are saved, if not, they are not. We seem to always wish to remove the things which are hard to understand, and take them to our own understanding, some spiritual things God has not yet revieled to us yet.

 

[doseofreality]

I am accepting of your viewpoint to a degree. My only plaint might be made with viewing God as unreasonable.

That is understandable. That could be rectified by God having all the people unable to choose automatically be part of the elect.

 

[LT]

so everyone here rejects the duality of guilt?

we are born guilty of Adam's sin = death
we sin and are guilty of those sins = 2nd death/hell

this is why I reject infant damnation, on a Scriptural level. We are not damned for Adam's sin, but we are cursed with death and depravity. A person is damned for their own sin.

(correct me where I have erred if I have, or if the 'D' word makes you uncomfortable)

 

[shrimp]

so everyone here rejects the duality of guilt?

we are born guilty of Adam's sin = death
we sin and are guilty of those sins = 2nd death/hell

this is why I reject infant damnation, on a Scriptural level. We are not damned for Adam's sin, but we are cursed with death and depravity. A person is damned for their own sin.

(correct me where I have erred if I have, or if the 'D' word makes you uncomfortable)

Minus the condescending question, It sounds pretty well explained. Not saying that I will believe anything that is well explained, but it is good to hear someone speak up.

 

[doseofreality]

could it be that neither is correct. That God, in his omniscience, Knows if a child did would have lived a normal life. would they have come to him. If so, they are saved, if not, they are not. We seem to always wish to remove the things which are hard to understand, and take them to our own understanding, some spiritual things God has not yet revieled to us yet.

Sorry I find this ridiculous.... God could only know the future if it was already pre-determined, besides you are talking about a future that doesn't even happen which goes into parallel timelines.
So every time I make a choice, God knows what my life would be like if I had made the opposite choice. That is knowing all possible future events for every possible choice for every person who ever lived. Sounds like pre-determinism to me.

 

[LT]

Minus the condescending question, It sounds pretty well explained. Not saying that I will believe anything that is well explained, but it is good to hear someone speak up.

Sry for sounding condescending. That really wasn't the intent. Question marks always seem to translate as sarcasm when I type. It is a flaw of mine.

 

[shrimp]

Sry for sounding condescending. That really wasn't the intent. Question marks always seem to translate as sarcasm when I type. It is a flaw of mine.

No worries. Sometimes our intent isn't clear when we type. I did enjoy your explanation, though. So, Thank you.

 

[The_highwayman]

Sorry I find this ridiculous.... God could only know the future if it was already pre-determined, besides you are talking about a future that doesn't even happen which goes into parallel timelines.
So every time I make a choice, God knows what my life would be like if I had made the opposite choice. That is knowing all possible future events for every possible choice for every person who ever lived. Sounds like pre-determinism to me.

So I guess angels don't have free will or feelings either huh?

 

[LT]

So I guess angels don't have free will or feelings either huh?

how about animals and plants?

God creates different beings with different purposes.
We shouldn't personify all beings just to make them more relatable.

 

[doseofreality]

So I guess angels don't have free will or feelings either huh?

Lol I have no idea, you tell me.

 

[crossnote]

So I guess angels don't have free will or feelings either huh?

They should, my car has a mind of it's own,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry I find this ridiculous.... God could only know the future if it was already pre-determined,

And thus why I hate the modern day aspect of calvanism.

This is rediculous. God is outside of time and reality. God can not only know what will happen, he knows what could happen. Stop thinking as a finite man, And try to imagine an infinite God.

besides you are talking about a future that doesn't even happen which goes into parallel timelines.

There you go thinking as a man again.

I repeat. God is outside of time, Do not relegate him to time, he is not in time.

So every time I make a choice, God knows what my life would be like if I had made the opposite choice. That is knowing all possible future events for every possible choice for every person who ever lived. Sounds like pre-determinism to me.

I do not know bout predeterminism. But I do know God does know ALL possible effects. How do you think he can get free will men to do his will?? He knows who to put where, because he knows how they will act, without removing their free will

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so everyone here rejects the duality of guilt?

we are born guilty of Adam's sin = death
we sin and are guilty of those sins = 2nd death/hell

this is why I reject infant damnation, on a Scriptural level. We are not damned for Adam's sin, but we are cursed with death and depravity. A person is damned for their own sin.

(correct me where I have erred if I have, or if the 'D' word makes you uncomfortable)

I believe in adam all die. Which means any child who is born, is in adam, and will suffer the fate given adam (death) As their head.

In Christ shall all be made alive, who are adopted into his headship.

As for babies, they are born spiritually dead/. How God determines which one is born again and wich one is not, or if they are all born again or not. I do not think we are told. and anything we say would be a guess..

 

[doseofreality]

And thus why I hate the modern day aspect of calvanism.

This is rediculous. God is outside of time and reality. God can not only know what will happen, he knows what could happen. Stop thinking as a finite man, And try to imagine an infinite God.




There you go thinking as a man again.

I repeat. God is outside of time, Do not relegate him to time, he is not in time.


I do not know bout predeterminism. But I do know God does know ALL possible effects. How do you think he can get free will men to do his will?? He knows who to put where, because he knows how they will act, without removing their free will

As soon as i posted I knew this would be your reply but never the less I needed to state my argument.

I can't help thinking like a logical man, that is what I am.

You assert that God is outside time, that is how you may define God, but as far as whether "something" is really outside time, who knows?

As far as your use of free-will, Is it really free if its being manipulated to do someone else's will?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As soon as i posted I knew this would be your reply but never the less I needed to state my argument.

I can't help thinking like a logical man, that is what I am.

well I do not know what to tell you then.

You assert that God is outside time, that is how you may define God, but as far as whether "something" is really outside time, who knows?

As far as your use of free-will, Is it really free if its being manipulated to do someone else's will?

Look up what God had to do to Jonah to get him to do what he wanted. God will not force you to do anything against your will.

 

[LT]

free-will a humanist doctrine/philosophy.

the Bible teaches sovereignty, and doesn't mention free-will.

If there is free-will, then it is still subject to God's sovereignty.

 

[SeaBass]

Mt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! "

Jesus "would" but the Jews "would not". The Jews used their free will to deny what Christ 'would'.

So if Calvnistic election were true, then:

If these Jews were predetermined by God to be lost, then why would Jesus want them saved?

If these Jews were predetermined by God to be saved, then why would they be rejecting Jesus?

 

[crossnote]

Again fallen man freely chooses but he chooses according to his ungodly desires unless God by His grace over rules.

 

[Skinski7]

so everyone here rejects the duality of guilt?

we are born guilty of Adam's sin = death
we sin and are guilty of those sins = 2nd death/hell

this is why I reject infant damnation, on a Scriptural level. We are not damned for Adam's sin, but we are cursed with death and depravity. A person is damned for their own sin.

(correct me where I have erred if I have, or if the 'D' word makes you uncomfortable)

Your problem is that your premise, by necessity, has to deny that human beings are responsible for their actions.

If you were "born depraved" than your sin is a necessary outcome of your birth nature and therefore you are not really responsible for it.

You might claim that a person is damned for their own sin but that sin is a necessary byproduct of being "born depraved."

Thus, in your theology, repentance can never mean a forsaking of evil because your birth state necessitates evil in the same way that the genetic makeup of a caucasian, in regards to the pigment of malanin, necessitates skin colour.

You don't believe human beings really have a choice in regards to obeying God or not because, in your mind, the birth state necessitates disobedience. Thus the Gospel you believe, by necessity, must serve as some kind of cloak for this disobedient state.

 

[SeaBass]

Gen 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Men can choose to do well just as they can choose to not do well.