-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
The tax collector fell on his knees, unable to look up. and said, God have mercy on me, a sinner.
Jesus said this man went home justified.
1. This man did not do a good deed. He came to the end of himself (he hit rock bottom and had no other place to go)
2. This man can not take credit for his salvation, He did nnot do anything, but trust in God to be his savior. (God did all the work)
3. This man was chosen and elect. Because before the creation of man, Before the fall. In Heaven, God looked forward through the ages, and saw this event occur And chose at that time, to save this man, Because he was led by God to the point of repentance, and the man responded IN FAITH.
so yeah Calvin and Arminian BOTH got it wrong.
Although Calvin will most likely be in heaven, Because he still believed in salvation by faith alone.. he just had a skewed theory of how this faith came to be..
Jesus said this man went home justified.
1. This man did not do a good deed. He came to the end of himself (he hit rock bottom and had no other place to go)
2. This man can not take credit for his salvation, He did nnot do anything, but trust in God to be his savior. (God did all the work)
3. This man was chosen and elect. Because before the creation of man, Before the fall. In Heaven, God looked forward through the ages, and saw this event occur And chose at that time, to save this man, Because he was led by God to the point of repentance, and the man responded IN FAITH.
so yeah Calvin and Arminian BOTH got it wrong.
Although Calvin will most likely be in heaven, Because he still believed in salvation by faith alone.. he just had a skewed theory of how this faith came to be..
S
So, by implication, your choice is sovereign and not God.
Again, a man-centered theology. Reformed theology is theocentric, or God-centered.
In your theology, God is nothing more than a concerned bystander, standing by helplessly wringing his hands while the vast majority proceed to eternal punishment. How pathetic.
Again, a man-centered theology. Reformed theology is theocentric, or God-centered.
In your theology, God is nothing more than a concerned bystander, standing by helplessly wringing his hands while the vast majority proceed to eternal punishment. How pathetic.
S
He didn't have it wrong..regeneration is required prior to faith. If you claim that parable proves your point, I don't think you see the point in the parable. The point is that the Pharisee trusted in his own righteousness, and the publican on God's mercy. To attempt to teach a doctrine of soteriology from a parable, which is an abstraction, is an error.
Do you think parables were meant to teach precise doctrine?
Christ stated in John 3 that in order to see the Kingdom of God, you needed to be born from above or born again or regenerated. Those who are not regenerated cannot see the kingdom of God whatsoever. Logically, regeneration must precede faith.
Note in John 1:13 says that this spiritual birth doesn't come by the will of man(including the will of the man himself) but comes through God's will. Those who worship free will are in denial of this fact.
Romans 3 says no one seeks God as well, and teaches on their utter incapability of doing so.
John 3:19-20 says that mankind is evil and chooses not to come to God. This is only changed when a unilateral work by God occurs in the man's life.
That much I know for sure. My guess is that God shows the person, through an act of revelation, how he himself views the man. This exposes the hidden futility and vanity of the man's mind, and convinces him of his sin. Then, God regenerates the person. I am not sure exactly the order in this regard, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me.
Do you think parables were meant to teach precise doctrine?
Christ stated in John 3 that in order to see the Kingdom of God, you needed to be born from above or born again or regenerated. Those who are not regenerated cannot see the kingdom of God whatsoever. Logically, regeneration must precede faith.
Note in John 1:13 says that this spiritual birth doesn't come by the will of man(including the will of the man himself) but comes through God's will. Those who worship free will are in denial of this fact.
Romans 3 says no one seeks God as well, and teaches on their utter incapability of doing so.
John 3:19-20 says that mankind is evil and chooses not to come to God. This is only changed when a unilateral work by God occurs in the man's life.
That much I know for sure. My guess is that God shows the person, through an act of revelation, how he himself views the man. This exposes the hidden futility and vanity of the man's mind, and convinces him of his sin. Then, God regenerates the person. I am not sure exactly the order in this regard, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened to me.
LOl..I must say..I love your gif's......prophesy to these bones Ezekiel!
Arminian Evangelism techniques 
Ephesians 2:1-2 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Ephesians 2:1-2 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
S
Like I said before, declaring that the word Sovereign is not in the Bible, and thus claiming that concept of God's sovereignty isn't true is ridiculous. God is sovereign. He is King and he owns all things, including man. All authority was given to Jesus Christ himself, as the Great Commission says Matthew 28:18-20).
Because it's not in your KJV in the exact word you want to see doesn't prove anything. KJVers are juvenile for making such claims. "I will deny God's Sovereignty because I don't see the word in the KJV".
Sovereign is in the ESV, by the way, and it is translated from the Greek words despotes (Acts 4:24) and dynastēs.(I Tim 6:15) If you are aware of the English words despot and dynasty, you can see the sovereignty aspect clearly.
Acts 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
I Tim 6:15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
So, if you want to use faulty reasoning based on the presupposition that the KJV is the standard, and that you must see the exact word in Scripture or the concept isn't true, expect to be called on it.
By the way anti-Trinitarians sometimes try to do the same thing with their assertions..the word Trinity isn't in the Bible so it's not true..booogus. The concept is clearly taught...and the concept that God is King and rules over all of the earth is a concept which one would be wise not to deny.
Because it's not in your KJV in the exact word you want to see doesn't prove anything. KJVers are juvenile for making such claims. "I will deny God's Sovereignty because I don't see the word in the KJV".
Sovereign is in the ESV, by the way, and it is translated from the Greek words despotes (Acts 4:24) and dynastēs.(I Tim 6:15) If you are aware of the English words despot and dynasty, you can see the sovereignty aspect clearly.
Acts 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
I Tim 6:15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
So, if you want to use faulty reasoning based on the presupposition that the KJV is the standard, and that you must see the exact word in Scripture or the concept isn't true, expect to be called on it.
By the way anti-Trinitarians sometimes try to do the same thing with their assertions..the word Trinity isn't in the Bible so it's not true..booogus. The concept is clearly taught...and the concept that God is King and rules over all of the earth is a concept which one would be wise not to deny.
E
So he has a man being regenerated in sin. Sorry my friend, But I will never believe this, This mocks the pure justice of God.
It shows two sides. Both were given Goods oracles. They were shown Gods love, they were shown the way to God by God himself (through the prophets)
One chose to follow the schoolmaster and fall on his knees, the other chose to distort the schoolmaster. reject it for hwat it said, and thus chose to reject God.
So God just wasted his time?
Nope he said clearly in John 3 that he sent his son, that whoever believes in him will recieve (as a result) eternal life (regeneration)
He also said clearly. those who believe have life, those still in unbelief are still dead (condemned)
You can not have life BEFORE you believe (have faith) Jesus made this clear to nicodemus
No. that is not it at all. Even if I chose to follow God, it is still not my will that saves me, it is GODS WILL.. You are putting to much into it.. My will can never overrule Gods will. it must be aligned with his will.. God is not going to save me against my will. nor will he reject me against my will
What is Gods will? He said it clearly. That ALL WHO BELIEVE WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE (regeneration)
Thats Gods will. You, me, Grandpa, Calvin, Non of us can change that..
Your right, Thank God he sought me,, But I still had to chose, Just like Peter and Judas did.
hmm,, So lets see. Judas loved the world But he came to the light? Please.. People are in churches all the time and have not seen the light. they are impostors.. why do you think many are called but few are chosen?
Scripture says that the spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, It also says all men know the righteous judgment of God. thus they have no excuse/ But they hide it in their heart, because they love sin more than God..
Not everyome comes to God the same way. Some have to hit rock bottom (I have seen many have to come to this before they repent) Some just have this calling, and investigate this God, and come to repentance without having to fall a great fall..
You were convicted yes,, But you were not regenerated (given eternal life) until you repented and had faith.. You had to chose to say yes God, I agree with all you are telling me.. Or to ignore god and reject his calling.
It shows two sides. Both were given Goods oracles. They were shown Gods love, they were shown the way to God by God himself (through the prophets)
One chose to follow the schoolmaster and fall on his knees, the other chose to distort the schoolmaster. reject it for hwat it said, and thus chose to reject God.
So God just wasted his time?
Nope he said clearly in John 3 that he sent his son, that whoever believes in him will recieve (as a result) eternal life (regeneration)
He also said clearly. those who believe have life, those still in unbelief are still dead (condemned)
You can not have life BEFORE you believe (have faith) Jesus made this clear to nicodemus
No. that is not it at all. Even if I chose to follow God, it is still not my will that saves me, it is GODS WILL.. You are putting to much into it.. My will can never overrule Gods will. it must be aligned with his will.. God is not going to save me against my will. nor will he reject me against my will
What is Gods will? He said it clearly. That ALL WHO BELIEVE WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE (regeneration)
Thats Gods will. You, me, Grandpa, Calvin, Non of us can change that..
Your right, Thank God he sought me,, But I still had to chose, Just like Peter and Judas did.
hmm,, So lets see. Judas loved the world But he came to the light? Please.. People are in churches all the time and have not seen the light. they are impostors.. why do you think many are called but few are chosen?
Scripture says that the spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, It also says all men know the righteous judgment of God. thus they have no excuse/ But they hide it in their heart, because they love sin more than God..
Not everyome comes to God the same way. Some have to hit rock bottom (I have seen many have to come to this before they repent) Some just have this calling, and investigate this God, and come to repentance without having to fall a great fall..
You were convicted yes,, But you were not regenerated (given eternal life) until you repented and had faith.. You had to chose to say yes God, I agree with all you are telling me.. Or to ignore god and reject his calling.
K
Regeneration does not come before faith !!!
Faith comes from hearing the word of God and trusting in what it says, regeneration comes from being born again.
Faith comes first and then the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes afterwards, we are not baptized before we come to the faith !!!
Romans 3 is talking about before conversion state, and before what the Lord did for us on the cross.
Acts 5:32 says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey, by claiming the regeneration is before faith you just placed the Holy Spirit given before any obeying even occurs. Which clearly contradicts this scripture !!!
You also have people justified before coming to Christ, not possible !!!
S
A common Arminian proof text is II Peter 3:9
II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
An important point to note is that this verse is part of a letter, and the letter is written to the church, who were part of the elect. Context must always be considered, and Arminians ignore this context.
Peter is talking about those in the church reaching the full culmination of their salvation, which God ensures through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints).
He is not talking about the salvation of all mankind, else God is doing a pretty horrible job, and his will is being thwarted. I don't worship a God who is unable to save.
II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
An important point to note is that this verse is part of a letter, and the letter is written to the church, who were part of the elect. Context must always be considered, and Arminians ignore this context.
Peter is talking about those in the church reaching the full culmination of their salvation, which God ensures through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit (perseverance of the saints).
He is not talking about the salvation of all mankind, else God is doing a pretty horrible job, and his will is being thwarted. I don't worship a God who is unable to save.
S
I won't address every point in this post, although I disagree with your assertions.
I will simply state that God's justice isn't something we judge. We cannot wrap ourselves in the robes of the judge and pronounce a verdict on God's decisions. We are not the judges and cannot use our human standards to define what is right and what is wrong.
For example, if you believe in the eternal torment view, you might find that punishment to be unconscionable but I don't see you judging that as unfair. God destroyed the families of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in the Old Testament for the sins of their fathers. You might not find that fair. God drowned the entire population of the world at the time of Noah..including children....you might not find that fair. Your human concept of fairness is irrelevant, and to claim that God must conform to it is an error.
God also blinded the nation of Israel during the time of Christ concerning his Messiahship, and then later judged them by destroying Jerusalem and most of its inhabitants in AD70 by the hands of Titus..you might not find that fair. But it's irrelevant.
God uses the Assyrians to punish Israel, as Isaiah 10 states, and then he punished Assyria for doing it. You might not find that fair...but it's irrelevant.
God used Judas to betray Christ....and he was born a son of perdition..there was no chance he could have chosen to do something else other than what he did. You might not find that fair..but it's irrelevant.
I thought like that once. I don't judge God whatsoever now and I don't read my presuppositions about what is fair and what is not fair into the Word. I simply accept it for what it says. And what it says reflects Reformed theology, whether I like it or not. It's irrelevant.
I'm not going to cover my eyes whenever the Bible mentions election, elect, chosen, predestined, determined, etcetera..and read the Bible through the cracks in my fingers..that's what I'd have to do in order to be an Arminian or free-willer.
Their position is mostly based on a humanistic presupposition that man's will reigns supreme, and not God's will. This is a fundamental flaw. I am all about sola Scriptura.
I will simply state that God's justice isn't something we judge. We cannot wrap ourselves in the robes of the judge and pronounce a verdict on God's decisions. We are not the judges and cannot use our human standards to define what is right and what is wrong.
For example, if you believe in the eternal torment view, you might find that punishment to be unconscionable but I don't see you judging that as unfair. God destroyed the families of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in the Old Testament for the sins of their fathers. You might not find that fair. God drowned the entire population of the world at the time of Noah..including children....you might not find that fair. Your human concept of fairness is irrelevant, and to claim that God must conform to it is an error.
God also blinded the nation of Israel during the time of Christ concerning his Messiahship, and then later judged them by destroying Jerusalem and most of its inhabitants in AD70 by the hands of Titus..you might not find that fair. But it's irrelevant.
God uses the Assyrians to punish Israel, as Isaiah 10 states, and then he punished Assyria for doing it. You might not find that fair...but it's irrelevant.
God used Judas to betray Christ....and he was born a son of perdition..there was no chance he could have chosen to do something else other than what he did. You might not find that fair..but it's irrelevant.
I thought like that once. I don't judge God whatsoever now and I don't read my presuppositions about what is fair and what is not fair into the Word. I simply accept it for what it says. And what it says reflects Reformed theology, whether I like it or not. It's irrelevant.
I'm not going to cover my eyes whenever the Bible mentions election, elect, chosen, predestined, determined, etcetera..and read the Bible through the cracks in my fingers..that's what I'd have to do in order to be an Arminian or free-willer.
Their position is mostly based on a humanistic presupposition that man's will reigns supreme, and not God's will. This is a fundamental flaw. I am all about sola Scriptura.
S
I should also mention that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, yet punished him for restraining Israel from worshipping Him.
Yes, Pharaoh did harden his own heart too, but Scripture clearly teaches God hardened his heart too.
This doesn't meet our standards of fairness, but that doesn't matter..we don't judge God and his fairness. We aren't the ones who are in the Judge's robe.
Yes, Pharaoh did harden his own heart too, but Scripture clearly teaches God hardened his heart too.
This doesn't meet our standards of fairness, but that doesn't matter..we don't judge God and his fairness. We aren't the ones who are in the Judge's robe.
K
A person is not a believer before they come to repentance, that is what is being said there in 2 Peter 3:9.
Notice it is making that point that before repentance is made the person will still perish, this in no way can be used to say regeneration comes before faith. If so then once again you have a unbeliever saved !!!
Not possible !!!
We can speak till we are blue in the face but unless the Spirit germinates the seed of the gospel it will remain dormant in the fallow ground of our heart. For the gospel to take root the Spirit must come to plow up the fallow ground. We are naturally blind and deaf and only the Spirit can open our eyes and ears. Here are a couple more...
"...but God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." Ephesians 2: 1-5
It was while we were still dead (unregenerate) that the Spirit quickened us by grace. The Spirit's quickens us WHEN we are unregenerate. Likewise,