Calvinist error of pitting God's Sovereignty against God's Love.

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

The Calvinist Error of Absolute Predestination: Pitting God's Sovereignty Against God's Love

"... Beegle ... has a poor idea of omnipotence and also does not believe the Bible when it teaches that God controls our every thought. He caused Absalom to think error; he causes Moses and Paul to think truth. .... If a person accepts the Scriptural teaching on the sovereignty of God and his absolute predestination of all his creatures and all their actions, Beegle's words seem only lamentable." Beegle on the Bible: A Review Article, Part 2, by Gordon H. Clark THE TRINITY REVIEW Number 303 Copyright 2011 The Trinity Foundation, PO Box 68, Unicoi, TN 37692
Nov-Dec 2011

Calvinism contradicts 2 Peter 3:9, which says God wills all people to be saved and to come to repentance. Since God wills all people to be saved, He could not will people to commit errors, nor would He control their thoughts so that He makes them sin. He really is willing that all will be saved, and that would not be true if He caused people to errors.
God's Sovereignty is in perfect harmony with God's Love. Calvinism disagrees, and says God's Sovereignty is more important than any other attribute of God, including God's Love, or God's willingness to love all people and to save all. Anyone who is damned is lost (damned) because of his (their) unbelief, not because of something God does. As Scripture says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:!6. God does not make anyone disbelieve in Himself. God have mercy on us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Ronin]

The Westborogh Baptist Chruch Practices an extreme form of Calvinism. They spout hate and damnation at every turn, I wonder where is the love?

 

[tribesman]

The Westborogh Baptist Chruch Practices an extreme form of Calvinism. They spout hate and damnation at every turn, I wonder where is the love?

Just for the record. WBC has never claimed that they hate anyone.

 

[HhhLGA89]

I've heard John Piper diagnose God with a multiply personality disorder in order to defend he precious Calvinism when he was confronted with this verse ( and verses like it I assume). Something about God having two wills, I forget what he calls them but I guess in one God hates that we disobey the gospel and wants us to change, and with the other he doesn't do anything to change that we disobey the gospel and it is actually his will that we Not change. Complete nonsense, I know. Calvinism knows no bounds, it is a system of taking things to the extreme. God is more like a Kim Jong-il than an Abraham Lincoln who wanted to let all the slaves free.

 

[Crossfire]

Here's a few questions to ponder:

[1] If God is the micro-manager and we are all the mindless puppets that Calvinism makes out to be then why did sin ever come into the world in the first place?

[2] If John Calvin believed in the sovereignty of God as it is now taught by Calvinists, then why did John Calvin have Michael Servetus burned at the stake for simply fulfilling the will of God for his life?

[3] Seeing as the bible teaches that a person who is being lead by the Holy Spirit will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh (Romans 8), then why do Calvinists insist that a person is a slave to his or her own depravity even after salvation thus the believer is saved in sin rather than saved from sin as the scriptures clearly indicate?

[4] If Calvinists are truly being lead by the Holy Spirit, why then did they persecute, imprison and murder other Christians (Arminians, Quakers, Anabaptists, Methodists, etc.) who would not agree them?

[5] If Calvinists are truly being lead by the Holy Spirit, then why did they attempt to assassinate John Wesley who's evangelistic efforts resulted in the salvation of tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands?

If you were to put Calvinism on trial for murder using the fruits of Calvinism throughout Church history as evidence. A person could easily get a guilty verdict. Wait... one their own, Charles Finney, already did so.

 

[jimmydiggs]

It'd be nice if non-Calvinists actually understood Calvinism for once. I have yet to see one who opposes Calvinism that understands it.

 

[terry4him4]

Why, would any man or woman, follow another mans teaching. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, lets all read all the scriptures, from Gen. through Rev. Pray over your readings and let the Lord teach.
We spend all this time reading others opinions on the word and don't bother to read The Word, I care little about denominations. I'm not regilous, however, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Isn't this what Paul wrote one is of Apollos, one of Paul, one of Christ what then is Christ devided, lets all follow Christ. Face it their will not be denominations in heaven. So read the word.

 

[HhhLGA89]

It'd be nice if non-Calvinists actually understood Calvinism for once. I have yet to see one who opposes Calvinism that understands it.

I could say the exact same thing with Arminianism. But please feel free to deliver us from our "intellectual infirmity".

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Just for the record. WBC has never claimed that they hate anyone.

By their actions and demeanor they claim God hates certain people, of whom they believe homosexuals are the worst, apparently that's what they believe. By their actions and demeanor, they demonstrate hate toward certain others, if not toward everyone, whom they believe God hates, and they demonstrate they think faith alone is greater than love (in ignorance or denial of Gal. 5:6 and 1 Cor. 13:13).
They claim to speak for God, a false god of hate/hatred, not of justice and mercy, neither of mercy, nor justice. God is love, not hate.

 

[tribesman]

By their actions and demeanor they claim God hates certain people, of whom they believe homosexuals are the worst, apparently that's what they believe. By their actions and demeanor, they demonstrate hate toward certain others, if not toward everyone, whom they believe God hates, and they demonstrate they think faith alone is greater than love (in ignorance or denial of Gal. 5:6 and 1 Cor. 13:13). They claim to speak for God, a false god of hate/hatred, not of justice and mercy, neither of mercy, nor justice. God is love, not hate.

They are talking about what they see as God's hatred, not their own hatred. They claim that they see their rebuke by way of picketing as a way of loving their neighbor. Their "theological position" is that the wrath of God is not only upon sin, but also upon impenitent sinners. While there are things and practices I don't agree with WBC on, I cannot see how this particular notion, that the wrath of God is real, would be unscriptural.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

They are talking about what they see as God's hatred, not their own hatred. They claim that they see their rebuke by way of picketing as a way of loving their neighbor. Their "theological position" is that the wrath of God is not only upon sin, but also upon impenitent sinners. While there are things and practices I don't agree with WBC on, I cannot see how this particular notion, that the wrath of God is real, would be unscriptural.

God does hate all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5), so they are essential correct on this point. Of course, the problem is that Fred Phelps is, himself, a worker of iniquity.

Nonetheless, mixing truth in with the lies is standard practice for false teachers. I've already dealt with the Westboro Baptist Church and their false teacher Fred Phelps recently in another post, but if anybody is interested to know some of their false doctrines I could go into it again.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

It'd be nice if non-Calvinists actually understood Calvinism for once. I have yet to see one who opposes Calvinism that understands it.

Please refer to my latest post in the thread "Is there unity in Christ's church?" for a short disproof of the Calvinist error of limited atonement.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

[1] If God is the micro-manager and we are all the mindless puppets that Calvinism makes out to be then why did sin ever come into the world in the first place?

Because all things are of God, as the Bible says:

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

All things are of Him, through Him, and to Him, including sin:

17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9 KJV)

After all, He made the wicked for the day of doom (Proverbs 16:4) and prepared the vessels of wrath for destruction (Romans 9:22).

4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. (Proverbs 16:4)

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22)

Why do the wicked spring up like grass? Why do all the workers of iniquity flourish? So that they may be destroyed forever.

7 When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever. (Psalm 92:7)

 

[Zilla64007]

It'd be nice if non-Calvinists actually understood Calvinism for once. I have yet to see one who opposes Calvinism that understands it.

Roger Olson and Steve Gregg do just fine

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

God does hate all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5), so they are essential correct on this point. Of course, the problem is that Fred Phelps is, himself, a worker of iniquity.

Nonetheless, mixing truth in with the lies is standard practice for false teachers. I've already dealt with the Westboro Baptist Church and their false teacher Fred Phelps recently in another post, but if anybody is interested to know some of their false doctrines I could go into it again.

God does hate all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5). The Bible says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", so all people are workers of iniquity. So, then, God must hate all people. But the Bible says, INSTEAD, that God so LOVED the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoseoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). And that Christ died not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Doesn't sound like God hates everyone since John 3:16 is Christ speaking, and Christ said His words would not pass away. Don't take something in the Psalms OUT OF CONTEXT.
It would not be loving to single out Fred Phelps. We all need God's mercy. May God save Mr. Phelps from his own irrational hatred. Amen.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Because all things are of God, as the Bible says:

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

All things are of Him, through Him, and to Him, including sin:

17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9 KJV)

After all, He made the wicked for the day of doom (Proverbs 16:4) and prepared the vessels of wrath for destruction (Romans 9:22).

4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. (Proverbs 16:4)

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22)

Why do the wicked spring up like grass? Why do all the workers of iniquity flourish? So that they may be destroyed forever.

7 When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever. (Psalm 92:7)

Dear friend: God loves the world, including the wicked (John 3:16). God saves those who believe in Christ (John 3:16). While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, the Righteous One for the unrighteous. It is not Biblical to think of the wicked as "other people". All have sinned. All who believe in Christ can and shall be saved by Christ, because Christ's blood is shed for them (1 John 2:2).
The workers of iniquity are caught in the net of their own sins; it's not something God does, but what they do of themselves, and God lets them have what they want: iniquity. Sinners who repent of their iniquity and turn to Christ for forgiveness can obtain everlasting life (John 3:16). In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 

[trust_in_the_name]

God does hate all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5). The Bible says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", so all people are workers of iniquity. So, then, God must hate all people.

Basically correct, yes.

But the Bible says, INSTEAD, that God so LOVED the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoseoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

No, that's incorrect. It doesn't say that "instead." Rather, it says both, and both are true.

And that Christ died not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Correct.

Doesn't sound like God hates everyone since John 3:16 is Christ speaking, and Christ said His words would not pass away.

Incorrect, non-sequitur. Both are true. His love does not negate His hate, since the two are not in the same sense.

Don't take something in the Psalms OUT OF CONTEXT.

I haven't. It's entirely in context. An unsubstantiated claim won't get you anywhere. Specifically, claiming that something in God's word is out of context any time you don't like what God says, without any evidence to back that claim up, won't get you anywhere.

It would not be loving to single out Fred Phelps.

Yes, it would. It would be loving to those who might otherwise be deceived into the error of recognizing him as something other than what he is (a false teacher). If you are interested in understanding why Fred Phelps is a false teacher, I have, as I said, gone over it in another thread, but I would be willing to repost some information here.

We all need God's mercy.

Yes, and those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) have that mercy. Those who do not, such as, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church, do not have it.

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

May God save Mr. Phelps from his own irrational hatred. Amen.

God will by no means save Fred Phelps. Since he is a false teacher, he was made to be destroyed, and will utterly perish in his own corruption (2 Peter 2:12).

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, (2 Peter 2:12)

 

[Zilla64007]

FYI, Fred PHelps is a Calvinist.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Dear friend: God loves the world, including the wicked (John 3:16). God saves those who believe in Christ (John 3:16). While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, the Righteous One for the unrighteous.

All correct.

It is not Biblical to think of the wicked as "other people".

Depends what you mean. It is true that "no one living is righteous" in the sight of God (Psalm 143:2).

2 Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no one living is righteous. (Psalm 143:2)

Nonetheless, Christ is able to save to the uttermost those, and only those, who come to God through him (Hebrews 7:25).

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

All have sinned. All who believe in Christ can and shall be saved by Christ, because Christ's blood is shed for them (1 John 2:2). The workers of iniquity are caught in the net of their own sins; it's not something God does, but what they do of themselves,

That's all well and good, but it's also something God does (Romans 11:36; Isaiah 63:7; Ezekiel 14:9; Psalm 141:4; 2 Samuel 24:1, 10-17; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Romans 11:32; Galatians 3:22; Jeremiah 10:23; Proverbs 20:24; Isaiah 26:12).

4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice wicked works With men who work iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies. (Psalm 141:4)

1 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

10 And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly." 11 Now when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, 12 "Go and tell David, 'Thus says the Lord: "I offer you three things; choose one of them for yourself, that I may do it to you." ' " 13 So Gad came to David and told him; and he said to him, "Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or shall you flee three months before your enemies, while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' plague in your land? Now consider and see what answer I should take back to Him who sent me." 14 And David said to Gad, "I am in great distress. Please let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man." 15 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 17 Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, "Surely I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let Your hand, I pray, be against me and against my father's house." (2 Samuel 24:10-17)

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:7-8)

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Romans 11:32)

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (Galatians 3:22)

23 O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)

24 A man's steps are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us. (Isaiah 26:12)

and God lets them have what they want: iniquity. Sinners who repent of their iniquity and turn to Christ for forgiveness can obtain everlasting life (John 3:16). In Erie Scott R. Harrington

Yep.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

FYI, Fred PHelps is a Calvinist.

Yes, that is part of his false teaching.