Calvinist error of pitting God's Sovereignty against God's Love.

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Nov 23, 2011
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#21
Basically correct, yes.



No, that's incorrect. It doesn't say that "instead." Rather, it says both, and both are true.



Correct.



Incorrect, non-sequitur. Both are true. His love does not negate His hate, since the two are not in the same sense.



I haven't. It's entirely in context. An unsubstantiated claim won't get you anywhere. Specifically, claiming that something in God's word is out of context any time you don't like what God says, without any evidence to back that claim up, won't get you anywhere.



Yes, it would. It would be loving to those who might otherwise be deceived into the error of recognizing him as something other than what he is (a false teacher). If you are interested in understanding why Fred Phelps is a false teacher, I have, as I said, gone over it in another thread, but I would be willing to repost some information here.



Yes, and those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) have that mercy. Those who do not, such as, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church, do not have it.

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)



God will by no means save Fred Phelps. Since he is a false teacher, he was made to be destroyed, and will utterly perish in his own corruption (2 Peter 2:12).

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, (2 Peter 2:12)
Is Calvinism false? If you say it is true, then you are false teacher, too. I'm not defending Fred Phelps. I'm listening to what Christ says, "Love your enemies. Pray for those who desperately abuse you, for My Name's sake."
God bless you. Can you produce one Scripture that says "God is hate"? God hates wickedness in the wicked. So there is a sense in which God hates. God loves sinners. John 3:16 says so, for the meaning of world is all people, and all people are sinners. So God loves sinners. His hatred is against their sins, not them. For God is not a respecter of persons. He blesses all who turn from their sins (see EZEKIEL 18).
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#22
Basically correct, yes.



No, that's incorrect. It doesn't say that "instead." Rather, it says both, and both are true.



Correct.



Incorrect, non-sequitur. Both are true. His love does not negate His hate, since the two are not in the same sense.



I haven't. It's entirely in context. An unsubstantiated claim won't get you anywhere. Specifically, claiming that something in God's word is out of context any time you don't like what God says, without any evidence to back that claim up, won't get you anywhere.



Yes, it would. It would be loving to those who might otherwise be deceived into the error of recognizing him as something other than what he is (a false teacher). If you are interested in understanding why Fred Phelps is a false teacher, I have, as I said, gone over it in another thread, but I would be willing to repost some information here.



Yes, and those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) have that mercy. Those who do not, such as, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church, do not have it.

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)



God will by no means save Fred Phelps. Since he is a false teacher, he was made to be destroyed, and will utterly perish in his own corruption (2 Peter 2:12).

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, (2 Peter 2:12)
Dear trustinthename: So you are saying that John 3:16 says, "For God so loved and hated the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son ..? John 3:16 says nothing about God hating, does it? Can you read? God can save Fred Phelps if he repents. You are talking just like Fred Phelps talks if you think he is predestined to be destroyed.
God bless you.
Scott R. Harrington
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#23
FYI, Fred PHelps is a Calvinist.
Yes, that is part of his false teaching.
As you can see, that was already answered.

If you say it is true, then you are false teacher, too.
If I were to say that, it would certainly be a false teaching.

I'm not defending Fred Phelps. I'm listening to what Christ says, "Love your enemies. Pray for those who desperately abuse you, for My Name's sake."
God bless you. Can you produce one Scripture that says "God is hate"?
No, since God is not hate. He is, however, love. Nonetheless, He hates all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5).

God hates wickedness in the wicked. So there is a sense in which God hates.
He also hates the people themselves.

God loves sinners. John 3:16 says so, for the meaning of world is all people, and all people are sinners. So God loves sinners. His hatred is against their sins,
All correct.

Incorrect (Psalm 5:5-6; Psalm 11:5; Jeremiah 12:8; Hosea 9:15; Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 78:59; Proverbs 22:14; Romans 9:13).

5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (Psalm 5:5-6)

5 The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. (Psalm 11:5)

8 My heritage is to Me like a lion in the forest; It cries out against Me; Therefore I have hated it. (Jeremiah 12:8)

15 "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious. (Hosea 9:15)

23 And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them. (Leviticus 20:23)

59 When God heard this, He was furious, And greatly abhorred Israel, (Psalm 78:59)

14 The mouth of an immoral woman is a deep pit; He who is abhorred by the Lord will fall there. (Proverbs 22:14)

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:13)

For God is not a respecter of persons.
Depends what you mean (Romans 9:11-15).

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Romans 9:11-15)

He blesses all who turn from their sins (see EZEKIEL 18).
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#24
Dear trustinthename: So you are saying that John 3:16 says, "For God so loved and hated the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son ..?
Straw man. Trying to put words into my mouth won't help to prove your point.

John 3:16 says nothing about God hating, does it?
No, but the verses mentioned in my previous post do. Apparently you missed 2 Timothy 3:16 where it says that ALL scripture is God-breathed.

Yes. Can you? Apparently not, since you are unable to read Psalm 5:5-6; Psalm 11:5; Jeremiah 12:8; Hosea 9:15; Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 78:59; Proverbs 22:14; and Romans 9:13.

God can save Fred Phelps if he repents. You are talking just like Fred Phelps talks if you think he is predestined to be destroyed.
Fred Phelps won't repent, since the Bible says that he won't (2 Peter 2:12).

You are talking just like Fred Phelps when you say that Jesus is the Messiah, since Fred Phelps says that, too. Just because Fred Phelps says something doesn't mean it's false. As I said previously, it's standard practice for false teachers to mix truth in with their lies (2 Peter 2:1).
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#25
As you can see, that was already answered.



If I were to say that, it would certainly be a false teaching.



No, since God is not hate. He is, however, love. Nonetheless, He hates all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5).



He also hates the people themselves.



All correct.



Incorrect (Psalm 5:5-6; Psalm 11:5; Jeremiah 12:8; Hosea 9:15; Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 78:59; Proverbs 22:14; Romans 9:13).

5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (Psalm 5:5-6)

5 The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. (Psalm 11:5)

8 My heritage is to Me like a lion in the forest; It cries out against Me; Therefore I have hated it. (Jeremiah 12:8)

15 "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious. (Hosea 9:15)

23 And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them. (Leviticus 20:23)

59 When God heard this, He was furious, And greatly abhorred Israel, (Psalm 78:59)

14 The mouth of an immoral woman is a deep pit; He who is abhorred by the Lord will fall there. (Proverbs 22:14)

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:13)



Depends what you mean (Romans 9:11-15).

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Romans 9:11-15)

Dear trustinthename:

Does God (Christ) then, hate His own Mother? Does He hate His own Saints? Does He hate the 12 Apostles, St. Paul, and does He hate the Church that He founded (Matthew 16:18). Is the Church "the pillar and ground of God's hate", or the "Pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)?
Scott Harrington Erie PA
PS You still haven't shown where John 3:16 says "For God so hated the world ...".
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#26
Straw man. Trying to put words into my mouth won't help to prove your point.



No, but the verses mentioned in my previous post do. Apparently you missed 2 Timothy 3:16 where it says that ALL scripture is God-breathed.



Yes. Can you? Apparently not, since you are unable to read Psalm 5:5-6; Psalm 11:5; Jeremiah 12:8; Hosea 9:15; Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 78:59; Proverbs 22:14; and Romans 9:13.



Fred Phelps won't repent, since the Bible says that he won't (2 Peter 2:12).

You are talking just like Fred Phelps when you say that Jesus is the Messiah, since Fred Phelps says that, too. Just because Fred Phelps says something doesn't mean it's false. As I said previously, it's standard practice for false teachers to mix truth in with their lies (2 Peter 2:1).

Where does 2 Peter 2:12 mention anyone by name? Aren't you trying to stand in place of God? Can't God decide that? Why are you saying that? I'm not defending Fred Phelps. I'm saying you shouldn't misuse the Bible! Which, ISTM, you are presuming too much. The Bible doesn't say anything about who or who will not repent. Only God Himself can say, and God didn't put that information in the Bible! You're making a mistake if you think it says so!
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#27
Dear trustinthename:

Does God (Christ) then, hate His own Mother? Does He hate His own Saints? Does He hate the 12 Apostles, St. Paul,
Yes, He hates everyone without exception.

and does He hate the Church that He founded (Matthew 16:18).
Yes, just as He hated His people Israel (Psalm 78:59),

59 When God heard this, He was furious, And greatly abhorred Israel, (Psalm 78:59)

and for the same reason: because of the evil of their deeds (Hosea 9:15).

15 "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious. (Hosea 9:15)

Is the Church "the pillar and ground of God's hate", or the "Pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)?
"[T]he house of God, which is the church of the living God," is "the pillar and ground of the truth," and God hates everyone in His church.

PS You still haven't shown where John 3:16 says "For God so hated the world ...".
Why do you persist in speaking falsely about what John 3:16 says?
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#28
Where does 2 Peter 2:12 mention anyone by name?
2 Peter 2 is about false teachers. Therefore, it applies to all false teachers.

Aren't you trying to stand in place of God?
No.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:20).

He already has.

Because it's what the Bible teaches.

I'm not defending Fred Phelps. I'm saying you shouldn't misuse the Bible!
Agreed. You are misusing the Bible.

Which, ISTM, you are presuming too much. The Bible doesn't say anything about who or who will not repent.
Yes it does. It says that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances (2 Peter 2:12).

Correct, and God has said (2 Peter 2:12), and since He has told us (2 Peter 2:12), and we therefore now know, we too can say (Matthew 7:20). In fact this is what God has commanded every Christian to do (Ephesians 5:11).

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. (Ephesians 5:11)

and God didn't put that information in the Bible!
Of course He did (2 Peter 2:12).

You're making a mistake if you think it says so!
No, but you are by thinking it doesn't.
 
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Nov 23, 2011
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#29
2 Peter 2 is about false teachers. Therefore, it applies to all false teachers.



No.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:20).



He already has.



Because it's what the Bible teaches.



Agreed. You are misusing the Bible.



Yes it does. It says that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances (2 Peter 2:12).



Correct, and God has said (2 Peter 2:12), and since He has told us (2 Peter 2:12), and we therefore now know, we too can say (Matthew 7:20). In fact this is what God has commanded every Christian to do (Ephesians 5:11).

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. (Ephesians 5:11)



Of course He did (2 Peter 2:12).



No, but you are by thinking it doesn't.

Dear trust in the name:

Do you believe these verses:

1 Timothy 2:3-4

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 2:2

?

2 Peter 2:12 doesn't say that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances.

St. Peter was a false teacher. He taught circumcision was necessary for Christians. St. Paul withstood him to the face about circumcision. St. Peter repented. Therefore, your supposition that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances is false!

God bless you.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#30
Dear trust in the name:

Do you believe these verses:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Of course I see where you are coming from here. After all, if God desires all men to be saved (and He does), why does He choose not to give them a heart to obey Him? According to Deuteronomy 5:29, God desires that men would have a heart in them that they would fear Him and always keep all His commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever:

29 Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! (Deuteronomy 5:29)

And yet, even so, the Lord chose not to give some of them such a heart:

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. (Deuteronomy 29:4)

So, even though God does desire all men to be saved, he nevertheless chooses only to save a few of them (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 9:27-28, 11:8-10). How could this be? It is so that His purpose according to election might stand (Romans 9:11). God longs for everyone to be saved, but He chooses not to save them even so, because His purpose supercedes His desire.

If this seems difficult to grasp, do not be surprised: for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). Indeed, His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33)! Therefore, we should in fact expect that we will be unable to understand many of the mysteries of God. Our obligation then is simply to trust Him, not our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

See above.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Jesus died for everyone, including false teachers:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)

?

2 Peter 2:12 doesn't say that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances.
Sure it does.

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, (2 Peter 2:12)

"These," that is, false teachers, are "made to be ... destroyed ... and will utterly perish in their own corruption." See, I didn't even have to give you an "interpretation." I simply quoted the verse to you. So, if they were made to be destroyed, and will utterly perish, that means that they will never repent. Simple.

Moreover, the Bible tells us that false teachers were "long ago marked out for this condemnation" (Jude 4). If God marked them for condemnation long ago, there's no way they are going to repent.

4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 4)

St. Peter was a false teacher. He taught circumcision was necessary for Christians. St. Paul withstood him to the face about circumcision. St. Peter repented. Therefore, your supposition that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances is false!
The problem is that you have an incorrect understanding of what a false teacher is. Simply because a teacher teaches something that is false doesn't automatically make them a false teacher. False teaching is sin, and everyone sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20). So, some false teaching is inevitable, even from those who are not actually false teachers.

The distinction between a false teacher and a Christian teacher is found in 1 John 3 and 2 John 9:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)

So, even though we all sin, false teachers practice sin: in other words, they teach falsely on a regular basis, without repentance. Similarly, a godly teacher may teach something false, but when he becomes aware of his error he will repent of it and embrace the scriptural truth.

In other words, a godly teacher will, on the whole, abide in the doctrine of Christ, whereas a false teacher will not:

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

So, bringing this back to Peter, as you pointed out, Peter repented of his false teaching when he came to be aware of it. This is what identifies him as a godly teacher.

Remember, Paul wrote to the Galatians, warning them that they were turning away "to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6) for the same reason: they were falsely teaching the necessity of circumcision for Gentiles. Paul didn't declare them apostate. Rather, he warned them that they were heading down the wrong path, and if they continued in their error, without repentance, they would have turned away from Christ and be accursed.
 
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Nov 23, 2011
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#31
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Of course I see where you are coming from here. After all, if God desires all men to be saved (and He does), why does He choose not to give them a heart to obey Him? According to Deuteronomy 5:29, God desires that men would have a heart in them that they would fear Him and always keep all His commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever:

29 Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! (Deuteronomy 5:29)

And yet, even so, the Lord chose not to give some of them such a heart:

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. (Deuteronomy 29:4)

So, even though God does desire all men to be saved, he nevertheless chooses only to save a few of them (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 9:27-28, 11:8-10). How could this be? It is so that His purpose according to election might stand (Romans 9:11). God longs for everyone to be saved, but He chooses not to save them even so, because His purpose supercedes His desire.

If this seems difficult to grasp, do not be surprised: for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). Indeed, His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33)! Therefore, we should in fact expect that we will be unable to understand many of the mysteries of God. Our obligation then is simply to trust Him, not our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)



9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

See above.



2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Jesus died for everyone, including false teachers:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)



Sure it does.

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, (2 Peter 2:12)

"These," that is, false teachers, are "made to be ... destroyed ... and will utterly perish in their own corruption." See, I didn't even have to give you an "interpretation." I simply quoted the verse to you. So, if they were made to be destroyed, and will utterly perish, that means that they will never repent. Simple.

Moreover, the Bible tells us that false teachers were "long ago marked out for this condemnation" (Jude 4). If God marked them for condemnation long ago, there's no way they are going to repent.

4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 4)



The problem is that you have an incorrect understanding of what a false teacher is. Simply because a teacher teaches something that is false doesn't automatically make them a false teacher. False teaching is sin, and everyone sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20). So, some false teaching is inevitable, even from those who are not actually false teachers.

The distinction between a false teacher and a Christian teacher is found in 1 John 3 and 2 John 9:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)

So, even though we all sin, false teachers practice sin: in other words, they teach falsely on a regular basis, without repentance. Similarly, a godly teacher may teach something false, but when he becomes aware of his error he will repent of it and embrace the scriptural truth.

In other words, a godly teacher will, on the whole, abide in the doctrine of Christ, whereas a false teacher will not:

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

So, bringing this back to Peter, as you pointed out, Peter repented of his false teaching when he came to be aware of it. This is what identifies him as a godly teacher.

Remember, Paul wrote to the Galatians, warning them that they were turning away "to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6) for the same reason: they were falsely teaching the necessity of circumcision for Gentiles. Paul didn't declare them apostate. Rather, he warned them that they were heading down the wrong path, and if they continued in their error, without repentance, they would have turned away from Christ and be accursed.

Dear friend: I would agree with you that Fred Phelps is a false teacher. But that Bible verse doesn't say anything about him. Maybe I'm wrong to call St. Peter a false teacher. But he taught a false teaching. He repented. I believe we have to be careful to say certain people can't or won't repent. That's something only God should say. He has perfect foreknowledge; we don't have perfect foreknowledge, none of us do. Since God does indeed want to save all (2 Peter 3:9), how do we know or not know whether or not a specific false teacher will be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God is perfectly capable of saving anyone, including false teachers.
I was a heretic and a false believer. Then God showed me the Truth, and I repented. I am continuing to live in repentance. I still have to fulfill more of God's purpose in my life. My life is not my own, but belongs to God.
God forgive me if I say bad things, whenever I do that. I would not really call St. Peter a false teacher in the sense that he is really false. He just made one mistake about circumcision, and that is what I meant to say. Isn't anyone who teaches anything false a false teacher at that point of teaching? That doesn't mean all of his teachings are false.
God save us. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#32
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Of course I see where you are coming from here. After all, if God desires all men to be saved (and He does), why does He choose not to give them a heart to obey Him? According to Deuteronomy 5:29, God desires that men would have a heart in them that they would fear Him and always keep all His commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever:

29 Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! (Deuteronomy 5:29)

And yet, even so, the Lord chose not to give some of them such a heart:

4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. (Deuteronomy 29:4)

So, even though God does desire all men to be saved, he nevertheless chooses only to save a few of them (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 9:27-28, 11:8-10). How could this be? It is so that His purpose according to election might stand (Romans 9:11). God longs for everyone to be saved, but He chooses not to save them even so, because His purpose supercedes His desire.

If this seems difficult to grasp, do not be surprised: for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). Indeed, His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33)! Therefore, we should in fact expect that we will be unable to understand many of the mysteries of God. Our obligation then is simply to trust Him, not our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)



9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

See above.



2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Jesus died for everyone, including false teachers:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)



Sure it does.

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, (2 Peter 2:12)

"These," that is, false teachers, are "made to be ... destroyed ... and will utterly perish in their own corruption." See, I didn't even have to give you an "interpretation." I simply quoted the verse to you. So, if they were made to be destroyed, and will utterly perish, that means that they will never repent. Simple.

Moreover, the Bible tells us that false teachers were "long ago marked out for this condemnation" (Jude 4). If God marked them for condemnation long ago, there's no way they are going to repent.

4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 4)



The problem is that you have an incorrect understanding of what a false teacher is. Simply because a teacher teaches something that is false doesn't automatically make them a false teacher. False teaching is sin, and everyone sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20). So, some false teaching is inevitable, even from those who are not actually false teachers.

The distinction between a false teacher and a Christian teacher is found in 1 John 3 and 2 John 9:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)

So, even though we all sin, false teachers practice sin: in other words, they teach falsely on a regular basis, without repentance. Similarly, a godly teacher may teach something false, but when he becomes aware of his error he will repent of it and embrace the scriptural truth.

In other words, a godly teacher will, on the whole, abide in the doctrine of Christ, whereas a false teacher will not:

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)

So, bringing this back to Peter, as you pointed out, Peter repented of his false teaching when he came to be aware of it. This is what identifies him as a godly teacher.

Remember, Paul wrote to the Galatians, warning them that they were turning away "to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6) for the same reason: they were falsely teaching the necessity of circumcision for Gentiles. Paul didn't declare them apostate. Rather, he warned them that they were heading down the wrong path, and if they continued in their error, without repentance, they would have turned away from Christ and be accursed.
Amen. That is right. Maybe you are right about Fred Phelps. I just think it's better to hope people do repent who are false teachers. May God forgive me then since I made an error in logic in assuming St. Peter is a false teacher because he made one error in teaching. That was not my intention. I was just trying to say I think we should not deal with personalities, and assume we know who is not going to repent. I think it's dangerous to get into that kind of judgment. It could become judgmentalism.
Anyway, it is true Fred Phelps is not the best kind of Baptist. And it would be fair to say that not all Calvinists are as extreme as he is.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#33
Dear trust in the name:

Do you believe these verses:

1 Timothy 2:3-4

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 2:2

?

2 Peter 2:12 doesn't say that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances.

St. Peter was a false teacher. He taught circumcision was necessary for Christians. St. Paul withstood him to the face about circumcision. St. Peter repented. Therefore, your supposition that no false teacher will ever repent under any circumstances is false!

God bless you.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I made a mistake of overextension. St. Peter was not a false teacher just for teaching one wrong thing.
I hope people repent. We all need to repent. I know I do. I hope I have repented enough, and repent whenever I make a mistake. I hope not to make more mistakes or sins. God save me. What is clear, Jesus Christ said some very remarkable things about St. Peter. He is called blessed by Christ. But at another point he was called to being said, "Get thee behind me satan .." by our Lord Jesus Christ. At this point St. Peter did not have God's understanding, but was rebuked by Christ. We had all better fear Christ, fear God, because any of us can be rebuked by Christ for not thinking as God thinks, and for any sin we commit. God save us!
PS I still believe many false teachers can still be saved if God saves them, and I can't say that God isn't going to do that. Perhaps most of them won't repent. There are many false teachings that still haven't changed. From Mormonism and the other groups that teach very bad heresies.
Perhaps there are some false teachers that do not repent under any circumstances, not that they can't, for with God all things are possible.
 
F

Forest

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#34
The Calvinist Error of Absolute Predestination: Pitting God's Sovereignty Against God's Love

"... Beegle ... has a poor idea of omnipotence and also does not believe the Bible when it teaches that God controls our every thought. He caused Absalom to think error; he causes Moses and Paul to think truth. .... If a person accepts the Scriptural teaching on the sovereignty of God and his absolute predestination of all his creatures and all their actions, Beegle's words seem only lamentable." Beegle on the Bible: A Review Article, Part 2, by Gordon H. Clark THE TRINITY REVIEW Number 303 Copyright 2011 The Trinity Foundation, PO Box 68, Unicoi, TN 37692
Nov-Dec 2011

Calvinism contradicts 2 Peter 3:9, which says God wills all people to be saved and to come to repentance. Since God wills all people to be saved, He could not will people to commit errors, nor would He control their thoughts so that He makes them sin. He really is willing that all will be saved, and that would not be true if He caused people to errors.
God's Sovereignty is in perfect harmony with God's Love. Calvinism disagrees, and says God's Sovereignty is more important than any other attribute of God, including God's Love, or God's willingness to love all people and to save all. Anyone who is damned is lost (damned) because of his (their) unbelief, not because of something God does. As Scripture says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:!6. God does not make anyone disbelieve in Himself. God have mercy on us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
If God wills that all men be saved eternally, which he doesn't, He would save them. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he "doeth according to his will" in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth' and none can stay his hand, or say uwnto him, What doest thou? Isa 50:2, Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? Mark 16:16, Pay particular attention as to what salvation he is talking about, it is not eternal salvation, but baptism saves (delivers) us from a guilty conscience, 1 Pet 3:21.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#35
As you can see, that was already answered.



If I were to say that, it would certainly be a false teaching.



No, since God is not hate. He is, however, love. Nonetheless, He hates all workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5).



He also hates the people themselves.



All correct.



Incorrect (Psalm 5:5-6; Psalm 11:5; Jeremiah 12:8; Hosea 9:15; Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 78:59; Proverbs 22:14; Romans 9:13).

5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (Psalm 5:5-6)

5 The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. (Psalm 11:5)

8 My heritage is to Me like a lion in the forest; It cries out against Me; Therefore I have hated it. (Jeremiah 12:8)

15 "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious. (Hosea 9:15)

23 And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them. (Leviticus 20:23)

59 When God heard this, He was furious, And greatly abhorred Israel, (Psalm 78:59)

14 The mouth of an immoral woman is a deep pit; He who is abhorred by the Lord will fall there. (Proverbs 22:14)

13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:13)



Depends what you mean (Romans 9:11-15).

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Romans 9:11-15)
Where does Romans 9:13 say, "Jacob I have hated, but Esau I have hated"?
Is love compatible with hate?
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#36
Forest;621393 said:
If God wills that all men be saved eternally, which he doesn't,

"God our Saviour, Who willeth all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth" (1 St.

Timothy 2:3-4 ONT Orthodox New Testament volume 2, page 349).

Should we believe you, or St. Paul in 1 Tim. 2:3-4?

In Erie PA
Scott Harrington


He would save them. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he "doeth according to his will" in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth' and none can stay his hand, or say uwnto him, What doest thou? Isa 50:2, Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? Mark 16:16, Pay particular attention as to what salvation he is talking about, it is not eternal salvation, but baptism saves (delivers) us from a guilty conscience, 1 Pet 3:21.
 
F

Forest

Guest
#37
Dear friend: God loves the world, including the wicked (John 3:16). God saves those who believe in Christ (John 3:16). While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, the Righteous One for the unrighteous. It is not Biblical to think of the wicked as "other people". All have sinned. All who believe in Christ can and shall be saved by Christ, because Christ's blood is shed for them (1 John 2:2).
The workers of iniquity are caught in the net of their own sins; it's not something God does, but what they do of themselves, and God lets them have what they want: iniquity. Sinners who repent of their iniquity and turn to Christ for forgiveness can obtain everlasting life (John 3:16). In Erie Scott R. Harrington
John 3:16 is not refering to the world of all mankind, but to the world of belivers only.
 
Jan 18, 2011
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John 3:16 is not refering to the world of all mankind, but to the world of belivers only.
That is not true, Forest. But because of what you believe, you must believe that or your theology falls apart (rightfully so).