Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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EleventhHour

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It feels good. But it doesn't feel like I was chosen "above" anyone else.
Although you deny this it is exactly what you believe you were chosen above someone else, otherwise what does God do spin a wheel of redemption?

At least even John Calvin was honest about it.

He shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. He is all powerful and could have stopped it from happening but he didn't. He gave the command and told them the consequences and then, let them make the choice of whether to obey or not. Same goes for now. He has commanded all men every where to repent, but they don't. This in no way makes him weak or inept...He simply gave the command and leaves it up to us to obey or not. But just like with Adam and Eve he has given consequences for our choice. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved or don't and be damned....

To say that because God gave us command and then a choice to accept and obey or reject somehow makes him weak or takes away from his power, is where I don't understand, your logic.
God, from the beginning of mankind in the form of Adam, gave mankind the freedom to choose out his life's changes as he sojourns here on earth, Mankind, as a whole, chose not to seek God, that is why he chose some of mankind to give a new heart to, so he would have someone to praise and honor him. because he saw, by his foreknowledge, that none would seek him, no, not one.

Christ's sacrifice on the cross was to pay for the sins of those that God gave him, but the sacrifice was made to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance.
 

ForestGreenCook

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The only thing you have accomplished is to concur with Mick Jagger that "you don't always get what you want" this is not
even remotely connected to the concept of "free will."

Another falsehood in your post>>>> forced regeneration preceding belief for the selected few.

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).

I guess Paul lied, according to you, he should have told the jailer there is nothing you can do to be saved except hope you are one of the chosen ones and are regenerated so that you can believe.

Paul preached truth not a MISERLY limited god.
Guess What? The jailer had already been regenerated with a new heart, that's why he fell down before Paul and Silas.

If you would check Greek interpretation, you would find that the word "saved" means "delivered". There is a deliverance in coming unto the knowledge of God's righteousness that we receive, after we have been born again, as we sojourn here in this world. The reference in this verse is a deliverance here in time, not eternal deliverance.

Believing is not the cause of our eternal deliverance, but is a product of being born again.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not pick up a bible of spiritual conversations, because he cannot make heads nor tails of it, and thinks spiritual things are foolish. I know that I keep beating you over the head with 1 Cor 2:14, but until you understand the content of that verse, we will never have a compatible conversation about the scriptures. I don't intend to be so blunt with my answers to you, but it seems that I have to repeat the same verses to you that I have already presented to you. God speed in your ability to learn.
The great hypocrisy here is that you believe that you are the one who discerns between the natural and the Spiritual folks. Those that agree with you are Spiritual and those who correct your obvious errors you declare to be natural men and blind to all things of the Holy Spirit.

Nonsense. I would say look into the mirror of the word of God but I fear for you it is obscured.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
"ForestGreenCook,

[I usually agree with most of your posts, ]

We should agree more than disagree

[ but we , evidently, differ on the the depth of the depravity of some of God's regenerated children. Just because we have been born again, does not mean that we do not still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature with us. This battle, as Paul explains in Romans 7, within us is much stronger on the natural side of some of us, than others.]

I agree rom. 7 is speaking of a Christian. There are still motions of sin in our body that we are able to mortify by the Spirit,Rom8:6-17

[Sometimes when the scriptures talk about "the wicked" it is talking about the unregenerate, as in Psalms 73, but most of the time, I believe, it is referencing the regenerate. As awful as the description of the people are in Romans 1, I believe it to be referring to the regenerated people of God.]

I do not agree with this. We are not under the dominion of the flesh, but rather under the dominion of the Spirit

[Some of the wording in Romans, verse 18 & 19, to me, does not harmonize with the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14.]

This is the portion of Romans 1 I was thinking of. It cannot be descriptive of a Christian;
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters,
haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
May 31, 2020
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Sorry, I did not, according to the content, deem it worthwhile to respond. First of all they were not created for destruction. I do believe that God gave the freedom of mankind to choose out his changes as he sojourns here on earth, but gave him no part in his eternal destination, and that, evidently, was man's downfall, because they choose not to seek God, no, not one. 1 Cor 2:14 describes all mankind, until God regenerated his elect. 100 percent of fallen mankind is what God had to select his elect from, had he not we would have all went to hell. No I do not shed one tear for their bad choices, but I have shed a few tears for my bad choice Sorry that I had not responded to that particular post. I try to respond to all of the posts that are directed to me.
It’s good to see you don’t believe anyone has been created for destruction because that’s EXACTLY what several of your calvinist compandres have openly, emphatically stated.

On a slightly different note, why would our omniscient, omnipotent Creator, give us freedom to maneuver at will in the confines of fleshly life but restrict our freedom regarding choosing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Everyone who has come to Christ has been guided by God, no question about that, however one must still make a conscious decision whether or not to believe.
With the mind man believes unto salvation.....a clear choice to accept and believe!
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Although you deny this it is exactly what you believe you were chosen above someone else, otherwise what does God do spin a wheel of redemption?

At least even John Calvin was honest about it.

He shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921
You have a problem with what John Calvin says here?

You would rather it say Men do not indiscriminately adopt themselves into the hope of Salvation but deny themselves what others adopt themselves into?:ROFL:
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The great hypocrisy here is that you believe that you are the one who discerns between the natural and the Spiritual folks. Those that agree with you are Spiritual and those who correct your obvious errors you declare to be natural men and blind to all things of the Holy Spirit.

Nonsense. I would say look into the mirror of the word of God but I fear for you it is obscured.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roger, We all, myself included, try to determine what is in the mind of other people when we are discussing the scriptures. The trouble is, with most of us, is that we do not know at all what's in someone else's mind, unless we come right out directly, and ask them.

I dare say, probably, no one on this forum agrees with my understanding of the scriptures 100%, and I believe that they all are regenerated, to be included in who I see as being one of God's elect, or they would not be on this forum trying to defend their beliefs in the scriptures, unless some of them are atheist

We all are born into this world, as natural beings contaminated with the sins of Adam. We remain in that state until God quickens us to a new spiritual life.

Just because a regenerated child of God believes in a doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine that Jesus taught, does not mean that he will not go to heaven.

None of us are deserving of a heavenly home, and all of us do, at times, fall back into our old fleshly nature, and are in need of repentance to regain our fellowship with God, but we never lose our eternal inheritance

When we are born again, according to Eph 2:5, we are quickened together with Christ. Jesus said in John 12:47, And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Does this make "believing" a product of regeneration, instead of the cause of regeneration?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
How can they all have the ability to repent and come to Christ unless they are good?
Total depravity aka Total Inability... emphasis on TOTAL

From a famed Calvinist...
In and of himself the natural man has power to reject Christ; but in and of himself he has not the power to receive Christ (Pink, Sovereignty of God, p. 128)

Perfect set up for regeneration preceding belief, necessitating irresistible grace the un-biblical doctrines.
Not supported by any scripture.

God forbid people actually come to Christ and believe, by the power of the message ... NO... we can't have that, might take away some of my shine as being forcibly chosen.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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It’s good to see you don’t believe anyone has been created for destruction because that’s EXACTLY what several of your calvinist compandres have openly, emphatically stated.

On a slightly different note, why would our omniscient, omnipotent Creator, give us freedom to maneuver at will in the confines of fleshly life but restrict our freedom regarding choosing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
God does not leave it up to us to choose him, Because Psalms 53:2-3 tells us that by God's foreknowledge he saw that no one would seek (choose) him, no, not one. In our simple minds, it would have been more profitable for God to have not given us any freedom at all, and predestined all mankind to eternal life, but we do not know the mind of God, except to have faith that whatsoever he does or does not do is his will, and that his will is best for us. We can also apply that thought to our present day situation, and have no fear.

I have told a lot of people on this forum, including decon, that I have never read any of Calvin's writings, but what I have heard of them, I do not agree with all of his beliefs. I guess you must have not noticed.

I believe that the scriptures prove themselves, and should be our only council, along with a Greek concordance, and the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Total depravity aka Total Inability... emphasis on TOTAL

From a famed Calvinist...
In and of himself the natural man has power to reject Christ; but in and of himself he has not the power to receive Christ (Pink, Sovereignty of God, p. 128)

Perfect set up for regeneration preceding belief, necessitating irresistible grace the un-biblical doctrines.
Not supported by any scripture.

God forbid people actually come to Christ and believe, by the power of the message ... NO... we can't have that, might take away some of my shine as being forcibly chosen.
You seem to look "truth" right in the face, and not recognise it. Could it be that you are one of his wise and prudent regenerated children in whom he has hidden the truth from?
 
Total depravity aka Total Inability... emphasis on TOTAL

From a famed Calvinist...
In and of himself the natural man has power to reject Christ; but in and of himself he has not the power to receive Christ (Pink, Sovereignty of God, p. 128)

Perfect set up for regeneration preceding belief, necessitating irresistible grace the un-biblical doctrines.
Not supported by any scripture.

God forbid people actually come to Christ and believe, by the power of the message ... NO... we can't have that, might take away some of my shine as being forcibly chosen.
You are without excuse as you quote the accurate description offered by A.W.Pink.
No man can come unto Jesus unless the Father draws him.
So you resist the teaching of scripture itself, when you claim that unsaved natural men are willing or able to come apart from God drawing them.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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With the mind man believes unto salvation.....a clear choice to accept and believe!
You must be among the wise and prudent that the truths in the scriptures are hidden from. Romans 10, beginning in verse 1 starts off talking about and to regenerated children of God.

Paul is praying that these children of God will be delivered (saved), who are ignorant of God's righteousness and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the works of the old law, and not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God

There is a deliverance, here in time, for regenerated children of God to be delivered (saved) from their ignorance of the gospel

You may study from a different version of the bible than I do, but in my version your wording of Romans 10:10 is different; My version says; with the HEART, Your version says; with the MIND, My version says; believeth unto RIGHTEOUSNESS, Your version says; believeth unto SALVATION,

The HEART that can believe is the new fleshy heart that is given in the new birth, replacing the stony heart

It is downright alarming how many versions of the bible will change the inspired wording of God to try to teach that mankind has a choice in his eternal destination, completely eliminating God's grace.
 
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