Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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GrimmBro3

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Jul 10, 2020
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Just realized that the Trinity might have been a better example to use than the rapture in my response to Chester.

Modalism denies the trinity, and instead says that God is one person who takes on three different roles. So, that when He's the Father, there is no Son, or Holy Spirit, at that time. When He's the Son, there is no Father or Holy Spirit at that time, etc.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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If scripture never says they are predestined to hell...then they aren’t....I only go by scripture....I cannot think outside of that.
Just look carefully at what Scripture does say about predestination and you will find a beautiful truth!
 

GrimmBro3

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If it were left up to us to choose God, we'd all go to hell. Apart from unconditional election and irresistible grace, we'd have no hope. If grace could be resisted - we'd resist it.

Romans 3:10 -18

as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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If you're modalist. If you're a trinitarian (which I think you are?), then your statement there is false. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father, etc. But they are God. One God, three persons, distinct from one another.
Loopy. Where are we going with that?:unsure:
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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If it were left up to us to choose God, we'd all go to hell. Apart from unconditional election and irresistible grace, we'd have no hope. If grace could be resisted - we'd resist it.
I chose to surrender to the love of Jesus and to be cleansed by His blood. That is why I have a home in Heaven.
 

GrimmBro3

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Jul 10, 2020
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I chose to surrender to the love of Jesus and to be cleansed by His blood. That is why I have a home in Heaven.
Wonderful grace of Jesus. Isn't it glorious to think of our eternal home in the presence of our King? Oh, to see King Jesus!
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Romans 3:10 -18

as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Amen. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus came down and died on the Cross. He died for all. Now all have a choice.
 

GrimmBro3

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Jul 10, 2020
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Now all have a choice.
Yep - all have a choice - and except for the grace of God, we still choose to reject Him. Nothing about the natural state of man apart from God has changed after the cross. Just as they would not choose Him before the cross, they will not choose Him now, except that God first calls them to life through faith in the finished work Jesus.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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I chose to surrender.?.
It is my understanding from Scripture that this is only what those "who were born...of God" would do, John 1:12-13, and all this is only due to him and his glory, not mans will from which it did not stem.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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First, when you say, “I just go by what the Word says: no less and no more…”, this in itself is a doctrinal statement – well, more of a creed if you will. Is it man-made? Sure – not in a bad way, though – it’s a statement made by you, and you are part of mankind. Doctrinal statements and creeds (I recognize that I’m bringing up the subject of creeds here, and that creeds may not have been mention previous to this post in this thread), are an organized presentation of what men and women before us have put together as they studied the scriptures themselves. As you study the scriptures, you’ll come up with your own doctrinal statements. For example, “Salvation through faith alone” is a doctrinal statement.
Yeah, of course you are right - so I did make a doctrinal statement - OK - now what? LOL!

Second, and I hope this doesn’t open a whole can of worms, so I’ll not say what I believe regarding the rapture, but do you hold to the teaching that Christ will rapture the church from the earth prior to a time of great tribulation? Did you know that the word “rapture” never occurs in the Bible, nor is it ever explicitly taught in the Bible to occur? It’s assumed – whether right or wrong – because of the perceived absence of the church after a certain point in Revelation.

My point isn’t to say whether or not this doctrine is right or wrong, but rather to present a possible doctrine that you may agree with that may find its place in the category that you place the 5 Solas in.

Also, what are our pastors doing on Sunday mornings except sharing with us what they’ve come away from the Scriptures with? It’s doctrine, Lord willing, sound doctrine, but doctrine none-the-less.
On the "rapture": everything you say I agree with - My opinion leans toward a rapture, but I do not begin with that or state it as something I believe. The Scriptures need to be our starting point - not a statement like: "I believe in a midtrib rapture, etc."

You mention the "Trinity" doctrine later here: I have no squabbles with the "doctrine of the Trinity" - but I do not post it on my door or quote it when I preach. If I want to speak about the Godhead, I will use the Bible and not church doctrine.


You mention that we won’t find the 5 Solas mentioned anywhere in Scripture. Do you mean that we won’t find them as an explicit list in the Scriptures, or that they have no support in the Scriptures? I want to make sure I’m answering your response adequately, and not making a false assumption on what is meant.

Any cry of a creed or doctrinal statement without fully understanding what is meant by it, and without living out what is taught by it certainly can and does lead to lukewarmness and passivity. I agree with you on this point.

At the same time, we shouldn’t toss the baby out with the bathwater. There are many who know what is meant by “Faith Alone”, and hold to that truth without hypocrisy. Should they be discouraged from holding that as one of their doctrinal statements? Should we leave off with using “Faith Alone” because some got it wrong – and discourage the proper use of it by others who hold to its truth?
On the 5 Solas - Of course you won't find the list in Scripture - and your question "or that they have no support in the Scriptures"? I won't even go there because the approach is backward. The question assumes starting with the 5 solas and finding evidence for them. Of course you will find "evidence" for them and you will argue it. I much prefer to discuss the Scripture verses instead of trying to defend a doctrinal statement!.

If you write out for me what the 5 solas mean to you, I will likely agree with most of it. But I will likely respond by saying that it is missing key thoughts of Scripture. Our starting point must be the Scriptural text.

The "faith alone" statement is a classic example of this quandary. At its core the emphasis is that we are saved by faith, and not by works. 100% true and I agree. But we are not saved by "faith alone" - in fact a faith alone is a dead faith according to James. Hence I start with Scripture . . . (My view of course!) :p


At the same time, we shouldn’t toss the baby out with the bathwater. There are many who know what is meant by “Faith Alone”, and hold to that truth without hypocrisy. Should they be discouraged from holding that as one of their doctrinal statements? Should we leave off with using “Faith Alone” because some got it wrong – and discourage the proper use of it by others who hold to its truth?
LOL! With the "faith alone" I have thrown the baby out with the bath water - and I am not bringing either back in - LOL!

In some settings and places for some people, maybe using that phrase is helpful: but for me where I am it has been detrimental and devastating!

I’ve included the quotes from your post, not to pick what you said apart, but to show where various parts of my response is addressing what you said. I’m not sure if that’s standard practice on CC, but I know it can be perceived as nit-picky. My intent is sincere.

Also, I appreciate your thoughtful interaction here! Thank you. I hope we can continue to dialogue together on these matters. If I’ve omitted anything in my response that you wanted me to address, please let me know. I’ll be glad to revisit and respond to anything I might have missed.
It is an accepted practice and often helpful to do as you did. But don't pick a quote from someone apart to make it say what they did not intend - that will get you in hot water on CC very quickly. I don't know that you have omitted anything: and the "normal" here on CC is that you do not have to and are not necessarily expected to respond to every detail someone might ask. You can just politely respond with an overall response to a longer text. We all know we have other things other than CC in our lives! (except for a few folks around here . . . :eek:) And with that I am out until at least Monday . . .
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Apart from unconditional election and irresistible grace, we'd have no hope.
Really? Apart from the doctrine of "unconditional election" and "irresistable grace" we would have no hope? Pity the people who lived before Calvin came up with those words!

I would say it more like: Apart from God, we have no hope. But better than that - What does the Bible say? (and I know - LOL - "What does the Bible say? is a doctrinal statement!)

But you may keep your TULIP as your starting point. I will start with Scripture!

(not trying to be sarcastic or mean - just trying to get you to see how I think)
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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But you may keep your TULIP as your starting point. I will start with Scripture!
Who is now trying to stir the pot by resurrecting this ancient thread? TULIP is what Paul calls "another gospel". BEWARE OF ALL OTHER GOSPELS.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Yep - all have a choice
Well PTL! I didn't know that TULIP allowed for that. So it all boils down to God's omniscience and looking ahead into the future to see who will have chosen Him. I am comfortable with that.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Who is now trying to stir the pot by resurrecting this ancient thread? TULIP is what Paul calls "another gospel". BEWARE OF ALL OTHER GOSPELS.
I don't like TULIP and I think the results of this doctrinal teaching have been devastating to this country - but I don't think it is another "gospel". It affirms the core belief that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and is not of works.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Well PTL! I didn't know that TULIP allowed for that. So it all boils down to God's omniscience and looking ahead into the future to see who will have chosen Him. I am comfortable with that.
Oyster 67 - When 5 point Calvinism is explained well by a Calvinist it turns out to not be that far from what you and I believe - sad part is it only gets one side of the story -

The real problem is that if you start with the doctrinal statement and follow them to their logical human conclusion it is a real mess!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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You can't have it both ways. TULIP is either the true Gospel or it is indeed "another gospel". There cannot be two true Gospels.
Galatians 1:6,7: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another (Greek - heteros) gospel: Which is not another (Greek - allos); but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

The Galatians had gone to a heteros gospel (another of a different kind). It was not an allos gospel (another of the same kind).

I think TULIP is an allos gospel, not a heteros gospel.

And for myself, I will rejoice over Christ being preached and proclaimed, even if it is with a different slant than I think is best. But if Christ is not preached, then you have a heteros gospel.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Oyster 67 - When 5 point Calvinism is explained well by a Calvinist it turns out to not be that far from what you and I believe - sad part is it only gets one side of the story -

The real problem is that if you start with the doctrinal statement and follow them to their logical human conclusion it is a real mess!
I wish we could just drop all these labels and phrases and ask;

"Do All Have A Choice"?
 
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