Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[soggykitten]

I would offer. Two side to every coin. Give to God what is his and to mankind which is theirs. Salvation is of the Lord.

The gospel is not take a chance at gambling, spin the wheel but God taking a choice. Salvation never once stood as a chance. Faith is believing not guessing. If he has begun the good work of drawing he will finish it to the end

Its not about the unbelieving Elitist but the Elected . As many as as the father has given to the Son, they alone can come. No man can unless the father is giving them words to draw them toward him not seen, Not one more of three thousand less.

" Many" is the key or missing link..

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

It would seem as many who do have the treasure hid in their new hearts .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ .Then neither do they belong as one of the many

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. . . . . . . (the powerless, faithless)

That must have taken quite a bit of time to put in all those different colors to make your point.

I would respond by saying there is a great deal of difference between a God that is Omniscient, and a God that is Fatalistic.

Since the pre determined unto salvation clique graft scriptures together to make a very bad impression of God, I'll blend scriptures to respond to you and reface God in his blessed light. Bear with me, no colors.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through The Word that is Christ. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Jesus said , Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in the Bible. but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yep he did
how?
by promising that all who saw and believed would have eternal life
not by selections some to see and refusing the give many the inability to see
not sure why you think an all loving merciful patient God would even think of doing a thing sis

Probably because Scripture says so and she happens to believe all of it.

God isn't just a merciful God, as you truncate his attributes incessantly to fit this to your narrative. He exercises mercy on whom he wills, and hardens some not showing them mercy. That's a fact, and he is just to do so. He has full right to judge any man in sin, and exercise justice on any man at will without them having an opportunity to "choose" or even hear the Gospel.

Note everyone the text in Exodus 33:12-23; Romans 9:11ff.

God has elected whom he willed to save by his purpose, counsel and will, based upon nothing good in them, not based in that they would choose him, but solely based in his purpose, counsel and will, and is pure unmerited favor, aka grace.

You don't like those facts and try to put him in a box to fit into your logic of what you deem to be "fair."

Guess what?

God doesn't bow to any mans demands of what he may deem to be fair, or of what man may deem unfair and then claim he cannot be God. He's God in spite of mans demands.

He does as he wills as said above. One can believe the testimony of Scripture that proves this, or one can be the man in Romans 9:19-20.

@Rosemaryx I am glad to see how you have grown in Scripture, grace, knowledge and haven't allowed truncated versions of "God" and man made narratives of how he should act to affect you. Stick to the whole counsel of God. Do not feel intimidated by any man.

 

[soggykitten]

Adam and Eve believed the lie making the word of God without effect .

In effect Satan the Sadist said you will not surely die and your temporal body will not return to the dust from where it came and the temporal spirit subject to the law will not return to that father of all spirits.

There no sufferings after death called purgatory (a unknown amount of sufferings as to the severity or time period .The illusion of the father of lies . God is not a Sadist. He takes no pleasure in the death of a saint

Those who are given a new born again spirit will rise on the last day .The same day the letter of the law death will be cast into the judgment fire. It will not rise and condemn to death through suffering (corruption) a whole creation ever again

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What I don't think Fatalists realize as they cleave to the five predetermined doorways to salvation is, following that those five are all true, it was God who made the fall occur because he planted the tree bearing the fruit that would lead to it. Being Omniscient there was no other avenue afforded Adam and Eve but that which God prearranged.

 

[EleventhHour]

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Did God not chose us before the foundation of the world? , why would He chose us if we were to rebel against Him like unbelievers rebel , like we rebelled against Him before He called us...
Do you not think that God knew we would accept His calling , He had already chosen us to be in Him...
...xox...

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Ephesians 1:4

Paul is stating is that which Christians have in Christ (v.3), which is exclusive access to God’s spiritual blessings, outside of which, there are zero spiritual blessings.

One must be a Christian to have these blessings

The Calvinist however, is stating that which an elect group has in the Father, with the result of being spiritually blessed to be chosen to become believers. Thus, Calvinism is the very antithesis of Pauline theology. AND WRONG

 

[Micaiah-imla]

That must have taken quite a bit of time to put in all those different colors to make your point.

I would respond by saying there is a great deal of difference between a God that is Omniscient, and a God that is Fatalistic.

Since the pre determined unto salvation clique graft scriptures together to make a very bad impression of God, I'll blend scriptures to respond to you and reface God in his blessed light. Bear with me, no colors.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through The Word that is Christ. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Jesus said , Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in the Bible. but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I like that text font you put the scriptures in; made for pleasant reading.

 

[EleventhHour]

Probably because Scripture says so and she happens to believe all of it.

God isn't just a merciful God, as you truncate his attributes incessantly to fit this to your narrative. He exercises mercy on whom he wills, and hardens some not showing them mercy. That's a fact, and he is just to do so. He has full right to judge any man in sin, and exercise justice on any man at will without them having an opportunity to "choose" or even hear the Gospel.

Note everyone the text in Exodus 33:12-23; Romans 9:11ff.

God has elected whom he willed to save by his purpose, counsel and will, based upon nothing good in them, not based in that they would choose him, but solely based in his purpose, counsel and will, and is pure unmerited favor, aka grace.

You don't like those facts and try to put him in a box to fit into your logic of what you deem to be "fair."

Guess what?

God doesn't bow to any mans demands of what he may deem to be fair, or of what man may deem unfair and then claim he cannot be God. He's God in spite of mans demands.

He does as he wills as said above. One can believe the testimony of Scripture that proves this, or one can be the man in Romans 9:19-20.

@Rosemaryx I am glad to see how you have grown in Scripture, grace, knowledge and haven't allowed truncated versions of "God" and man made narratives of how he should act to affect you. Stick to the whole counsel of God. Do not feel intimidated by any man.

Calvinism creates this big hole and then the answer has to be>>>>>> well God does not have to tell us. This God of Calvin is barely knowable and understandable.

No one is demanding from God. God had chosen to give.

And @Rosemary all this is wrong.

 

[lenna]

You are “telling “ me why I’m passive aggressive...haaaaa,that is funny.

I asked you innocently if you are secure in your faith..nothing to do with my fruit.
Did I say that I have more than others from the Lord?

Being saved by Christ the same as everyone else doesn’t sit nicely with me....an assumption from you not truth.
I Love to Praise my Father In Heaven and will continue to do so.

okey dokey

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 9:18
So then, he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Maybe sometimes we look through our human eyes , for God`s ways are not our ways says the LORD...
...xox...

Romans 9 is about God chiding isreal Not choosing to save one baby and condemning another to hell before they are born

Sometimes when you study you have to set preconceived notions behind.

Hardening ones heart means strengthening their desire to do what they really want to do to begin with

 

[EleventhHour]

Probably because Scripture says so and she happens to believe all of it.

God isn't just a merciful God, as you truncate his attributes incessantly to fit this to your narrative. He exercises mercy on whom he wills, and hardens some not showing them mercy. That's a fact, and he is just to do so. He has full right to judge any man in sin, and exercise justice on any man at will without them having an opportunity to "choose" or even hear the Gospel.

Note everyone the text in Exodus 33:12-23; Romans 9:11ff.

God has elected whom he willed to save by his purpose, counsel and will, based upon nothing good in them, not based in that they would choose him, but solely based in his purpose, counsel and will, and is pure unmerited favor, aka grace.

You don't like those facts and try to put him in a box to fit into your logic of what you deem to be "fair."

Guess what?

God doesn't bow to any mans demands of what he may deem to be fair, or of what man may deem unfair and then claim he cannot be God. He's God in spite of mans demands.

He does as he wills as said above. One can believe the testimony of Scripture that proves this, or one can be the man in Romans 9:19-20.

@Rosemaryx I am glad to see how you have grown in Scripture, grace, knowledge and haven't allowed truncated versions of "God" and man made narratives of how he should act to affect you. Stick to the whole counsel of God. Do not feel intimidated by any man.

I am sure @Rosemary can think for herself. I feel like you are nervous she will realize the problems with your system?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Biblical, not complicated.

You've taken yet another passage out of context. Revelation 3:20 is written to the church, not the lost nor the world at large. It is not a universal invitation to eternal salvation. Your misusage of the text is another failure to heed 2 Timothy 2:15.

A while back you made claims about irresistible grace, then concluded some false assumptions. I asked for clarity, so can you now tell me what you think it teaches?

Why don’t you answer the questions about who in here believes what you claim before demanding someone else answer you

 

[EleventhHour]

Romans 9 is about God chiding isreal Not choosing to save one baby and condemning another to hell before they are born

Sometimes when you study you have to set preconceived notions behind.

Hardening ones heart means strengthening their desire to do what they really want to do to begin with

Agree, everybody knows this but the Calvinists apparently.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are called to go out into the world and preach the gospel , ( many ) but only those with faith from God will hear...
...xox...

but sometimes it take god years to get them to that point of faith. They may reject it 100 times before they finally see and come to faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am looking into this, but as far as I can see throughout scripture...those he chose to harden such as Pharaoh, all had choices in the matter. He gave them opportunity but they all chose to go against him. They chose not to retain God in their knowledge and became reprobates. Romans 1:28 shows that even the reprobates had a choice.

The word harden actually means to strengthen it embolden

Pharaoh it is said hardened his own heart many times. Other times. Jesus put things in his site to strengthen his resolve. Pharaoh did what he wanted. God did not make him do
Anything. Or keep the truth from him

 

[garee]

What I don't think Fatalists realize as they cleave to the five predetermined doorways to salvation is, following that those five are all true, it was God who made the fall occur because he planted the tree bearing the fruit that would lead to it. Being Omniscient there was no other avenue afforded Adam and Eve but that which God prearranged.

There is more than five, and they rearranged that which God prearranged.

He did not cause the fall. God set up a law punishable by death to see if mankind would worship him by faith. Faith, the things not seen revealed by hearing. It was not his desire that they perform the will of another Ssssss. . .saying ; "you will not surely die. Look at me a live. . who needs faith?" The glory of God departed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok to many pages to go through. Busy thread I will go to posts where people responded to me first and go from there

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not getting what you mean here.

It means you can believe them. It does not mean I will or ever will

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now then bro....you got your claws out tonight....why involve me in your disagreement with preacher?

If that’s what you think this is. Then you are mistaken

He made a comment to you. I just asked him to practice what he preaches. You know what he did. Are you now saying what he did was ok?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Probably because Scripture says so and she happens to believe all of it.

God isn't just a merciful God, as you truncate his attributes incessantly to fit this to your narrative. He exercises mercy on whom he wills, and hardens some not showing them mercy. That's a fact, and he is just to do so. He has full right to judge any man in sin, and exercise justice on any man at will without them having an opportunity to "choose" or even hear the Gospel.

Note everyone the text in Exodus 33:12-23; Romans 9:11ff.

God has elected whom he willed to save by his purpose, counsel and will, based upon nothing good in them, not based in that they would choose him, but solely based in his purpose, counsel and will, and is pure unmerited favor, aka grace.

You don't like those facts and try to put him in a box to fit into your logic of what you deem to be "fair."

Guess what?

God doesn't bow to any mans demands of what he may deem to be fair, or of what man may deem unfair and then claim he cannot be God. He's God in spite of mans demands.

He does as he wills as said above. One can believe the testimony of Scripture that proves this, or one can be the man in Romans 9:19-20.

@Rosemaryx I am glad to see how you have grown in Scripture, grace, knowledge and haven't allowed truncated versions of "God" and man made narratives of how he should act to affect you. Stick to the whole counsel of God. Do not feel intimidated by any man.

A lot of personal opinion here. I will wait to see you respond to the scripture I posted.

 

[soggykitten]

There is more than five,

He did not cause the fall. God set up a law punishable by death to see if mankind would worship him by faith. Faith, the things not seen revealed by hearing. It was not his desire that they perform the will of another Ssssss. . .saying ; "you will not surely die. Look at me a live. . who needs faith?" The glory of God departed.

Impossible.
Here I am stirring the pot I spoke about earlier. Quirky. I choose to see it as answering questions to inform why I'm not of the Tulip variety.
Not planning or expecting to pluck the flower appointed from their precious space in the garden.


God cannot do something to see if. God is Omniscient. Being Omniscient, knowing all things eternally, is different than being Fatalistic and Deterministic.
Sure, God knows all things eternally as that creator of all things. However, that is a world of difference between that knowing, foresight, to pre arranging all things to happen to reiterate to himself that he is all powerful God.

If God pre arranged salvation for a select number of persons before creating anything per Genesis, then that tells me God pre determined the fate of those select number of persons not yet in existence.
That then tells me, referring to the five points here, that believing God made all people to be totally depraved and incapable of holding faith in him at all, the T part of Tulip, while considering the forthcoming venture into the U part, that the J part of the story makes no sense at all.
God wouldn't have to beget himself into this world in order to accomplish what he already pre determined would happen before the world existed at all.
It's all God all the time and humans, by God's design, have been created by God to have no other capacity but to meet the fate God pre arranged for each and every one. A person does not have faith, faith is not what it is described as, when it is God's act that imparts into a human being he's pre chosen to save, faith in him. And when that person was pre determined to be saved no matter what and by God before anything was created, that person would not need to be imbued with confidence and trust that God exists when God predetermined that person would be saved by him before any person was ever created.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

The truth of the matter is decisional regeneration, free will choosing ones self into heaven, meriting salvation because God saw a person would choose are all unbiblical doctrines that came from Charles Finney, Jacobus Arminius aka Jakob Hermanszoon, and Robert Sandeman. Their teachings are not representative of the biblical gospel. Unbeknownst to several on here they are following these mens false teachings.

I have never heard of these men before.

I have been reading the scriptures for many years and never came the conclusion that man has absolutely no choice in matters of faith.

But what I do see in scripture is that God works in whatever way He pleases. God is not limited in His work with man; the scriptures clearly speak of BOTH the free will of man and God's all-knowing ability to predestine whatever he chooses to predestine.