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Another term that needs defining, even by Arminians. Free will gives the impression we can choose a life of perfection making a savior obsolete. It is the Pelagean heresy. Absolute free will leads to no other conclusion.
The reformed belief is that of the bondage of the will. We have a will, but it is limited by our nature. Paul says that:
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
This is just one of many, many passages that describe our natural state and our inability to do what is pleasing to God unless we are born again of the Spirit.
The reformed belief is that of the bondage of the will. We have a will, but it is limited by our nature. Paul says that:
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
This is just one of many, many passages that describe our natural state and our inability to do what is pleasing to God unless we are born again of the Spirit.
Men have a will, it's just that the it's subject to man's nature, before the holy spirit working in us, our will is in bondage to sin, when the holy spirit works in us, then man has a new nature and acts accordingly to that new nature which comes from the spirit of God.
[h=1]Ephesians 2New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]Made Alive in Christ[/h][FONT="]2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.[/FONT]
[h=1]Ephesians 2New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]Made Alive in Christ[/h][FONT="]2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.[/FONT]
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I know! It can be confusing. Pretty much I think I've always been Reformed but didn't know it. After listening to and reading many Reformed preachers, Sproul, Kennedy, Boice, MacArthur, Lloyd-Jones and others left me wondering why they brought so much more truth to the table when speaking. Back then I didn't even know what Calvinism was. Through the process of time, and God showing me His Sovereignty &c via reading Scripture and the Spirit illumined these truths I was floored with the awesomeness of God, His Sovereignty, Divine electing grace and got down and praised Him on my knees as God. I was literally humbled, fearful, and grateful to Him and just had to get on my knees.
The way Scriptures opened up at that point is unbelievable. God is so good and gracious! As far as Calvin, no I have not read him, but there is nothing really dramatically different between what he teaches in general and what mainline Reformed teachings state.
I could probably recommend to you some really really good books though? Studies in the Sermon on the Mount by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is phenomenal! And "The Way to True Happiness" by Robert Harris is a really wonderful book and will bless you.
There's a couple, sorry I know you didn't ask.
The way Scriptures opened up at that point is unbelievable. God is so good and gracious! As far as Calvin, no I have not read him, but there is nothing really dramatically different between what he teaches in general and what mainline Reformed teachings state.
I could probably recommend to you some really really good books though? Studies in the Sermon on the Mount by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is phenomenal! And "The Way to True Happiness" by Robert Harris is a really wonderful book and will bless you.
There's a couple, sorry I know you didn't ask.
D
(Busy day, so coming late to this party.)
Whereas I do agree with everything you wrote, I do want to clarify something for Kayla, (and anyone else interested in what we believe.) You started with the premise that Jesus wasn't an afterthought -- Redemption through Christ wasn't an afterthought. I agree, however that gets into another area Reformers don't agree on too -- supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. Sure enough, some Reformers really do believe the redemption was an afterthought. (And sure enough, that really was a cause for division within a denomination.)
Personally, seems like a stupid reason to split, however Reformers can believe either side of that argument and still be considered Reformed Theology. Kayla is trying to figure out what we all believe. We believe many things, as individuals, but some things we believe that make us Reformed. I think it would be good to stick to those, or it gets exploded to kingdom come all over again. (Figuratively, pun not intended.)
Whereas I do agree with everything you wrote, I do want to clarify something for Kayla, (and anyone else interested in what we believe.) You started with the premise that Jesus wasn't an afterthought -- Redemption through Christ wasn't an afterthought. I agree, however that gets into another area Reformers don't agree on too -- supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. Sure enough, some Reformers really do believe the redemption was an afterthought. (And sure enough, that really was a cause for division within a denomination.)
Personally, seems like a stupid reason to split, however Reformers can believe either side of that argument and still be considered Reformed Theology. Kayla is trying to figure out what we all believe. We believe many things, as individuals, but some things we believe that make us Reformed. I think it would be good to stick to those, or it gets exploded to kingdom come all over again. (Figuratively, pun not intended.)
Know one outside of Christ is really free, John 8:35ff. Scripture teaches us that man is hostile toward God, and do not seek Him, Romans 3:10ff. Those who believe they come to God via free will are misunderstanding their lost position. This is usually juxtaposed with an ideology that God only wants genuine love, so leaves it up to them, and since they came to Him in love, then it is genuine. Just think it through for a while - they are saying they came to God because they had genuine love for Him, yet Scripture speaks of their hostility. Of course it can get more complicated, but that's the basic misnomer of free will.
"I am of opinion that the will is always more inclined towards the course it adopts, but that it is never bound by the necessity to adopt it.
That it will adopt this course is certain, but it is not necessary. "
"We will to act, strictly speaking, and we do not will to will; else we could still say that we will to have the will to will, and that would go on to infinity.
Besides, we do not always follow the latest judgement of practical understanding when we resolve to will; but we always follow, in our willing, the result of all the inclinations that come from the direction both of reasons and passions, and this often happens without an express judgement of the understanding."
G.W. Leibniz, Theodicy
That it will adopt this course is certain, but it is not necessary. "
"We will to act, strictly speaking, and we do not will to will; else we could still say that we will to have the will to will, and that would go on to infinity.
Besides, we do not always follow the latest judgement of practical understanding when we resolve to will; but we always follow, in our willing, the result of all the inclinations that come from the direction both of reasons and passions, and this often happens without an express judgement of the understanding."
G.W. Leibniz, Theodicy
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The Bible says man comes to repentance through the goodness of God [Romans 2] That goodness is the power of God's love towards a sinner that understands their true lost condition, but is undone by the fact God still loves them despite their condition. Never forget that while we were yet sinners God still loved us.[Romans 5]
In my words:
Do we have a free will in the sense that we are perfectly neutral on any two choices? No, whenever we choose something, there is always some inclination we follow. And we cannot control our inclinations. This makes the predestination possible.
Do we have a free will in the sense that nobody (God included) forces us to choose this or that? Yes, I think so. Thats why God can judge us for our deeds.
Do we have a free will in the sense that we are perfectly neutral on any two choices? No, whenever we choose something, there is always some inclination we follow. And we cannot control our inclinations. This makes the predestination possible.
Do we have a free will in the sense that nobody (God included) forces us to choose this or that? Yes, I think so. Thats why God can judge us for our deeds.
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"Nature cries out for the nutriment that is appropriate to it; and if you know people whom you think are Christians, and who themselves think they are Christians, but who do not want the preaching of the Word, and do not revel in it, and rejoice in it, and want as much as they can possibly get of it, I suggest that the right question to ask about them is, 'Are these people Christians?" D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones
I believe the good Doctor summed it up pretty well in the above quote. One who is bound in sin is not "free" in his will, and draws from the nutriments that are according to his character. We should really think that through because it applies to the lost and to the professing believer. Evidence of conversion is very important, and so too examination.
I believe the good Doctor summed it up pretty well in the above quote. One who is bound in sin is not "free" in his will, and draws from the nutriments that are according to his character. We should really think that through because it applies to the lost and to the professing believer. Evidence of conversion is very important, and so too examination.
D
How do you feel about the word Arminian? "Calvinist" is something like that word. It started out as an insult, but turned into the word most people understand for what we believe. Now we're somewhere between wondering if we're being insulted, or if the person just doesn't know the other word.
Same thing with Arminian. (Doubly complicated, because I never remember which word means people who think a particular way or people who live in Armenia. One little letter confuses me.) It too started out as a slam. Now it's the word people know the best, even if they don't know what it means. Somehow another, I keep thinking "Wesleyan" is a better word, because of no insult intended, but I don't know if most people who believe in free will salvation understand it is a concept from Wesley.
And, honestly, I would use Wesleyan more often so that one little letter doesn't trip me (and my spellchecker) up all the time.
But Forth got that right. We do cringe at Calvinists a bit, mostly because we're not as nuts as it seems we ought to be. Calvin got stuff wrong. We don't follow him. We follow Christ through Reformed Theology. Just as you follow Christ through Wesleyan Theology.
As for changing denominations? The problem is not all Baptists are reformed. Not all Lutherans are reformed. Not all Presbyterians are reformed. And some that are reformed aren't any of those. I'm Presbyterian because hubby discovered James Boice happened to be the Teaching Elder at a local church. He (we) like James Boise (who has since died) and agree with his teachings, so that's where we went. Why keep looking once you found where you belong?
I don't know which Baptists are reformed, or which Lutherans. I'm not against any church that teaches Christ in a doctrinal position all Christians should have, but I'd be a menace to a church that also doesn't hold onto Reformed Theology. Truly, would you want me as a member of your church? We may love each other, but we'd drive each other nuts over theology. lol
It really helps to keep to a church that fits your theology.
(And back to busy day, so it might take me a bit to catch up.)
Same thing with Arminian. (Doubly complicated, because I never remember which word means people who think a particular way or people who live in Armenia. One little letter confuses me.) It too started out as a slam. Now it's the word people know the best, even if they don't know what it means. Somehow another, I keep thinking "Wesleyan" is a better word, because of no insult intended, but I don't know if most people who believe in free will salvation understand it is a concept from Wesley.
And, honestly, I would use Wesleyan more often so that one little letter doesn't trip me (and my spellchecker) up all the time.
But Forth got that right. We do cringe at Calvinists a bit, mostly because we're not as nuts as it seems we ought to be. Calvin got stuff wrong. We don't follow him. We follow Christ through Reformed Theology. Just as you follow Christ through Wesleyan Theology.
As for changing denominations? The problem is not all Baptists are reformed. Not all Lutherans are reformed. Not all Presbyterians are reformed. And some that are reformed aren't any of those. I'm Presbyterian because hubby discovered James Boice happened to be the Teaching Elder at a local church. He (we) like James Boise (who has since died) and agree with his teachings, so that's where we went. Why keep looking once you found where you belong?
I don't know which Baptists are reformed, or which Lutherans. I'm not against any church that teaches Christ in a doctrinal position all Christians should have, but I'd be a menace to a church that also doesn't hold onto Reformed Theology. Truly, would you want me as a member of your church? We may love each other, but we'd drive each other nuts over theology. lol
It really helps to keep to a church that fits your theology.
(And back to busy day, so it might take me a bit to catch up.)
What happens to the ones not "chosen" of God? I believe this is the fundamental error in only certain people are chosen by God and the others are rejected by Him "on purpose" despite the abundance of "whosever's and all and every person that believes" that the NT is full of.
If these ones not chosen go to hell - then this violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place - namely that God loves all the people in the world that He sent His Son to take the sin away.
The heart and mind of man is not designed by God to trust in "such a being" that would on purpose say that certain ones have been destined by God Himself to be in hell ( How ever that turns out to be like in the end ). This is a major violation of the true nature and character of God to begin with.
The truth is that Jesus is the Elect and Chosen One and all those that receive Him become elect and chosen too because we are one spirit with Him.
God no more predestines people to go to hell by His own choices for them then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.
Romans 10:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1 Timothy 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Prescribe and teach these things.
God is the Savior of all men - and especially of believers. Why believers? Because they believed the message of Christ when they heard the message of Him. Eph. 1:13
Jesus has already done the work necessary to bring about the "justification of life to all men" - He undid what Adam done to the human race. The same way all men were affected by Adam's transgression - so too all men have at their choice to believe what Christ has done for them by grace through faith alone.
Now all those that receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness through the Lord Jesus Christ will reign in life. His life.
Romans 5:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
We abundantly rejoice and praise our Lord and Savior for what He has already done for all people and we will tell them all. "That whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved - you and your household" we can boldly proclaim that salvation is to every one who believes in Him.
For through His name - everyone who believes receives the forgiveness of sins. Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world!
If these ones not chosen go to hell - then this violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place - namely that God loves all the people in the world that He sent His Son to take the sin away.
The heart and mind of man is not designed by God to trust in "such a being" that would on purpose say that certain ones have been destined by God Himself to be in hell ( How ever that turns out to be like in the end ). This is a major violation of the true nature and character of God to begin with.
The truth is that Jesus is the Elect and Chosen One and all those that receive Him become elect and chosen too because we are one spirit with Him.
God no more predestines people to go to hell by His own choices for them then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.
Romans 10:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
1 Timothy 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Prescribe and teach these things.
God is the Savior of all men - and especially of believers. Why believers? Because they believed the message of Christ when they heard the message of Him. Eph. 1:13
Jesus has already done the work necessary to bring about the "justification of life to all men" - He undid what Adam done to the human race. The same way all men were affected by Adam's transgression - so too all men have at their choice to believe what Christ has done for them by grace through faith alone.
Now all those that receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness through the Lord Jesus Christ will reign in life. His life.
Romans 5:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
We abundantly rejoice and praise our Lord and Savior for what He has already done for all people and we will tell them all. "That whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved - you and your household" we can boldly proclaim that salvation is to every one who believes in Him.
For through His name - everyone who believes receives the forgiveness of sins. Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world!
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