Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
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D
Hes he’s taken the Bible and broken it into two books instead of having one harmonious book. He says the OT saints were saved, but unregenerate. Sad. So, so sad. 
D
Dude! (Which I just learned is the same thing as "Sport" in your neck of the words.)
Have you ever been around a two-year-old in full temper tantrum mode? Assuming, everyone gets stuck with that scenario some time in our lives, (and I could probably make a case for that as part of the punishment STILL for the Fall lol), have you ever tried reasoning with that child? Have you ever tried arguing back with that child?
How did that work out for you?
Because it's working the same here. This is a two-year-old in full temper-tantrum mode. Logic, reason, words, nothing-but-nothing will get through. All that does is get the child wound up even more.
On the good side, we have had generational experience on how to tune it out.
Have you ever been around a two-year-old in full temper tantrum mode? Assuming, everyone gets stuck with that scenario some time in our lives, (and I could probably make a case for that as part of the punishment STILL for the Fall lol), have you ever tried reasoning with that child? Have you ever tried arguing back with that child?
How did that work out for you?
Because it's working the same here. This is a two-year-old in full temper-tantrum mode. Logic, reason, words, nothing-but-nothing will get through. All that does is get the child wound up even more.
On the good side, we have had generational experience on how to tune it out.
D
Going to have to disagree with you here, but for a different reason.
As it stands now, there are four sides, not merely "both sides."
By "both sides" you mean Calvinists and non-Calvinist. Got that. And agree. Both sides are represented here.
But two more sides showed up:
WoFers, which are neither, Cals or non-Cals.
And then there is Devo, who falls into "D. None of the above."
So, agreed we should all act mature, but more than just "both sides."
As it stands now, there are four sides, not merely "both sides."
By "both sides" you mean Calvinists and non-Calvinist. Got that. And agree. Both sides are represented here.
But two more sides showed up:
WoFers, which are neither, Cals or non-Cals.
And then there is Devo, who falls into "D. None of the above."
So, agreed we should all act mature, but more than just "both sides."
I've never witnessed a baby birth itself, but I've heard plenty of professing Christians convey they birthed themselves into the kingdom by casting a free will vote.
They seem to have developed this idea that somehow they just always loved God even when lost (contrary to his Word) and that they wanted to prove their love to God and came to him, denying the inability to do so expressed in Scripture. They also sought God, contrary to his word. Their ability is way over the top! When Jesus said we are unable, they proved him wrong and have a verse to prove it!
They did all this, and God wants it this way, because he wants people to come to him out of real true love for him, because then they prove they're not robots like those evil Calvinists, and did it out of their own precious sincerity. He now waits for people to come to him, he made the offer, and waits for people to exercise their innate ability.
And all this time I thought Jesus saved, not men, that he came to seek and save that which was lost, saved the ungodly, came to call sinners to repent, all being unable to save themselves or even come to him, having no love for God and actually being hostile toward him. Man, I've had it all wrong!
They seem to have developed this idea that somehow they just always loved God even when lost (contrary to his Word) and that they wanted to prove their love to God and came to him, denying the inability to do so expressed in Scripture. They also sought God, contrary to his word. Their ability is way over the top! When Jesus said we are unable, they proved him wrong and have a verse to prove it!
They did all this, and God wants it this way, because he wants people to come to him out of real true love for him, because then they prove they're not robots like those evil Calvinists, and did it out of their own precious sincerity. He now waits for people to come to him, he made the offer, and waits for people to exercise their innate ability.
And all this time I thought Jesus saved, not men, that he came to seek and save that which was lost, saved the ungodly, came to call sinners to repent, all being unable to save themselves or even come to him, having no love for God and actually being hostile toward him. Man, I've had it all wrong!
E
Going to have to disagree with you here, but for a different reason.
As it stands now, there are four sides, not merely "both sides."
By "both sides" you mean Calvinists and non-Calvinist. Got that. And agree. Both sides are represented here.
But two more sides showed up:
WoFers, which are neither, Cals or non-Cals.
And then there is Devo, who falls into "D. None of the above."
So, agreed we should all act mature, but more than just "both sides."
As it stands now, there are four sides, not merely "both sides."
By "both sides" you mean Calvinists and non-Calvinist. Got that. And agree. Both sides are represented here.
But two more sides showed up:
WoFers, which are neither, Cals or non-Cals.
And then there is Devo, who falls into "D. None of the above."
So, agreed we should all act mature, but more than just "both sides."
We should stop arguing like children do and start discussing ands being offended if someone disagrees with us, or thinking we have to take another side out because god has given us that job or whatever reason we use..
Going to have to disagree with you here, but for a different reason.
As it stands now, there are four sides, not merely "both sides."
By "both sides" you mean Calvinists and non-Calvinist. Got that. And agree. Both sides are represented here.
But two more sides showed up:
WoFers, which are neither, Cals or non-Cals.
And then there is Devo, who falls into "D. None of the above."
So, agreed we should all act mature, but more than just "both sides."
As it stands now, there are four sides, not merely "both sides."
By "both sides" you mean Calvinists and non-Calvinist. Got that. And agree. Both sides are represented here.
But two more sides showed up:
WoFers, which are neither, Cals or non-Cals.
And then there is Devo, who falls into "D. None of the above."
So, agreed we should all act mature, but more than just "both sides."
Why can't we just say members of the body of Christ? If one balks at that, there's a serious problem.
I once thought that unity meant that all would say the same thing until I realized that there are 12,tribes that made up Israel, and all different.
Just watch out for Dan.
D
Guess what! This will be hard to believe, but OSAS isn't a Calvinist thought. It is a twisting of Calvinist thought way back when by folks who don't like Calvinism.
So, don't blame OSAS on us.
Now, can't say I totally get what is and isn't Calvinist, and, frankly, I stink at Calvinism, because I'm too lazy to take time to figure out all the beliefs of what I'm supposed to believe just because I'm a Calvinist, so don't count me on the authority of what Calvinists believe, but here is my belief on OSAS.
I kind of do believe that, but one really important aspect is missing from that assumption. It is assumed that everyone who thinks they are permanently saved are saved in the first place. Not necessarily. Some were growing on rocky soil.
So, my belief is IF you are saved, it is permanent. The bigger question is, "Are you truly saved?" And that one takes a long time to answer.
If you don't get that part, don't worry about it. But please understand OSAS isn't Calvinism. It's anger toward Calvinists.
Kind of like a pro-abortion person saying, "You don't have say over my body."
That's a strawman argument to avoid the real issue! Assuming you are pro-life, doesn't it just bug you to death when people say you believe such-and-such, just because you're pro-life? And what they say you believe has nothing to do with what you really believe, and has absolutely nothing to do with the abortion debate?
Yeah, same feeling Calvinists have when people assume what we believe from false information. And I'm not saying you're the one giving the false info. But you are believing it, just because someone told you that. It's just not true. Partly true, but not the whole story.
So, don't blame OSAS on us.
Now, can't say I totally get what is and isn't Calvinist, and, frankly, I stink at Calvinism, because I'm too lazy to take time to figure out all the beliefs of what I'm supposed to believe just because I'm a Calvinist, so don't count me on the authority of what Calvinists believe, but here is my belief on OSAS.
I kind of do believe that, but one really important aspect is missing from that assumption. It is assumed that everyone who thinks they are permanently saved are saved in the first place. Not necessarily. Some were growing on rocky soil.
So, my belief is IF you are saved, it is permanent. The bigger question is, "Are you truly saved?" And that one takes a long time to answer.
If you don't get that part, don't worry about it. But please understand OSAS isn't Calvinism. It's anger toward Calvinists.
Kind of like a pro-abortion person saying, "You don't have say over my body."
That's a strawman argument to avoid the real issue! Assuming you are pro-life, doesn't it just bug you to death when people say you believe such-and-such, just because you're pro-life? And what they say you believe has nothing to do with what you really believe, and has absolutely nothing to do with the abortion debate?
Yeah, same feeling Calvinists have when people assume what we believe from false information. And I'm not saying you're the one giving the false info. But you are believing it, just because someone told you that. It's just not true. Partly true, but not the whole story.
It cannot be that sinners are first regenerated and then believe and repent, because that is neither what is taught in Scripture nor what is observed when sinners are saved.
1. First of all regeneration is a SUPERNATURAL EVENT which requires that the Holy Spirit has entered that person and given him a new heart and a new spirit. This is the meaning of being born form above and being born of the Spirit.
2. The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit is given as a gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. The Bible is also very clear that receiving the Holy Spirit is accompanied by receiving the gift of eternal life.
4. The Bible is also very clear that it is only by believing on the Lord that sinners are saved.
The order of salvation is clearly seen in Acts chapter 2:22-41:
THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it....
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear....
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
SINNERS WERE CONVICTED AND CONVINCED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
SINNERS WERE TO REPENT AFTER WHICH THEY WOULD RECEIVE (1) REMISSION OF SINS AND (2) THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
THOSE WHO BELIEVED WERE IMMEDIATELY BAPTIZED
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
A. What we see here is that repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ must PRECEDE receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
B. Unless the Holy Spirit enters the soul and spirit of the sinner, there can be no regeneration (Tit 3:4-7):
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
C. Only those who are regenerated are saved.
1. First of all regeneration is a SUPERNATURAL EVENT which requires that the Holy Spirit has entered that person and given him a new heart and a new spirit. This is the meaning of being born form above and being born of the Spirit.
2. The Bible is very clear that the Holy Spirit is given as a gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. The Bible is also very clear that receiving the Holy Spirit is accompanied by receiving the gift of eternal life.
4. The Bible is also very clear that it is only by believing on the Lord that sinners are saved.
The order of salvation is clearly seen in Acts chapter 2:22-41:
THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it....
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear....
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
SINNERS WERE CONVICTED AND CONVINCED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
SINNERS WERE TO REPENT AFTER WHICH THEY WOULD RECEIVE (1) REMISSION OF SINS AND (2) THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
THOSE WHO BELIEVED WERE IMMEDIATELY BAPTIZED
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
A. What we see here is that repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ must PRECEDE receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
B. Unless the Holy Spirit enters the soul and spirit of the sinner, there can be no regeneration (Tit 3:4-7):
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
C. Only those who are regenerated are saved.
D
Hey, kind of glad you didn't say that. I am a fainter, and I've hated fainting every time I've fainted, so I'm glad I don't have to faint. lol
On the other hand, that also means you did not answer PennEd's question, after you understood what he meant by faith.
I'm with Ed. I really would like to hear from someone who thinks some of their own faith came into the action of salvation explain why God gives faith if we already had it.
And, you don't have to answer that. But I would love you to go back and answer Ed's question straight up. You kind of lost the question in the time it took him to define which faith. Not a put down, I know most people don't hang out on a thread waiting around for each other to answer.
On the other hand, that also means you did not answer PennEd's question, after you understood what he meant by faith.
I'm with Ed. I really would like to hear from someone who thinks some of their own faith came into the action of salvation explain why God gives faith if we already had it.
And, you don't have to answer that. But I would love you to go back and answer Ed's question straight up. You kind of lost the question in the time it took him to define which faith. Not a put down, I know most people don't hang out on a thread waiting around for each other to answer.