Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[Stunnedbygrace]

He is not saying it's Gods repentance,
2 Tim 2:24-25
24 And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25 He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
He grants us our repentance from what I read here as well,
Acts 5:31
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

I think this one clearly implies it was the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

I agree with so much of what you're saying, but on this matter I truly believe that my repentance was 100% a gift of God to me.



Again I agree with so much of what you are saying, I really think the difference is more a matter of perspective than our "beliefs", but in this matter of repentance I do feel it is pretty clear God is the source of that, without Him we couldn't "get there". However I also believe we live in time/space and from our perspective it seems we choose, or exercise some part in coming to Him, but I think it's also clear that we do NOTHING in regard to receiving salvation at all, including repentance. That's how I see it anyway, but I believe God is absolutely sovereign over EVERYTHING, which I'm sure we all will agree with, but it helps to look up the definition of sovereign. Do you truly believe God is sovereign over EVERYTHING, even what you can't understand?

You guys are just blowing me away tonight with these posts!

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Dude you may want to have a look at some of the other chapters in Romans before you continue calling God evil.

Here for example:

Romans 11:30-32

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.



God is brilliant. Man is vain.

That doesn't say God wills for anyone to disobey Him. Here, this is a better translation for you:

God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.
Romans 11:32 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/rom.11.32.GW

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Tenet, anyone?

You guys are making me lose it
I hear that Calvin guy is a slumlord. His poor tenants!

 

[posthuman]

That doesn't say God wills for anyone to disobey Him. Here, this is a better translation for you:

God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.
Romans 11:32 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/rom.11.32.GW

Funny I don't particularly like the NLT at all but I had noticed how you quote it very often. Not this time however. Probably because it says this:

New Living Translation
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Perhaps you can show us how the Greek reveals the truth of the statement? Or maybe if you look at the Greek you'll see how wrong you are, and be blessed with a fuller understanding of the Lord and His ways. Why don't you look into that now, and let us know? Surely this would be wiser than picking a random translation solely on the basis that it leans towards your own private interpretation, don't you agree? Seeing that GW is not at all literal here.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)​

how do you have faith in something you consider foolish, cannot understand and cannot possibly discern?
this is the type of conundrum which leads to the conclusion that faith cannot exist apart from a regeneration. "while we were dead He hat quickened us" -- iirc it goes under the umbrella of "total depravity" but you know, basically everything i know about Calvin i read in these forums, specifically in threads written by people trashing Calvin. possible i'm misrepresenting.

what's the alternative?

a dead, blind, deaf man whose heart is utterly hostile to the Spirit comes to faith in the things his own soul hates, and afterwards comes to life, having only later his ears and eyes opened to see the thing he has faith in?
((yeah, i can probably phrase it to sound even more absurd. proofs are formed at extrema))


are these the only two possible views?

Glad someone quoted this one because I missed it.
Very good!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I shall applaud you

As we plod the road to happy destiny...

I prefer the way the first guy said it, even though he was made fun of.

After all, ten ants aren't as scary as ten ET's.

 

[posthuman]

Galatians 3:22

But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Was the Author of the scriptures which bound up all under sin evil to do so?

 

[Magenta]

Found in your favourite chapter of Romans is a little saying that goes like this:

"Who are you, oh man, to answer back to God?"

That's the Apostles reply to the objection, how can He judge us then, for who van resist His will?

((just FYI))

Isaiah 1:16-20

Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
[SUP]
19[/SUP]If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.​

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

She's not attacking you. She's actually doing the bit you didn't actually do in the post of yours she quoted.

Just so happens that when a person actually does that bit, you turn out to be mistaken in what you've said. Salvation, grace and faith are inextricably interwoven and are all Gods handiwork - as Angela showed us, the Greek reveals that in its grammar.

A rope of three cords is not easily broken...
Salvation, grace and faith, inextricably woven...

 

[Magenta]

Dude you may want to have a look at some of the other chapters in Romans before you continue calling God evil.

Here for example:

Romans 11:30-32

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

God is brilliant. Man is vain.

Is this universalism, then?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They have a special cannon

I can pick out SG and p4, but who's that other guy??
Wait a sec...is that Lynn wearing pants..??!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I notice you contradicted yourself... and Jesus.

I actually understood him. Not holding him to strict letter, but more his intent/thought that blind men need to be given sight before they can see.

 

[posthuman]

I can pick out SG and p4, but who's that other guy??
Wait a sec...is that Lynn wearing pants..??!

Pants? Probably it's Melita or SeoulSearch.

 

[posthuman]

Is this universalism, then?

More like inescapable cause for humility before God, i think.

If a person approached this text and was already universalist, they could read it as agreeing with their view, but i don't think that from this universalism is any kind of necessary conclusion.

 

[posthuman]

More like inescapable cause for humility before God, i think.

If a person approached this text and was already universalist, they could read it as agreeing with their view, but i don't think that from this universalism is any kind of necessary conclusion.

For example a wicked person is granted to gather riches and power, receiving treasure on earth. That is God showing mercy to them in patience and forbearance, even giving them the evil desires of their heart. But it doesn't mean they are spared from judgement at the time He appoints

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

A Satanic God who wills that men disobey him is brilliant? Go figure.

He doesn't will that men disobey Him! Look at the centuries of futility from the disobedience/lack of trust of one man! God told him what would happen - he would die. He made Adam and eve to bring forth of their own kind, so when they died they could only bring forth dead children. Is that His fault???

And then because of that one mans disobedience of trust, death spread to all, but He is so merciful and just that if one man could subject all of us to such abject misery and futility by his disobedience of faith then He saw it as just that one other man could bring us life by His obedience of faith.

That is not cause to accuse God but to adore Him!

 

[garee]

The Holy Spirit does not generate faith apart from the Gospel (which is the Word of God). So saving faith is generated when the Gospel is preached in the power of the Spirit, and that is when the Gospel itself becomes "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION".

Of course they would know. But that is NOT the issue. The issue is whether God the Holy Spirit enters into the heart (soul and spirit) of a person and regenerates him BEFORE he repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

To believe that is to believe an absurdity, and also turn the Bible teaching on regeneration on its head.

The correct order in Scripture is:
HEAR THE GOSPEL
BE CONVICTED AND CONVINCED
REPENT AND BELIEVE
RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS AND THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
BE REGENERATED BY THE SPIRIT SUPERNATURALLY AND BE SAVED

Christ does all the work of salvation or he does nothing. Christ must do the first works of giving us His hearing of His faith or power so we can believe. We as new creatures have that power in us but it is not of us.

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Dead men have no power to believe .Unless his word first turns us towards him no one can seek after him in order to find His understanding . Repentance is a work of God turning us.

The correct order in Scripture is:
God gives us ears to hear the gospel.That hearing of his faith that works in us it convinces us he is the truth and the way. Then we can believe and repent (comfort ourselves) having passed from death to life we are giving the understanding if he has begun the good work he will finish it. .

 

[Nehemiah6]

You say he saved you because of something in you and because you did something, and that's a sad fact, and a false gospel.

You will have a hard time finding this nonsense in any of my posts. The problem is that you are simply unable to deal with the Scriptures which demolish TULIP. So you turn around and make such comments. The false Gospel is the Gospel according to TULIP.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Dead men have no power to believe.

Let's leave the dead men in their graves and focus on the living ones who were saved. Kindly go to my post which shows the order of salvation according to Acts 2:22-41 and prove from Scripture that that is incorrect. Otherwise there is no point in chanting these Calvinistic mantras.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have so enjoyed reading these posts from after I left earlier today that I am way past bedtime! Thank you guys for all this you worked on today. What riches we have in Him! Lights out here.