Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
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Eph 1 [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Make sure you are honest in the reading of these verses. The context of these verse are found in verse 3 in which you left out. Let's read:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
You see, the context are the spiritual blessings that God has given in Christ. The very next word in verse 4 is according...you see, what God has given those in Him, in Christ is in accordance to what God had chosen to give before the foundation of the world to those who would be found in Christ. It's all about the heavenly blessings that are found in Christ. It does not say, as Calvinists like to read, we were chosen to be in him before the foundation of the world. No sir.
Verse 5, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...who has God predestinated? Us, those who are in Christ. What has God predestinated us for? The adoption, which is the redemption of our bodies, Romans 8:23.
You see, before the foundation of the world, Jesus Christ was chosen to be the means by which God would bestow heavenly blessings upon. How can man take part of these heavenly blessings? You've got to get in Christ through the gospel. Once in Christ, you are predestined for these blessings which includes the adoption. They are future blessings for the believer who is in Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
You see, the context are the spiritual blessings that God has given in Christ. The very next word in verse 4 is according...you see, what God has given those in Him, in Christ is in accordance to what God had chosen to give before the foundation of the world to those who would be found in Christ. It's all about the heavenly blessings that are found in Christ. It does not say, as Calvinists like to read, we were chosen to be in him before the foundation of the world. No sir.
Verse 5, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,...who has God predestinated? Us, those who are in Christ. What has God predestinated us for? The adoption, which is the redemption of our bodies, Romans 8:23.
You see, before the foundation of the world, Jesus Christ was chosen to be the means by which God would bestow heavenly blessings upon. How can man take part of these heavenly blessings? You've got to get in Christ through the gospel. Once in Christ, you are predestined for these blessings which includes the adoption. They are future blessings for the believer who is in Christ.
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You just took words and totally changed the meaning.
It says God elected us from before hte foundation of the world. No way to twist this than to mean ANYTHING other than what it says,
what he said in vs 3 does not change that fact, Vs three is a fact, God did bless us with all spiritual blessings.
Vs 4 and on is God explaining when and how those things occured.
1. He chose us before the word was created that we would be (future) holy and without blame before Him in love,
2. He predestined (predetermined that we would be) us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
The election and predestination was done before the foundation, The end result is accomplished at the point of vs 13 - 14 (when we hear the word and have faith the word)
vs 11 says in him we have had all these things fulfilled. Yet these things were predetermined (predestined),
ps, it does not say Jesus was predestined or elected, it says WE WERE.
It says God elected us from before hte foundation of the world. No way to twist this than to mean ANYTHING other than what it says,
what he said in vs 3 does not change that fact, Vs three is a fact, God did bless us with all spiritual blessings.
Vs 4 and on is God explaining when and how those things occured.
1. He chose us before the word was created that we would be (future) holy and without blame before Him in love,
2. He predestined (predetermined that we would be) us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
The election and predestination was done before the foundation, The end result is accomplished at the point of vs 13 - 14 (when we hear the word and have faith the word)
vs 11 says in him we have had all these things fulfilled. Yet these things were predetermined (predestined),
ps, it does not say Jesus was predestined or elected, it says WE WERE.
God destroyed the wicked throughout the OT. Nineveh was wicked.
Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
God had every intention of destroying Nineveh because of their wickedness. I'm not willing to add to the word of God to fit a theology. I choose to change my theology to fit the word of God.Did God tell Soddom and Gomorrah, if you don't repent I'm going to destroy you?
Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
God had every intention of destroying Nineveh because of their wickedness. I'm not willing to add to the word of God to fit a theology. I choose to change my theology to fit the word of God.Did God tell Soddom and Gomorrah, if you don't repent I'm going to destroy you?
Again, the context is not us. The context is the heavenly blessings in him, in Christ. The heavenly blessings are according as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. It does not say that He chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world. That switches the context to us and not the heavenly blessing in Christ. And by the way, Jesus Christ is thine elect, Isaiah 42.
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Wow. Really? Again, Where do you come up with this stuff?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
The context us US, How many more timed does paul have to say us before you will see it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
The context us US, How many more timed does paul have to say us before you will see it.
That's exactly how it happened with me, in that order. I heard (in my case I read), then I suddenly could see it was true so I believed, then I received the Spirit a few days later.
I will admit I may have received the Spirit the exact moment I believed. But I was not aware of that happening until some days later. I perceived Him in my senses not until a few days later in that way so many men have described variously as something warm being poured over your head and radiating out over the rest of your body, or waves washing over you, or the hair on your flesh standing up in goosebumps as the man in Job described it. It was so wonderful to my senses that I was distraught the first few times He disappeared to my senses until I understood I was being weaned from the baser way of my senses to a more mature and higher way of communing with Him.
I will admit I may have received the Spirit the exact moment I believed. But I was not aware of that happening until some days later. I perceived Him in my senses not until a few days later in that way so many men have described variously as something warm being poured over your head and radiating out over the rest of your body, or waves washing over you, or the hair on your flesh standing up in goosebumps as the man in Job described it. It was so wonderful to my senses that I was distraught the first few times He disappeared to my senses until I understood I was being weaned from the baser way of my senses to a more mature and higher way of communing with Him.
OK.... has (past tense ) blessed the new creation by a work of His faith (not seen) as the lamb slain from the foundation. Not will as future, as in will chose after the outward demonstration of flesh, which Christ said profits for nothing.The unseen Spirit is the media by which we are saved. His word is spirit and life .
Corrupted flesh and blood could never enter the kingdom of God.
From when? Before the foundation of the world ,Not from the outward demonstration of that finished work he finished it was finished from the foundation. On the seventh day he rested from all the work. In regard to that kind of finished. Christ who is not man as us said of his temporal flesh it profits for nothing. The demonstration was a shadow of the finished work of redemption
Calvinists have a understanding what before the foundation of the world means. It does not mean from the outward demonstration used as a shadow.
Yes before the foundation of. The context are the spiritual blessings that God has given in Christ. The very next word in verse 4 is according...you see, what God has given not will give those in Him, in Christ is in accordance to what God had chosen not will chose to give before the foundation of the world to those who would be found in Christ slain from the foundation .
Corrupted flesh and blood could never enter the kingdom of God.
From when? Before the foundation of the world ,Not from the outward demonstration of that finished work he finished it was finished from the foundation. On the seventh day he rested from all the work. In regard to that kind of finished. Christ who is not man as us said of his temporal flesh it profits for nothing. The demonstration was a shadow of the finished work of redemption
Calvinists have a understanding what before the foundation of the world means. It does not mean from the outward demonstration used as a shadow.
Yes before the foundation of. The context are the spiritual blessings that God has given in Christ. The very next word in verse 4 is according...you see, what God has given not will give those in Him, in Christ is in accordance to what God had chosen not will chose to give before the foundation of the world to those who would be found in Christ slain from the foundation .
I agree. We should stop talking. I do not want you to feel I am mocking you. If you feel you are talking with a dishonest person, the best thing is to not speak with them if its at all possible. I personally would avoid conversation with a mocking and dishonest person, so I think you are wise in this. I will honor your wish. Peace to you!