Can a Christian Become Lost, and Not Go to Heaven? OSAS?

[elf3]

You need to take a long sabbatical ... and read the Bible.

Show me one place whee God changed His mind. Every place you show me will be man changing toward God and not God changing toward man. To think that we can change God in any way shape or form means that God is no longer sovereign and we are now the sovereign ones.

 

[elf3]

Both sides agree that Jesus didn't just die, that people really can be saved. The difference is one side believes it is possible to lose that salvation, and the other side believes it is impossible to lose that salvation. And I'm not arguing, just discussing it, and sharing scriptures to consider. I have no negative feelings toward anyone here. Discussing scriptures is what this site is for.

And how do we come to know truth? By allowing the Holy Spirit to be our understanding and not by our own understanding.

I also noticed that you have made two forums discussing the exact same thing. So why make two forums instead of one?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Can a Christian Become Lost, and Not Go to Heaven if they die in that lost state?

'Once saved always saved' seems to be a big, no a huge, topic on this site. Even other topic titles end up in this discussion. So I wanted to really dig deep instead of just posting a couple scriptures, to see what the bible says about it once and for all...


Some say once you become a Christian, you never lose your salvation. Is this true according to the scriptures?


God is the author of Scripture, and we can believe the Bible because God was behind the writing of every verse, every chapter, and every book. We can trust it to give us the truth that God wanted us to know, truth that is sufficient to lead us to eternal life.


The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" suggests the Christian, once truly saved, can never do anything to lose his (or her) salvation and be finally lost in hell. This belief says that Christians have an unconditional security in Christ. They suggest that any person who appears to be a Christian and then falls away was never truly converted in the first place. They say that Christians do sin; but when they sin, they are punished for it in this life and forfeit privileges in heaven, but not entrance into heaven.


But is heaven conditional? And what is a condition? A conditional statement is usually introduced by words such as “if” or “unless.” When Jesus said in Luke 13:3 that unless you repent, you will perish, we understand repentance is a condition to keep from being lost. When the Bible says, “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” That’s from 1 John 1, verses 6 and 7. You see, there are conditions.


2 Peter chapter 2, verses 20 to 22 says, “For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘A Dog Returns To Its Own Vomit,’ and, ‘A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.’ ” That’s a reading from God’s Holy Word.


The doctrine of once saved, always saved is built upon the belief that God’s grace is unconditional. Some say once grace is given, a Christian cannot lose it. But the doctrine of unconditional security ignores the conditional, qualifying statements in Scripture about whom the grace of God saves. Several passages show that our salvation is conditional. We must remain faithful to God.


For instance, the Lord Jesus said in John 8 and verse 51, “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” But what happens if a person stops keeping God’s Word? The Lord said in John 15, verses 1 to 2, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.” Now, when a branch in Christ no longer bears fruit, it’s taken away. And then John 15, verse 6 says, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” Well, this is the end of a Christian who will not bear fruit.


Moreover, how Christians live morally matters. Now, a Christian who turns to fleshly passions can lose his soul, but one who puts away sin can live with God. Romans 8, verses 12 to 13 says, “So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you are living according to the flesh, (that is ‘you brethren’) you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Morality is a condition of our salvation.


The Lord expects His people to hold firmly to their faith. You see, our salvation depends on it. First Corinthians 15, verses 1 and 2 says, “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which also you stand, and by which you are saved, IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.” Now, if they don’t hold firmly to their faith, they will have believed in vain and they could lose their salvation.


Colossians 1, verses 21 to 23 says, “And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, (that is before you became Christians) you were engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you (that is you have become a Christian) in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless beyond reproach—IF indeed you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and STEADFAST, and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the gospel which you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.” You see, holding firmly to the gospel is a condition of our salvation.


Remaining active in the church, especially in our attendance, is also a condition of our salvation. In Hebrews 10 and verse 25, the inspired writer noted that some Christians had forsaken assembling with the church. In response to this, he said in verses 26 to 27, “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.” Yes, a Christian who quits on God can lose the blessing of eternal life. God expects us to stay involved in church as long as we’re able.
The second epistle of Peter was written to Christians urging them to remain faithful and not to fall away to immorality or false teaching.


Second Peter 2, verses 20 and 21 says, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, (now these people are Christians) and they are again entangled in these things and they are overcome, that the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them” Now, this clear Scripture shows that if a Christian gets overcome by sin, he can find himself worse off than before he became a Christian. It would have been better if he had never known the way of the Lord.
First John 1, verses 6 to 7, the Bible says, “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”


Now, our freedom from sin is conditional on whether we follow the Lord or follow the world. Now, I’ve presented several conditions that God has placed on our salvation. If there were only one Scriptural condition on this list that would be enough to show that our salvation is conditional.


Now, in addition, the Scriptures often warn Christians to remain faithful and committed to the Lord. For instance, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9, verses 24 to 27, “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? You run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore (Paul says) I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and I make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.” Paul knew that he could lose his crown of life if he didn’t discipline himself and stay free from sin.


In Galatians chapter 5, verses 19 to 21 Paul warned the Galatian Christians about the deeds of the flesh. And he said, “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, (who, ‘you Christians’) just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Now, why would Paul forewarn Christians about these sins keeping them out of heaven, if Christians couldn’t lose their salvation?


Our faith and commitment to Christ is a lifetime effort. The Lord Jesus said in John 5, verse 24 that, “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” Now, this passage says the believer possesses eternal life but it doesn’t say anything about the person who stops believing or stops hearing the word. John 8:51 says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death.” But what about the person who quits keeping the Word? Well, John 3 and verse 36 says that, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." You see, one has eternal life as long as he believes and obeys. But if he stops believing or obeying, he can lose that life.


Can a person stop believing? Well, some think not, but we have an example in Scripture of Israel coming out of Egypt. Study Psalm 106 very closely. Psalm 106, verse 12 says, “Then they believed His word; They sang His praise.” But verse 13 says, “They quickly forgot His works.” By the time you get to verse 21 the Bible says, “They forgot God their Savior.” And Psalm 106, verses 24 to 25 says, “Then they despised the pleasant land; They did not believe in His word, But grumbled in their tents; They did not listen to the voice of the LORD.” Can people stop believing? Well, the Israelites did.


In the parable of the sower, Jesus described different kinds of soil: the soil beside the road, the rocky soil, the thorny soil, and then there’s the good soil. Well, these types of soil actually describe people’s hearts. Jesus tells how the Word of God or the seed is planted in the thorny soil and then what happens. The Lord said in Luke 8 and verse 13, “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.” You see, they stopped believing. Sadly, we’ve all known people like this.


Paul predicted in 1Timothy 4 and verse 1, “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” When you stop listening to the Lord and you will pay attention to others, the point comes when you stop believing. You see, to believe in the Lord Jesus means you believe what He teaches. How can you say you believe the Lord if you will not accept the things that He teaches?


Now consider Hebrews 3, verses 12 to 14, now this was written to brothers in Christ. The Bible says, “Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that FALLS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ‘Today,’ so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For if we become partakers of Christ, (we have become partakers of Christ, rather) IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm UNTIL the end.” You see, to fall away is to abandon the Lord willfully. These brothers, they had been deceived by sin and then hardened by that sin and they lost their faith. Again, we’re partakers of Christ only if we hold firm our faith to the end.


Now, at this point someone says, “ Don’t you know that no one can snatch us out of the Lord’s hand? Don’t you know that we can never be separated from God’s love?” Yes, I well know those two precious promises; the first found in John 10, verse 27 to 29; and the second in Romans 8, verses 35 to 39. They say that no one and nothing can separate us from God. These verses, however, don’t take into account what happens to a person who decides to separate himself from God. Jude 21 advises us to "keep yourselves in the love of God”; and John 15, verses 9 to 10 teaches that we must abide in his love. Now, no one else can separate us from God, but we can decide to leave the Lord. Christians can choose to fall away! We can choose to leave God. Free will is for everyone, God will not force us to come to Him, or to stay with Him.


Another person objects, “Well, if a Christian falls away, he was never truly converted in the first place.” Are you sure? You’ve never changed your mind? The Bible says in Hebrews 6, verses 4 to 6, “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame.”


Now, it’s clear these people were once Christians. They were enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted of the experience, (they have experienced rather) the Word of God and the powers of the age to come. You couldn’t have these spiritual blessings outside of Christ. You can’t fall away from something unless you were first part of it. These Christians fell away by willfully rejecting Jesus Christ. Others could not get them to repent, because they didn’t want to repent. To fall away is a willful choice to abandon the faith.


In a different situation the book of Galatians speaks of Christians who followed a different gospel than Paul preached by binding circumcision and the Law on Gentile Christians. Paul said in Galatians 5 and verse 4, “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Here are people under the grace of God, but they fell away from it and severed themselves from Christ. To be severed implies that they first belonged to Him. A Christian can fall from grace; and I pray, my friend, that you never do.


Thank God for a second law of pardon for Christians who sin. You know, even when a Christian strays from the truth, God has a way for him to return to salvation. Like the prodigal son, he can come home to God. My friend, nothing, nothing is worth losing your soul over.


When Simon the Sorcerer in Acts chapter 8 offered money to buy the apostles’ gift, Peter rebuked him for his sin. In Acts 8, verses 21 to 24 Peter said, “You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” Now, God expects Christians to repent of their sins and to ask for forgiveness, if they wish to be pardoned.


God expects Christians to repent of their sins and to ask for forgiveness, if they wish to be pardoned. The Bible says in 1 John 1, verse 9 that, “IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” God is faithful to His people. He will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, if...if...we confess our sins, repent of them, and ask for his forgiveness. God offers pardon, but there are conditions to our forgiveness. Meeting conditions won’t earn you salvation; but if you fail to meet them, you can’t enjoy the grace and blessing of God.

Amen, Kaycie.

Don't let anybody ever dupe you into believing the potentially damnable heresy of "once saved, always saved".

 

[dcontroversal]

The bible says we are saved by faith. If we are saved by OUR faith and not God's love or faith then to say we can't backslide is to say we cannot change our mind. It's ridiculous to believe OSAS even if you could prove it with scripture. We are not robots but given a choice. If we could never backslide then why does the majority of the bible tell us how to live for the lord so we are not under the dominion of sin. If one can't backslide then why do they still face temptation to sin. Wouldn't Satan understand that he has already lost that soul. Even if OSAS teachers are correct (and I hope they are) it is a very dangerous belief system.

I suggest you study Galatians as it teaches as well as Ephesians that we are saved, justified and eternally sealed by the perfect FAITH OF CHRIST..emphasis upon the word OF!

 

[elf3]

God is God alone! Final done end of story only God is Sovereign. As someone once wrote.."we will allow God to be Sovereign except upon His throne".

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Notice how they avoid all of the scriptures already presented...as if they'll somehow go away.

 

[elf3]

OK God revolves all around you. Nice have fun controlling God.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

What power in heaven or earth can separate us from the love of God?

The same Paul who asked that question of the Romans in Romans 8:35-39 continued on to say to these very same Romans:

Romans chapter 8

[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

"Be not highminded"?

"Fear"?

"Take heed"?

"If"?

Yep...

 

[kennethcadwell]

Let's just take a look at Galatians;


Galatians 1:2
And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

[h=1]Galatians 1:6-7
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.[/h]Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

OK God revolves all around you. Nice have fun controlling God.

Have you no scriptural argument?

I mean, your very salvation could hinge upon properly answering this question, couldn't it?

Btw, in case you haven't heard, God's relationship with His people is likened to a TWO PARTY COVENANT ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE.

You really should go reread your Bible...assuming that you've even read it in the first place.

 

[elf3]

Have you no scriptural argument?

I mean, your very salvation could hinge upon properly answering this question, couldn't it?

Btw, in case you haven't heard, God's relationship with His people is likened to a TWO PARTY COVENANT ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE.

You really should go reread your Bible...assuming that you've even read it in the first place.

Haha that is the most ignorant response I have ever read "assuming that you've even read it in the first place."

Wow!! And you call yourself a Christian? If you actually take offense to my post then you best rethink your belief.

 

[elf3]

Wanna know my Biblical response? Read 2 Tim 2:19

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Haha that is the most ignorant response I have ever read "assuming that you've even read it in the first place."

Wow!! And you call yourself a Christian? If you actually take offense to my post then you best rethink your belief.

What's "ignorant" about it?

I've been a Christian for a little over 26 years now and I've personally asked multitudes of professing believers, face to face, if they've ever even read their Bible from cover to cover once and I've yet to meet one who has.

What "offense" were you talking about, btw?

Your errant beliefs are only a danger to yourself and others and no danger to me.

P.S.

Btw, speaking of "ignorance", you've apparently ignored THE FACT that God's covenant with His people is just that...A TWO PARTY COVENANT.

 

[dcontroversal]

What's "ignorant" about it?

I've been a Christian for a little over 26 years now and I've personally asked multitudes of professing believers, face to face, if they've ever even read their Bible from cover to cover once and I've yet to meet one who has.

What "offense" were you talking about, btw?

Your errant beliefs are only a danger to yourself and others and no danger to me.

No offence, but you can read it 1000 times and still be ignorant of the truth found therein as it takes actually being born again to be able to understand it (Corinthians) and not to mention that the devil can quote it, but is ignorant and blind to the truths found therein........So.....in all reality, asking if someone has read it can be a double edged sword.......Like one I have seen on here (BRAGGING) about reading it 80 times through.....and yet was still ignorant of basic truths........!

 

[JesusistheChrist]

No offence, but you can read it 1000 times and still be ignorant of the truth found therein as it takes actually being born again to be able to understand it (Corinthians) and not to mention that the devil can quote it, but is ignorant and blind to the truths found therein........So.....in all reality, asking if someone has read it can be a double edged sword.......Like one I have seen on here (BRAGGING) about reading it 80 times through.....and yet was still ignorant of basic truths........!

No offense taken. I agree with you that God's Word can only be properly understood via the help of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, and that we most certainly need to be born again. I also agree with you that the devil MISquotes (by taking it out of context) scripture, even as he did to Jesus, and that like Jesus we need to be able to respond to such MISquotes with the rightly divided Word of God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Wanna know my Biblical response? Read 2 Tim 2:19

I would have to say I like the fact you brought up 2 Timothy, because if any of us go and read 1st and 2nd Timothy. Then you would see how Apostle Paul is telling and warning the Apostle Timothy how he can become impure ( unclean ) do to sin again......Showing how future sins are not automatically covered...

 

[elf3]

I would have to say I like the fact you brought up 2 Timothy, because if any of us go and read 1st and 2nd Timothy. Then you would see how Apostle Paul is telling and warning the Apostle Timothy how he can become impure ( unclean ) do to sin again......Showing how future sins are not automatically covered...

The point it to understand from this is...if God already knows who is saved and who isn't saved and you don't bbelieve you might be saved but can lose your salvation then you might want to rethink your faith.

I am so confident in my salvation that I can say with both Paul and Moses that if I could give up my salvation in order that someone else be saved then Lord do it. I can also say by my faith in Christ that if for, say some reason, my name is not write in the book of life I know it is God's Will. Do you have that kind of faith that you would be willing to sacrifice your salvation for someone else?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Revelation 3:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Overcome. Overcome? What? How?
Revelation 3:2-3 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

[psychomom]

Btw, in case you haven't heard, God's relationship with His people is likened to a TWO PARTY COVENANT ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE.

ever heard of a suzerain treaty?

check out the way God covenanted with Abraham.

 

[elf3]

Because I know our God is Sovereign I would be willing to sacrifice my salvation for any one of you.