Can deity die?

Tintin · Dec 17, 2013

What happens on the New Heaven and the New Earth? Because we're given new bodies then. So we have body and soul/spirit. We're not just bodies and we're not just floating spirits/a consciousness (Eastern Mysticism), nor is there just a non-existence after we're dead (atheism).

God can destroy a person's soul but Satan did not create the idea of the immortal/eternal soul. God did.

LovePink · Dec 17, 2013

TaylorTG said:

Thanks for your input. Taylor there is more to my topics than just the title, lol. I understand that some people do not know the doctrine of hypostatic union and that is ok. I will share the short version with you, it means deity dies. Google it if you want, otherwise carry on

TaylorTG · Dec 17, 2013

LovePink said:

Thanks for your input. Taylor there is more to my topics than just the title, lol. I understand that some people do not know the doctrine of hypostatic union and that is ok. I will share the short version with you, it means deity dies. Google it if you want, otherwise carry on

Pardon my ignorance, mam.

Ariel82 · Dec 17, 2013

I would be one who has no clue to what you are referring to when you say "Hypostatic union"

It would be helpful if you clearly defined it than suggest people "google" it because it is defined differently depending on the site you look up.

For example I have yet to see it defined as "when diety dies"

however we have the catholic Encyclopedia that states:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hypostatic Union

or we could look at this blog:

What Is the Hypostatic Union? - Desiring God

So LovePink, what are you trying to teach?

that Jesus is NOT God and Man but something else?

Gjolll · Dec 17, 2013

Ariel82 said:

Before you accuse people, you should demonstrate the truth of what you're asserting as truth.

Jesus: "Father, Please fulfill my prayer"
Father: "Son, fulfill it yourself, since you're God too."

Makes zero sense, doesn't it?

Tintin · Dec 17, 2013

Hypostatic Union, as described in Ariel's post, is biblical Truth.

Gjolll · Dec 17, 2013

Tintin said:

Why did it take until the 5th century, when the church was hopelessly corrupt and rent with divisions, for the notion to be discovered? The Hypostatic union is a compromise between politicians robbed of the truth, not an apostolic production.

p_rehbein · Dec 17, 2013

............and yet another thread where the Jehovah's Witness deny the Deity of Christ........sigh..........

(well, they are rather incessant aren't they?)

Tintin · Dec 17, 2013

Gjolll said:

When Jesus came to earth he became human, while still remaining God. This Truth is foundational to the Christian faith. It's not a new development. It's been in the New Testament for close to two-thousand years.

oldhermit · Dec 17, 2013

Tintin said:

You are absolutely correct. It is completely irrelevant how those of antiquity understood scripture or the nature of God. Truth is found ONLY within the framework of the written text and nothing else should ever be given consideration. We can never truly understand God through anything learned within the framework of human experience. Human reason that is divorced from revelation can add nothing of value to the revealed text and can tell us nothing about God. Through scripture, God allows us to see, in a limited fashion, some things about his nature, his power, his personality, his presence, his wisdom and his involvement in human affairs. Any concept of God that can be regarded as uncompromised must come not from "Church fathers" but from God’s own revelation about Himself.

Gjolll · Dec 17, 2013

Tintin said:

It's not a truth, it's a non-sequitur, and complete garbage. Whilst on earth, Jesus only acknowledged the Father as God. He said he was "one with the Father." Only in that sense was he "God" but unfortunately the term "God" in the bible infers someone on the throne of God with the power of God. As it states in Hebrews 2;7, he was made "a little lower than the angels." Therefore he was not God.

Moreover he would not have been "like us in every respect" if he was God.

He was from God. Yes of course, but that does not mean he was God.

Moreover, you can't cite a single scripture to prove it.

You guys need to be much more honest about where your theology comes from. It comes from the Catholic Church. OK.

john832 · Dec 17, 2013

oldhermit said:

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And more than three days and four nights later, Christ said...

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So, where is paradise?

2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul shows us that paradise is the third heaven. Now, if this is the case, then the thief went to heaven (paradise) more than three days and four nights ahead of Christ, making the thief the firstborn among many brethren...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And if that is the case, then scripture can be broken. We know that is not true...

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

So did the thief go to the third heaven on the very day Christ was crucified and got there more than three days and four nights before Christ? Nope, the answer is in the punctuation...

The Transmission of the Greek New Testament

Papyri, Uncials, and Miniscules

(Some very good info here, but it is not germain to the discussion at hand)

All of the Greek New Testament originals were written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS with no spaces and probably no punctuation, and all of the earlier manuscripts are in this style, whether on parchment or papyrus. This is because the Greek alphabet did not have punctuation until at least the II century, and there were no minscule (lower case) letters until much later. The surviving manuscripts on papyrus are classed by themselves: papyri. The parchment manuscripts written in all capitals are called uncials, and those written later (IX century on) using upper and lower case letters are called miniscules. Various commonly written words were often abbreviated. This are mistakenly called nomina sacra, "sacred names," but it is not only special names and titled which were abbreviated this way.

The Transmission of the Greek New Testament

Here is a good example of why the KJV is not a direct letter for letter translation...

Punctuating the Bible

Written by Ben Shaw | Tuesday, November 1, 2011

Thus, for example, Ephesians 1:3-14 (one extended sentence in Greek) is divided into three sentences by the KJV, and up to fourteen or so sentences by some of the modern simple language translations. But this punctuation is a matter of editorial choice.

The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic (the Aramaic portions are as follows: Ezra 4:8-6:18; 7:11-26; Daniel 2:4-7:28; Jeremiah 10:11, and two words in Genesis 31:47). The New Testament was written in Greek.

The original Hebrew (and Aramaic) manuscripts were written without vowels and without punctuation. The fact that vowels were not written is not as problematic as it might seem, due to the character of the Hebrew language. In fact, most Modern Hebrew is also written without vowels. Vowels are inserted only when necessary to prevent possible misunderstandings.

Punctuating the Bible

The translators not only translated the text, but had to try to convey the meaning accurately. Some did, some not so much.

So, since we have gone from New York to Pittsburgh via Moscow, what is the short of it? The comma is simply in the wrong place in Luke 23:43.

A better translation would be...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I am telling you today, that you will be with me in paradise. Christ didn't mean that very day, He meant in the future or else Paul lied...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Christ is the firstfruit, then those who are Christ's at His coming...

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

john832 · Dec 17, 2013

Tintin said:

I would like to see some scripture for you foundational truth.

2Thewaters · Dec 17, 2013

God can never die.
He is love.

john832 · Dec 17, 2013

2Thewaters said:

And yet He, Himself, said...

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

But again, the Bible doesn't really mean what it says here, does it?

A lot of people believe in Christ, not nearly as many actually BELIEVE Him.

oldhermit · Dec 17, 2013

john832 said:

You really have too much material to address at one time so, I will only address the first part. We can perhaps look at the rest of it later.
First, where ever Jesus was going to be, the thief would be there with him. Secondly, three days later is not "Today." This is a time limiting statement that is very specific so, whatever this Paradise is, their connection with it was directly linked to the day of their death. Also, we know from Jn. 20:17 that there seems to be a distinction made between Paradise and the presence of the Father since Jesus goes to Paradise at his death yet three days later, he has still not ascended to the Father.

I am not so sure this is as much a matter of where as it is a state of existence although, I am certainly not suggesting that it is not in some way locative. The word παραδείσῳ only occurs twice. Once in Luke 23:43 and again in Rev. 2:7. The only other associative word is παράδεισον which occurs only in 2 Cor. 12:4. While the story Paul relays in 2Cor. 12 connects the individual of whom Paul is speaking with a direct revelation that does not seem to be associated with death, it is very clear that Jesus associates it with death in Luke 23 while Rev. 2:7 it is associated with garden imagery in connection with the tree of life. As far as this word goes in scripture, this is all we have to go on to understand things associated with this word.

The aspect with which we are concerned is its association with death since this is the topic of the thread. Since Jesus gives us no information about παραδείσῳ other than the fact that it was to be his destination immediately upon his death and that the thief would accompany him there. So perhaps what we need to examine are those texts that offer information about what happens to man in the experience of death; Perhaps the "parable" of the rich man and Lazzarus?

p_rehbein · Dec 17, 2013

john832 said:

John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 .) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 .) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 .) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 .) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 10:25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 .) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 .) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 .) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 .) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 .) I and my Father are one.

Luke 9:28) And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 .) And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 .) And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 .) Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 .) But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 .) And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 .) While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 .) And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 .) And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 .) The same was in the beginning with God.
3 .) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 .) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 .) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

john832 · Dec 17, 2013

p_rehbein said:

John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 .) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 .) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 .) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 .) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 .) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 10:25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 .) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 .) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 .) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 .) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 .) I and my Father are one.

Luke 9:28) And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 .) And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 .) And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 .) Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 .) But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 .) And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 .) While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 .) And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 .) And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 .) The same was in the beginning with God.
3 .) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 .) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 .) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Yes, but I don't see any scripture that plainly says Jesus did not really die for the sins of the world, He just shed His skin.

The Bible says He DIED for the sins of the world...

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

He died and was resurrected to life again, He did not just shed His skin.

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

oldhermit · Dec 17, 2013

john832 said:

John, you really seem to be confused about the whole concept of death as it is presented in sripture. Perhaps we need to start from the beginning.

p_rehbein · Dec 17, 2013

john832 said:

Ok, I'm not sure what you are arguing here..........of course His earthy body died........I don't dispute that.......however God the Son did not die, no more than our spiritual beings die when our earthy bodies die...........one of us is confused about what the other is arguing, and, given my O.T.D., it could well be me............sigh..........

He was speaking of His earthly/man form when He said........ I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore

His Deity did not die..............are we on the same page now?

Can deity die?

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