Can I change reality with my words?

[Angela53510]

Thanks for sharing your perspective Angela.

Would love to read your perspective on Matthew 8.

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I need my Bible study tools, and this is the first time I have been at my computer with access to them.

First, I have NEVER said that Jesus didn't heal on earth, and that he doesn't heal today. That is a straw man you keep propping up. What I object to, is the bad, out of context use of that verse. First, it must go with verse 16.

"When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17 This was to fulfillwhat was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:

“He took up our infirmities
and bore our diseases.”" Matt. 8:16-17

So, what is Matthew doing here? Is he giving the prophecy to us, in our day? Of course not! It says clearly that part of the reason Jesus healed, (besides his compassion) was to FULFILL the prophecy in Isaiah which Matthew quotes. Yes, Jesus certainly healed. The prophecy was fulfilled. Matthew certainly saw Isaiah 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but also as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not as a part of the atonement.

Matthew put these lines into his gospel, specifically so people (esp. Jews) would see this fulfillment of prophecy, and know Jesus was the promised Messiah. No, we are not part of fulfilling this prophecy. Only Jesus had the authority to heal. Because he was God, and even with his finite flesh, he had the power and authority of God.

Because we are completely finite, and our bodies have NOT been redeemed, we are not living in in glorified bodies, according to Paul:

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:22-23

So, we are not Jesus, not God, and we are not able to command healing. Plus, again the over-realized eschatology of Word Faith which would have every believer living in a glorified and perfect body from the minute of salvation, although there is no such promise. Instead, even Paul says WE EAGERLY AWAIT. Await what? The redemption of our bodies, when Jesus returns.

As Dr. Gordon Fee, a Pentecostal Biblical Greek scholar says:

"The Bible therefore, does not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. The 2 NT passages, 1 Peter 2:24 and Matt 8:16-17 are the crucial ones for the total 'Health' part of Word Faith. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing as a part of the atonement. (the basis of the demand: God has provided for it, therefore he must heal when asked) with all the texts on faith (since it is fully provided for by God, Word Faith people reason that it may be secured by the correct formula of faith.) Thus the emphasis in this movement is on 'raising people's faith'...And worse, there is a way of interpreting these texts that can make a mockery of the divine will. 'God promises us whatever we ask'. Fortunately, God does not grant everything we ask. For our asking is based on our own limited and finite knowledge, and all too often it is coloured by our self interest. A case in point is Hezekiah. Hezekiah had his prayer for healing answered,, and he was granted 15 more years of life. But, it was during those 15 years the evil Manasseh was born and ruled the land for 55 years, bringing down the nation of Judah in only a few generations" *

Healing is real. I don't deny that. But it is so childish and lacking Christian maturity to think there is a formula we can believe that gives us the right to claim everything Jesus had!

Please take a course in Hermeneutics from a good, Bible believing seminary. You could avoid so many pitfalls, including not clinging to the fact that Matt 8:17, is taken out of context- the people who it was written to, as well as the surrounding verses, when it is point blank obvious that we do not have any such rights to "claim" or "command" healing. You have been terribly deceived! You use the Scriptures incorrectly, and you claim you are a god, because only a god can command healing on demand. Plus, experience shows us over and over that God does NOT heal believers every time. And it is not because of sin, or a lack of faith on their part.


*Gordon Fee, The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel, pg 25-26.

 

[Guojing]

So, what is Matthew doing here? Is he giving the prophecy to us, in our day? Of course not! It says clearly that part of the reason Jesus healed, (besides his compassion) was to FULFILL the prophecy in Isaiah which Matthew quotes. Yes, Jesus certainly healed. The prophecy was fulfilled. Matthew certainly saw Isaiah 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but also as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not as a part of the atonement.

Matthew put these lines into his gospel, specifically so people (esp. Jews) would see this fulfillment of prophecy, and know Jesus was the promised Messiah. No, we are not part of fulfilling this prophecy. Only Jesus had the authority to heal. Because he was God, and even with his finite flesh, he had the power and authority of God.

When you claim that healing is not part of the atonement, that is interesting because when Isa 53 proclaim, "With his stripe we are healed", any ordinary reader would conclude that we are healed "because of the stripe".

Yet when was Jesus whipped? Only at the crucifixion. So to conclude that healing is not part of the finished work on the cross seems, to me, to be a belief that one choose to hold, an opinion that one choose to have.

So it always fascinates me why most of us have no issues in believing that salvation is part of the atonement, all of us are crystal clear that Jesus died on the cross to give us eternal life.

But Isa 53, with Matt 8, indicates to me that his finished work on the cross is more than just that. As I have mentioned elsewhere, if all he did was to grant us salvation, he just needed to shed his blood, like all the OT lambs that were being sacrificed.

But Jesus undergone something that none of those lambs did, he was actually whipped. Why did he have to be whipped? Isa 53 and Matt 8 explained to us, its also because physical healing is also part of the finished work.

Now, I will agree with you that it is true that we may not see the healing manifest in the physical world, but can we at least believe that it is God's will to heal us?

 

[InChristalone44]

I can change reality with my words, every time I go to a restaurant I just say what I want and I always get it

 

[Guojing]

Please take a course in Hermeneutics from a good, Bible believing seminary. You could avoid so many pitfalls, including not clinging to the fact that Matt 8:17, is taken out of context- the people who it was written to, as well as the surrounding verses, when it is point blank obvious that we do not have any such rights to "claim" or "command" healing. You have been terribly deceived! You use the Scriptures incorrectly, and you claim you are a god, because only a god can command healing on demand. Plus, experience shows us over and over that God does NOT heal believers every time. And it is not because of sin, or a lack of faith on their part.


*Gordon Fee, The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel, pg 25-26.

And I have to say Gordon Fee is an interesting author to quote from. It was another pastor I heard, who believe in replacement theology, that used Fee's book on the Gospel of the Kingdom, to argue that even Gentile Christians have the task of preaching this particular Gospel, that this Gospel of Kingdom is the relevant Gospel for now.

So when I read your point in bold, which seems to indicate you share a dispensationalist view, I smiled because even Gordon Fee himself does not appear to rightly divide the word into, what was written to the Jews, and what was written specifically to the Gentiles.

 

[Guojing]

The God who loves us with a pure heart, allows many things for good, including sickness and health.

I notice this previous point of yours and also would like to respond to this. When I first read this, I think it should be quite clear to you that, this belief of yours is not from the bible.

However I do understand why you end up believing in this, given your medical history. I can understand how frustrating it is to have trust God for healing, and in the end, not seeing your healing manifested after years and years of waiting.

For me at least, I try my very best to resist adopting the belief that God allows sickness for good. One way I use to resist this logically is this.

Under the covenant of the law, sickness and poverty are never seen as blessings, only as curses. (Deut 28)

All of us, after Jesus's atonement are under a "better" covenant, which is the covenant of grace.

If the grace covenant > law covenant, it does not make sense to think that if sickness is never a blessing in the law covenant, it now becomes a blessing in the grace covenant.

As I have also explained before, God does not use sickness to teach us anything, as much as he would never use sin to teach us anything, even though all things, even sin, work for the good of us.

 

[Angela53510]

And I have to say Gordon Fee is an interesting author to quote from. It was another pastor I heard, who believe in replacement theology, that used Fee's book on the Gospel of the Kingdom, to argue that even Gentile Christians have the task of preaching this particular Gospel, that this Gospel of Kingdom is the relevant Gospel for now.

So when I read your point in bold, which seems to indicate you share a dispensationalist view, I smiled because even Gordon Fee himself does not appear to rightly divide the word into, what was written to the Jews, and what was written specifically to the Gentiles.

You have totally misread me. "The people who it was written to" were 1st century Jews and Gentiles. I am as far from a Dispensationalist as possible. Even when I went to a Pentecostal denomination PAOC (affiliated with AoG) I never believed all that nonsense. And was branded a heretic for my eschatological beliefs by the statement of faith.

Who on earth did you think thosed people were? Context means first the people that the epistle or gospel was written to. Context only means incidentally, to us today, and in many cases not at all.

I have always believed that the Bible warned the Jews over and over in the OT, including taking both Israel and Judah captive. Then, after Jesus was born, lived, died and was resurrected, the promises or prophecies of the Messiah, came to an end, fulfilled in Jesus, except in a few rare cases. Jews are not part of the New Covenant (unless they are born again believers) and the Old Convenant is finished, over.

You REALLY ought to take a course on hermeneutics. You have no clue how to interpret Scripture.


By the way, I noticed you never commented on my simple and obvious commentary on Matt. 8. To say nothing of the fact, that you need to read exactly what was written in the book of Job. God not only allowed Job's illness, but he encouraged the devil to seek Job out! And gave the devil definitive instructions the limits on what he was able to do. First, Job was not allowed to be touched in his body. Then, God allowed the devil to touch his body just to not kill him. And those sores or boils, sound like a serious and debilitating staph infection. But, no, you have some alternate explanation for that entire book of the Bible. Also known as rationalizing.

Well, since you are not only twisting the Bible to contort it into your special heresy, but now twisting and reading into my words what I did not say, to say nothing of never commenting on my posts and exegesis of every Scripture you posted, because you can't, there is nothing you can say that has not been disproved, by merely using the fundamental rules of Biblical interpretation. I am out of this discussion.

 

[Blik]

I've gotten confused reading through the comments. I pointed that out yesterday.

I wanted to know if by declaring something, it would happen in reality.

Yes that was my simple question.

A "yes" or "no" followed by a scripture to back up the yes or no would have sufficed. Its that simple really.

The answer is yes if what we ask is within God's will and works with His kingdom. The answer is no is what we ask is outside the will of the Lord.

For proof scripture, the Lord's Prayer would be one proof. We ask "thy will be done".

 

[CherieR]

========================================================
PS. 75:7.
But God is The Judge: He puts down one, and sets up another.

1JOHN 4:17.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

ROMANS 14:10.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

ISA 1:17.
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

1COR. 1-2-3.
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you,
are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1PETER 4:15-16-17-18-19.
But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to Him
in well doing, as unto A Faithful Creator.

I understand God is judge but to be judgemental is different. Judgemental means someone who is negative, critical of others, and it can describe someone who puts others down but are full of pride. A judgemental person sees the faults of others but walks around with an inflated ego. God is not negative nor is he prideful , but rather he is loving. Yes, God does pronounce judgement on the wicked. He is holy and righteous and what he does is just. At the same time God desires that none should perish but all come to repentance and faith in Christ.

 

[oldethennew]

when you belong to the true body of Jesus Christ, it is definitely our 'job' to 'JUDGE' the brethren,
and 'correct, them when they are in error'...
if you belong to the Body of Christ, then Holy Judgment is one of our many jobs', and one that is not pleasing,
but so very necessary...

 

[Guojing]

By the way, I noticed you never commented on my simple and obvious commentary on Matt. 8. To say nothing of the fact, that you need to read exactly what was written in the book of Job. God not only allowed Job's illness, but he encouraged the devil to seek Job out! And gave the devil definitive instructions the limits on what he was able to do. First, Job was not allowed to be touched in his body. Then, God allowed the devil to touch his body just to not kill him. And those sores or boils, sound like a serious and debilitating staph infection. But, no, you have some alternate explanation for that entire book of the Bible. Also known as rationalizing.

Well, since you are not only twisting the Bible to contort it into your special heresy, but now twisting and reading into my words what I did not say, to say nothing of never commenting on my posts and exegesis of every Scripture you posted, because you can't, there is nothing you can say that has not been disproved, by merely using the fundamental rules of Biblical interpretation. I am out of this discussion.

You must have missed the post just before the post you replied to here #322.

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-i-change-reality-with-my-words.182799/post-3849182

I addressed my understanding of how Matt 8 combined with Isa 53 in that post, in response to yours.

One thing you have to learn is that all of us interpret scriptures using our own individual backgrounds, schemas and church traditions. Do you notice I try to agree with you whenever possible, understand where you are coming from, respect your right to have an opinion, a belief etc?

When people disagree with your interpretation and offer their own, you don't have judge them as "twisting scriptures' or believing in heresies. That borders to arrogance. A discussion forum like this is for all of us to present our view and learn from other people with differing views.

 

[Guojing]

The answer is yes if what we ask is within God's will and works with His kingdom. The answer is no is what we ask is outside the will of the Lord.

For proof scripture, the Lord's Prayer would be one proof. We ask "thy will be done".

The appeal of having this belief "If the Lord heals, it was his will to heal, if not, then it must not have been his will" is very understandable.

We will never be wrong no matter what happens.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The appeal of having this belief "If the Lord heals, it was his will to heal, if not, then it must not have been his will" is very understandable.

We will never be wrong no matter what happens.

how do you mean wrong in this case?

how is this a question of 'wrong'?

I think I know what you are saying, but I am curious as to your choice of words and what you are indicating

 

[Guojing]

how do you mean wrong in this case?

how is this a question of 'wrong'?

I think I know what you are saying, but I am curious as to your choice of words and what you are indicating

You can contrast it to having the belief "It IS the Lord's will to heal you because of Jesus's finished work on the cross", and then proceed to pray for healing for either yourself or others.

 

[CherieR]

when you belong to the true body of Jesus Christ, it is definitely our 'job' to 'JUDGE' the brethren,
and 'correct, them when they are in error'...
if you belong to the Body of Christ, then Holy Judgment is one of our many jobs', and one that is not pleasing,
but so very necessary...

I think the key words are holy judgement. Examples of unholy judging would be fault finding, criticizing, looking down on others etc. Holy judgement is being discerning of the right way and discerns the character of others. Holy judgement corrects but out of love and the right attitude.

 

[presidente]

The idea that at least some blessings and curses have power is implied throughout the Old Testament. Noah's curse had power. Wouldn't we expect David's curse on Joab to have power.

Isaac and Jacob's blessings had power, and Abraham having powerful blessings was something God bestowed on him.

Cursing a deaf manwas forbidden. Why would it be in any way comparable to putting a stumbling block before a blind man ifxurses could have no power?
The idea behind saying "May it it be unto me and more" may be the idea that e ly bthe curses could be harmful.

 

[Absolutely]

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I need my Bible study tools, and this is the first time I have been at my computer with access to them.

First, I have NEVER said that Jesus didn't heal on earth, and that he doesn't heal today. That is a straw man you keep propping up. What I object to, is the bad, out of context use of that verse. First, it must go with verse 16.

"When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17 This was to fulfillwhat was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:

“He took up our infirmities
and bore our diseases.”" Matt. 8:16-17

So, what is Matthew doing here? Is he giving the prophecy to us, in our day? Of course not! It says clearly that part of the reason Jesus healed, (besides his compassion) was to FULFILL the prophecy in Isaiah which Matthew quotes. Yes, Jesus certainly healed. The prophecy was fulfilled. Matthew certainly saw Isaiah 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but also as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not as a part of the atonement.

Matthew put these lines into his gospel, specifically so people (esp. Jews) would see this fulfillment of prophecy, and know Jesus was the promised Messiah. No, we are not part of fulfilling this prophecy. Only Jesus had the authority to heal. Because he was God, and even with his finite flesh, he had the power and authority of God.

Because we are completely finite, and our bodies have NOT been redeemed, we are not living in in glorified bodies, according to Paul:

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:22-23

So, we are not Jesus, not God, and we are not able to command healing. Plus, again the over-realized eschatology of Word Faith which would have every believer living in a glorified and perfect body from the minute of salvation, although there is no such promise. Instead, even Paul says WE EAGERLY AWAIT. Await what? The redemption of our bodies, when Jesus returns.

As Dr. Gordon Fee, a Pentecostal Biblical Greek scholar says:

"The Bible therefore, does not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. The 2 NT passages, 1 Peter 2:24 and Matt 8:16-17 are the crucial ones for the total 'Health' part of Word Faith. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing as a part of the atonement. (the basis of the demand: God has provided for it, therefore he must heal when asked) with all the texts on faith (since it is fully provided for by God, Word Faith people reason that it may be secured by the correct formula of faith.) Thus the emphasis in this movement is on 'raising people's faith'...And worse, there is a way of interpreting these texts that can make a mockery of the divine will. 'God promises us whatever we ask'. Fortunately, God does not grant everything we ask. For our asking is based on our own limited and finite knowledge, and all too often it is coloured by our self interest. A case in point is Hezekiah. Hezekiah had his prayer for healing answered,, and he was granted 15 more years of life. But, it was during those 15 years the evil Manasseh was born and ruled the land for 55 years, bringing down the nation of Judah in only a few generations" *

Healing is real. I don't deny that. But it is so childish and lacking Christian maturity to think there is a formula we can believe that gives us the right to claim everything Jesus had!

Please take a course in Hermeneutics from a good, Bible believing seminary. You could avoid so many pitfalls, including not clinging to the fact that Matt 8:17, is taken out of context- the people who it was written to, as well as the surrounding verses, when it is point blank obvious that we do not have any such rights to "claim" or "command" healing. You have been terribly deceived! You use the Scriptures incorrectly, and you claim you are a god, because only a god can command healing on demand. Plus, experience shows us over and over that God does NOT heal believers every time. And it is not because of sin, or a lack of faith on their part.


*Gordon Fee, The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel, pg 25-26.

When the bible points to healing as part of the atonement,and you go out of your way to somehow diminish it,what is your motive????

IT CLEARLY SAYS ; ".... by his stripes ye WERE healed"
So many healing verses it is impossible to miss.
Then you point to personal experience as a rock solid test that the bible is wrong.
That conclusion is backwards.
If God said it,and I act on it,my mind may or may not go along with it.
Enter faith.
I meet people all the time that don't know if they are going to heaven when they die. They say they are saved.
What is missing?
Assurance (faith)
We have assurance for healing ,GODS WORD.
IT CAN NOT FAIL.
Healing is DEFINITELY part of the atonement.
What you are seeing is lots of things that disenfranchise.
Unforgiveness not only results in loss of salvation,but eventually loss of health.
People walking in Unforgiveness usually don't recieve healing.
Ancestral curses can block healing.
Watching anti christ tv can block your blessing. Listening to secular music,or confessing Gods word is not true.

When we see moses putting the serpent on the pole,we see healing as part of the atonement big time.
He became a curse for us.
Surely you don't tamper with that also?

 

[Absolutely]

The idea that at least some blessings and curses have power is implied throughout the Old Testament. Noah's curse had power. Wouldn't we expect David's curse on Joab to have power.

Isaac and Jacob's blessings had power, and Abraham having powerful blessings was something God bestowed on him.

Cursing a deaf manwas forbidden. Why would it be in any way comparable to putting a stumbling block before a blind man ifxurses could have no power?
The idea behind saying "May it it be unto me and more" may be the idea that e ly bthe curses could be harmful.

Yep,very true.
Deut 28 has the blessing and cursing we can choose to walk in
I think ot is james that talks about the tongue. with it we bless,with it we curse men.
Scary stuff

 

[Absolutely]

You can contrast it to having the belief "It IS the Lord's will to heal you because of Jesus's finished work on the cross", and then proceed to pray for healing for either yourself or others.

Yes.
Thre is no point in praying for healing if it is not settled in you that God wants us healed.
Enter the nay sayers.
Not only is healing "scruffed off" for them personally,they actually change the word,seek out false teachers,then,with authority,lead others into trashing their faith also.

You cant make this stuff up.
So bizarre.

 

[Absolutely]

Just take God at his word.
Stand on it.
Healing is the childrens bread.
Find the healing verses.
Understand God honors his word.
It is more sure than the sun coming up.
NOW,IF YOU don't get well,nothing manifests,get some " dynamite" and blow that roadblock to a million pieces. Get the thing out of there.

That is WHY you have to have the Holy Ghost filled men and women of God on the job.
Should healing NOT manifest,God reveals the roadblock to them.

IOW, finding the man of God can be as important as the prayer.
Most have not taken the time to get the knowledge that healing is indeed our portion,and seeking heaven as to WHY a person could still be sick after prayer.
Enter the human mind to find all the rabbit trails so we stay sick.

"Oh,I am not healed so lets anul not only healing,but every promise in God's word revealing His mind on the subject."

All made up in the human mind

 

[Absolutely]

I understand God is judge but to be judgemental is different. Judgemental means someone who is negative, critical of others, and it can describe someone who puts others down but are full of pride. A judgemental person sees the faults of others but walks around with an inflated ego. God is not negative nor is he prideful , but rather he is loving. Yes, God does pronounce judgement on the wicked. He is holy and righteous and what he does is just. At the same time God desires that none should perish but all come to repentance and faith in Christ.

We are judged here in this life as mature believers.
We should welcome it.

Most folks wreck and destroy others in their "righteous judgement"