Can Mosaic Law commend you to God

RedTent · Jan 20, 2014

I think we are saying almost the same thing. We both end up with not lying. We agree in everything but the place we put the written law.

Without the written law in our churches we find ministers, even, addicted to porn. Our babies are fed TV with their milk. We don't have boundaries we can point to.

For many, following Christ and following your heart is another way of saying anything we believe in is fine.

That is why I work so to convince the church to say they accept the law. Actually, they do. They look to scripture for the best way to live in Christ. They know and say homosexuality is wrong. Children are raised with law as well as grace. It is just that without the written law, if the media says something is right, few go to scripture to check it out, they accept media.

Keren · Jan 20, 2014

Yahshua said:

Thank you Lord. Please forgive me if i fail. I want to be without sin. Please help me.

Yahshua said:

I didn't see Jesus say anything like that.
Jesus condemned sin in the flesh and set me free from bondage to sin.
He knows we will still fall short, that's why He is High Priest and Advocate.
The Spirit was given as the downpayment on our inheritence, or rather on Our Father's inheritance...of us. He will take full possession at the end of the age.
The Spirit was given as a Teacher and a Comforter, and He leads us in the paths of righteousness.
He conforms us to be like Jesus and He convicts us when we sins so that we will confess and be cleansed.

Yahshua said:

This is not a Biblical teaching. We are not God.
Jesus does not perfect us in the flesh.

Jesus was perfect in the flesh. We are not.
If we were we would not have so many instructions about sin, avoiding it, the consequences of it, identifying it and dealing with it.

Yahshua said:

This is unfair. All Christians try to emulate Jesus. And they all fall short. We are not God.
But the Holy Spirit works in us, comforming us through trials and even scourging (if we are children) to be more and more godly.

Yahshua said:

This is not a Biblical teaching.

Yahshua said:

Well, I should stop here, since you either appear to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ and that He was made LIKE unto sinful flesh and did not have any sin.

Yahshua said:

Do you mean the Law given at Sinai? Moses? Which was added because of transgressions and was until John, when faith came?

Then why did you say this:

Yahshua said:

Why did you answer no if you really believe yes and yes.

IloveyouGod · Jan 20, 2014

If your questions mean ONLY by the law. Then the answer is Nope and Nope.

Keren said:

Keren · Jan 20, 2014

Yahshua said:

Jesus Christ gave this doctrine. He himself fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law from Sinai. He was born under the Law, to redeem those under the Law, and to bring in the gentiles also, all by grace through faith.

Jesus Christ said if you love Me you will keep My words.
Well these are His words, given through His authorized ambassador.

Galatians 5
Freedom in Christ
…4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

The Law was brought in, added to God's Plan because of SIN. To show what sin is. It had nothing to do with the promise, except to make the promise (Christ) more urgently needed.

the Law is not of the Promise, because the Law is not of faith.
in Galatians 5 Paul makes it PLAIN what the Purpose of the Law WAS.

Faith and Belief
(Genesis 15:1-7; Romans 4:1-12; Hebrews 11:8-19; James 2:14-26)1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Christ Redeemed Us
(Deuteronomy 21:22-23)10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Purpose of the Law
(Romans 7:1-6)15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Sons Through Faith in Christ
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

as many as are of the works of the Law are UNDER A CURSE.
Because they have not believed God's testimony about themselves or about His Plan or about His Son. Who was made a curse FOR US.
Do you want to be CURSED?

cfultz3 · Jan 20, 2014

RedTent said:

I know what you are saying, we have to know love as it is defined by what God has said through moral laws. I remember being in middle school when they took out the 10 commandments, which was a constant reminder of God's essence. I do remember saying to myself that day something along the lines of, "God is dying" (with the thought that God is being expelled from America's social thought). I agree that we need to know the Law and I agree that without it, sin becomes more prevalent.

But, I think were we differ is the method used in implementing the Law into one's life: fleshly or spiritually. I have for many years did all I could to keep myself in line with God's will by obedience through the flesh. Sorry to say, it never worked. Something was missing. It is not until one dies to that effort of the flesh that one becomes alive to his spirit and then begins to mind the things from the Spirit. It is only then that we can say that we walk pleasingly before the Lord, because as He speaks to us and if we hearken unto Him, we do that which is God's will in the first place.

I suppose you are right, for many following what their heart says out of ignorance and unwillingness to seek what God has said does lead them to think that their sensational heart (emotions) is the Spirit speaking to them and because it feels like the right thing, they assume, again out of willful ignorance, it must be God's will.

I understand the need to know God's moral Law, seeing that Love is defined by it, but when it is being spoken about and is not defined specifically by the written words of "moral Law" people tend to think that one is speaking about the whole Law, down to sacrificing animals and immediately tune out because they think that the person is saying we are under that Covenant. I find it very helpful when I define "Law" as "moral Law" because not one person (besides one I have meet here) will disagree with it because "Love" is "moral Law". Jesus taught "Love", not "Law" and that is the first thing which comes to a persons mind when they are faced with someone they think is teaching a different message than their Lord's.

BradC · Jan 21, 2014

RedTent said:

We don't disregard the law or lay it aside upon a heap, but we learn from the law and we learn from grace which teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust, and to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. We walk and live in the Spirit and order our steps according to the word and doctrine that we have received by the Spirit. The light we receive from the word gives us understanding as we apply by faith what we have been taught. The law of Moses was holy and for Israel and they were to heed the law as it revealed the holiness of God and exposed the temptation of sin (tempting Christ) that the Israelites experienced in the wilderness. This is what Paul was referring to in (1Cor 10) as the law was given to point out sin that they would become guilty and cleave to the Rock. But God was not well pleased with many of them and overthrew them in the wilderness. These became an example unto us not to follow or lust after evil things and how we should cleave unto that spiritual Rock, Christ.

We now have Christ dwelling within, the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls, and we hide the word in our heart that we might not sin against God. We do not abstain by conforming to the law but we receive grace and put off the old man and all his deeds, lust patterns and appetites of the flesh and are transformed by the renewing of our mind. The law was not given to empower us but the Spirit is through grace and truth. For Jesus to follow the law and stone the woman caught in the very act of adultery (John 8) would have glorified the condemnation of the law but Jesus said he did not come to condemn but to seek and save the lost and to condemn sin in His own flesh. So Jesus by passed the condemnation of the law and gave grace to the guilty woman and set her free to go and sin no more. He was teaching her and others how to live godly through grace and not the law.

john832 · Jan 21, 2014

IloveyouGod said:

The problem is that most see this as an "exclusive or" statement. Either you keep all the Law and it saves you or you don't keep the Law and you are saved only by grace. Law XOR grace. In reality, it is law AND grace.

just-me · Jan 21, 2014

Yahshua said:

Originally Posted by Keren

I have also seen a terrible thing here. Taking the words of Paul and making them say that by the Spirit we now are empowered to obey Mosaic Law better? This also is from Satan.

Whoa!!! this rhetoric sounds very dangerous!

john832 · Jan 21, 2014

just-me said:

Paul was on dangerous ground indeed...

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

just-me · Jan 21, 2014

Paganism????

This is a history lesson of the church that was founded, and finally established in completion in, or around 325AD, for the purpose of separating Jews from the Christian denomination, rather than unite them as God intended, and Paul had ministered.

Romans 1:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Unlike the Apostle Paul, who was uniquely qualified to teach the Jewish people exactly how Yeshua/Jesus fit perfectly into their religion just as the prophecies foretold, the new converts who were Jews like Jesus and like Paul, were forced to abandon everything that had anything to do with the Jewish faith, starting less than a century after Christ’s crucifixion.

From: “Restoring The Jewishness Of The Gospel: A Message For Christians by David Stern

"Now That you're Christian, Have a Ham Sandwich!"
As far as Jewish evangelism is concerned, it became standard practice by the fourth century not to follow Paul's pattern of presenting the Gospel in the way most congenial to those for whom it was intended. On the contrary, it was not enough that a Jew should accept Jesus as his Messiah, Savior and Lord; he had to "convert to Christianity” which usually meant adopting an alien culture and sometimes required him to give up everything Jewish! The latter can be seen in this profession from the Church of Constantinople which Jews had to affirm if they wanted to join the holy Community of the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua [Jesus]:
"I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations, and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom. . . . and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and
condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.”

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

Read more:What is the origin of the Catholic Church?

Yahshua · Jan 22, 2014

Keren said:

Your question was “can the law make you righteous enough to enter God’s presence?" I answered and believe “no”, “no”…

The Law has one job, to establish was sin is and by effect show why God is just and we are unjust WITHOUT CHRIST. WITHOUT CHRIST (it MUST be a different story WITH CHRIST). The Law is the balance; the scales that measure. You and I are placed on that scale and are weighed against the Law and are found wanting...

Christ’s job is to fix us; to make sure we are not found wanting on that scale. Christ’s job is NOT to remove the scale from even measuring. So I answered “no” to your questions because the answer is “no”.

Christ “makes us righteous” to enter into God’s presence...but what’s often misunderstood is exactly *how* he does (present tense) this; the mechanics behind it...and as a result, many misunderstand what is written concerning this subject. For instance:

1. “Be perfect even as you father in heaven is perfect” is a command by Christ. - A fact we agree on.

2. *We* can’t be perfect, only Christ can. – A fact we agree on.

3. But if we have faith in Christ, he gives us his Spirit in order that *HE* alone may progress towards perfection in *THIS* body; a 100% Biblical Teaching. A fact we don't agree on. But this is the actual gospel of the kingdom.

Philippians 1:6

“he” works “in you” (i.e. IN YOUR FLESH FROM ADAM), but for what purpose?

Ephesians 4:13

…The purpose is to achieve the measure of the STATURE of the FULLNESS of CHRIST in you. This is the mystery...

Colossians 1:27

Christ FULLY – by full measure – in each one of those who believe in him, character for character.

2 Corinthians 3:18

This is the mystery. The goal. It’s what waits to be completed.

Revelation 10:7

It’s the reason why Christ speaks with a voice of many waters.

Revelation 1:14

...Because it’s the voice of the body of Christ speaking in unison. The voice of many people speaking in unison sounds like rushing water (go to any sports event for a sample). It’s also the reason why the angel explains to Daniel that the man who ascends to heaven to receive his throne (a clear vision of Christ), ARE *the saints* who receive the kingdom.

Daniel 7:13-14

Daniel 7:16-17

This was the point of my conversation.

You keep saying “we are not” and “we can not” and while I never said we are God, I was trying to point out that “of course *we* are not” and “of course *we* can not”...only Christ does this task, but it’s a task of achieving the life HE first achieved when he walked the earth; obedience – himself in the SAME flesh of Adam (2 John 1:7) - approx. 2000 years ago.

Jacob's prophecy in Genesis 49:10 says, "the scepter shall not depart from Judah [Christ is from Judah]...UNTIL Shilo [Heb. 'To whom it belongs'] comes; [yiqqəhaṯ] obedient [amim] people."

[By the way, there can not be anything *special* or different about his flesh 2000 years ago or it RUINS the entire gospel message, because if he had special flesh then Christ didn't really resist this flesh of ours to prove he was sinless. Christ had to have THIS flesh. John 1:14]

But every time you and others say “we can't” or “I can't” you prove one thing: that *you* are currently still alive. You prove you’re still looking at life from the perspective of being in your 1st life; you’re still living your 1st life under you’re *own* power. You prove that you haven’t yet died to self in faith. It’s not supposed to be *you* in that body of yours at this point anymore. It’s supposed to be Christ alone, in your body...the SAME flesh of Adam that he received from mary (2 John 1:7; John 1:14). That why the genealogy of Matthew and Luke are so important because they go right back to Adam.

Do you see what I’m saying now?

So when I say Christ is in you “so that he may again be perfect in Adam’s flesh (2 John 1:7), through you” I was saying you’re supposed to be dead in this process; crucified with Christ on the cross (Galatians 2:20). And if you’re dead...who’s the only one left in your flesh to animate it, but Christ? The problem is many don’t believe they were crucified with Christ. They believe Christ was crucified, surely, but they don't believe THEY were crucified with him; they haven’t yet taken up their cross (as act of faith) to die, though they think they have.

Whoever loves THEIR life will lose it, but whoever ends their life for Christ will inherit life eternal.

Keren said:

What you say here is true but you're asking this question out of context. Paul was speaking about the covenant of Abraham (a covenant of inheritance based on faith), saying the Law (which came later) can not nullify a previously ratified covenant. What Paul says here also shows that faith always preceded the Law...but it STILL does not nullify it.

Galatians 3:21

Here Paul concludes exactly what I began this post saying:

The Law is the balance; the scales that measure. You and I are placed on that scale and are weighed against the Law and are found wanting...Christ’s job is to fix us; to make sure we are not found wanting on that scale. But the only way for Christ to fix us is for us to have faith THAT HE CAN and that we are dead so only he lives in us to do it. This is what having faith in Christ means. This is why faith comes first. This is why salvation is by faith. And we're not talking about having faith that the Son of God exists. Even the human agents of satan believe that...no we're talking about faith that you are gone and that Christ exists in you to live a life of obedience to God once again.

If a farmer sows a seed into the earth he expects a crop of exactly that seed, not a crop that's similar to that seed but not really it. Sow corn and one expects a corn harvest, not something that resembles corn; sow zucchini and one expects zucchini. Christ was sown into the earth, so there's only one crop God is looking to reap when harvest time comes (John 12:42).

Whenever a believer says "I can't" or "we can't" even *after* saying they accept Christ they're effectively saying "even though Christ is in me, it's impossible for him to do in me what he did 2000 years ago" even though this body is the same soil and he is the seed that's supposed to grow (1 John 3:9). We "Have a form of godliness (religious) but denying the power thereof" (2 Tim 3:5).

I only mean to implore us to stop denying The Power.

Yahshua · Jan 22, 2014

...that last verse of John 12:42 is supposed to be John 12:24

Keren · Jan 22, 2014

Yahshua said:

Your question was “can the law make you righteous enough to enter God’s presence?" I answered and believe “no”, “no”…

The Law has one job, to establish was sin is and by effect show why God is just and we are unjust WITHOUT CHRIST. WITHOUT CHRIST (it MUST be a different story WITH CHRIST). The Law is the balance; the scales that measure. You and I are placed on that scale and are weighed against the Law and are found wanting...

Christ’s job is to fix us; to make sure we are not found wanting on that scale. Christ’s job is NOT to remove the scale from even measuring. So I answered “no” to your questions because the answer is “no”.

Christ “makes us righteous” to enter into God’s presence...but what’s often misunderstood is exactly *how* he does (present tense) this; the mechanics behind it...and as a result, many misunderstand what is written concerning this subject. For instance:

1. “Be perfect even as you father in heaven is perfect” is a command by Christ. - A fact we agree on.

2. *We* can’t be perfect, only Christ can. – A fact we agree on.

3. But if we have faith in Christ, he gives us his Spirit in order that *HE* alone may progress towards perfection in *THIS* body; a 100% Biblical Teaching. A fact we don't agree on. But this is the actual gospel of the kingdom.

Philippians 1:6

“he” works “in you” (i.e. IN YOUR FLESH FROM ADAM), but for what purpose?

Ephesians 4:13

…The purpose is to achieve the measure of the STATURE of the FULLNESS of CHRIST in you. This is the mystery...

Colossians 1:27

Christ FULLY – by full measure – in each one of those who believe in him, character for character.

2 Corinthians 3:18

This is the mystery. The goal. It’s what waits to be completed.

Revelation 10:7

It’s the reason why Christ speaks with a voice of many waters.

Revelation 1:14

...Because it’s the voice of the body of Christ speaking in unison. The voice of many people speaking in unison sounds like rushing water (go to any sports event for a sample). It’s also the reason why the angel explains to Daniel that the man who ascends to heaven to receive his throne (a clear vision of Christ), ARE *the saints* who receive the kingdom.

Daniel 7:13-14

Daniel 7:16-17

This was the point of my conversation.

You keep saying “we are not” and “we can not” and while I never said we are God, I was trying to point out that “of course *we* are not” and “of course *we* can not”...only Christ does this task, but it’s a task of achieving the life HE first achieved when he walked the earth; obedience – himself in the SAME flesh of Adam (2 John 1:7) - approx. 2000 years ago.

Jacob's prophecy in Genesis 49:10 says, "the scepter shall not depart from Judah [Christ is from Judah]...UNTIL Shilo [Heb. 'To whom it belongs'] comes; [yiqqəhaṯ] obedient [amim] people."

[By the way, there can not be anything *special* or different about his flesh 2000 years ago or it RUINS the entire gospel message, because if he had special flesh then Christ didn't really resist this flesh of ours to prove he was sinless. Christ had to have THIS flesh. John 1:14]

I'm sorry. I had to stop there.
You're still saying you're going to be exactly like Christ was when He walked the earth, primarily meaning obedience to the Law. One time you say of course we can't because we are not God, then you seem to say we can because He was also a Man.
am I right? I never said He had different flesh. I said He was a man but He was also God.
The Mosaic Law can not commend you to God in any way, it is established forever as a witness against every man but Christ.
If you wish to discuss righteousness apart from the law, which is by faith, and is distributed to man by God, more and more according to how we respond in faith, I will talk to you about it. I will not talk to anyone who is trying to make the Law of Moses their yardstick for righteousness, believing they measure up - ever.

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Can Mosaic Law commend you to God

can the Law make you righteous enough to enter God's presence?

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RedTent

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IloveyouGod

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BradC

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john832

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just-me

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