Can people be a Christian and a Karaite Jew simultaneously?

[Grandpa]

It is as if you read things into scripture, and even the words used in scripture mean something completely foreign. You speak of Christ as a new God, separate from the God spoken of at creation and I can't understand you. You speak of the law as apart from God, and that just doesn't compute. You speak of us being in a new kind of world with the new covenant and I can't imagine God cancelling the old and inserting something entirely new. That would cancel that God is eternal. You say the sacrificial system and God's plan for our redemption has no relation to each other, and that would mean that the plan God had at the time Adam fell had no relation to a God, yet the earth that God controlled certainly was the earth then as it is now, so how could they be that separate? It seems to me that you don't see God as our God to come up with these things.

You speak of law as if Christ is of no consequence.

Like nothing even happened. All we need is law.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I know you and the other legalists have read this. I just don't think you understand it.


God Himself effectively canceled YOUR understanding of the OT. God didn't cancel Himself.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I keep seeing 'karate' Jew every time I pass over this thread

so I had to finally get it off my mind

and the answer is no


next question: can you practice karate and be a Christian?

 

[Grandpa]

You just described the very reason/s I quit going to "churches of stone."
It would be like, I could certainly "feel love", during the singing part.
But, the "spiritual" part in the singing? Made me want to stand up and scream:
"WHO!" "ARE YOU PEOPLE SINGING TO?"
T'was like I was feeling the book of Jude revealing itself!

I like the worship part too.

But I never got angry during it wondering who everyone else was worshipping.

It sounds like you are mad because people don't worship YOUR understanding of who God is.

Seems kind of sad.

 

[kaylagrl]

It is as if you read things into scripture, and even the words used in scripture mean something completely foreign. You speak of Christ as a new God, separate from the God spoken of at creation and I can't understand you. You speak of the law as apart from God, and that just doesn't compute. You speak of us being in a new kind of world with the new covenant and I can't imagine God cancelling the old and inserting something entirely new. That would cancel that God is eternal. You say the sacrificial system and God's plan for our redemption has no relation to each other, and that would mean that the plan God had at the time Adam fell had no relation to a God, yet the earth that God controlled certainly was the earth then as it is now, so how could they be that separate? It seems to me that you don't see God as our God to come up with these things.

Here are verses directly against your false doctrine. You can't understand because you aren't reading a word I say. You are making it up. Never did I say Christ was not God, that is a lie. The law was fulfilled in Christ. I did not say the sacrificial system had nothing to do with God,another lie. If you will not read my words but simply lie to make yourself look smart and holier than thou then we'll get no where. Stop lying and read the posts.


Rom. 2:12, "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law," ….


Gal. 3:23, "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed," …


Gal. 4:5, "in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons...


If we are still under the Law, we are judged by the Law.

Deuteronomy 27:26 it says, "‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’"

Rom. 6:14, "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace."

Gal. 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."


Rom-"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God,"


Rom-"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter...

Christians are no longer under the Law,they have died with Christ.

 

[kaylagrl]

I keep seeing 'karate' Jew every time I pass over this thread

so I had to finally get it off my mind

and the answer is no


next question: can you practice karate and be a Christian?

Hahaha!! So it's not just me!!

 

[NayborBear]

I like the worship part too.

But I never got angry during it wondering who everyone else was worshipping.

It sounds like you are mad because people don't worship YOUR understanding of who God is.

Seems kind of sad.

What's sad Grandpa, is people only take from this verse, that which they want. Ignoring the first part.
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

When one simply refuses to enter into the Government of the Kingdom? Or, gets turned around after trying?
It's like the clay saying to the Potter forming it? "I am formed well enough, for ME!" "But, but wait!" Says the Potter. "I'm not even near done with you yet!" "There's more "Word of God", I can instill in you." "Oh yes!" Comes the reply from the vessel. "You are!" "Alright." Says the potter reluctantly. "Come back when you are ready?" Asks the Potter. "Ubetcha!" Says the vessel.
And just like an illegal alien being released to return for his asylum hearing? Never seen again!
As the vessel runs hither and thither seeking out other "partly formed" vessels, of similar mindsets/attitudes.
Welcome to "traditions of man!"

 

[WalkingTree]

Christians are no longer under the Law,they have died with Christ.

Died to what? Can you explain according to the chapter in Romans you quote just what the Christian has died to, in relation to the law?

 

[kaylagrl]

Died to what? Can you explain according to the chapter in Romans you quote just what the Christian has died to, in relation to the law?

Rom 7- But now we have been are released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[Blik]

You speak of law as if Christ is of no consequence.

Like nothing even happened. All we need is law.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I know you and the other legalists have read this. I just don't think you understand it.


God Himself effectively canceled YOUR understanding of the OT. God didn't cancel Himself.

I don't see how you can separate God into parts for God is one. God is love and law is love in action. Faith, God, love, acting in response to God are all of one piece. If you take out one you wreck the whole. You will just have to go ahead and shake your judging finger at me with a legalist label, but I fundamentally believe in learning all I can about the glorious God who created us and do my best to keep my life in harmony with that God. You call that legalistic law. I call it simply living, for God gave us life and is our all.

As it is explained in the first chapter of Isaiah, Christ does not work for our salvation and Lord when we use what Christ did for us improperly. Isaiah is speaking of the salvation we have in Christ. The proper use of Christ is explained in Isaiah 1:16 "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil." It goes on to explain that we will then be washed clean as snow.

Christ is for forgiveness of all our sin, and through Him we are pure and righteous. We can't make ourselves pure and righteous. But without our "work"!!! to turn away from sin, (you call that legalistic law) there is no forgiveness. Isaiah 1: 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

 

[Blik]

Rom 7- But now we have been are released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We are not released from the love and ways of God into sin, and the bondage of sin. We are released from the sin that has been in our life because we are human. With your will you turn from that sin, and when you do and take it to Christ we are released from the death that sin produces.

 

[JosephsDreams]

I was speaking to a Jewish friend about this very thing last month. He essentially said as a Jew you can not believe the messiah has come.

 

[WalkingTree]

Rom 7- But now we have been are released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I asked according to the chapter in Romans you quoted. Which would be chapter 6. But it's ok, we can go here first, it's all connected.

​

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.​

I think your missing a key point here. What bound is not the law, but sin that worked through the law. Did you realize Paul states it's possible to be alive 'apart from the law'? How? We are released from the law having died to sin. You're going to have to realize that Romans is not about being released from the law so much as it's about having died to sin.

The Law and Sin​

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.​

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.​

This is the context of 'how' being released from the Law works. Paul goes on to show how the law and sin are inextricably linked, and how in our inner being (where the Spirit dwells) we long to and are able to follow God's law. But in our flesh, where the law reigns, will forever be tied to death.

Your premise if I'm correct is that Paul is teaching we are released from the law. But while you're quoting him in that regard he is actually speaking of a deeper meaning than what you present. We are released from the law because we have died to sin which had it's power through the law. ONLY by having died to sin are we released from he law.

Moving on to my main point, the whole of Romans chapter 6 is about the power of sin being broken in our lives by our union with Jesus through the Spirit. It's not about how the law has been removed, it's about how sin has been removed. I do loathe to quote a lot of scripture all at once, but it does prove my point.

Romans 6 New Living Translation (NLT)
Sin’s Power Is Broken
6 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

12 Do not let sin control the way you live;[a] do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.

What have we died to? The law, or sin? Is this future tense? Are we not joined with Christ Jesus now, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Which was accomplished for us upon his death? Are we not dead and buried with Christ by immersion of the Spirit? Is Jesus not living now so that we too may live, now?

Being raised to life, happens when? After death? Have we not 'now' died with Christ, and are we not now raised with him through the power of the Spirit? In this new life are we still slaves to sin?

When Christ died did he not set us free from the power of sin? Romans 6:7

Are we not to now consider ourselves dead to the power of sin? Romans 6:11

And how does this relate to being released from the law? Well that is where the next chapter comes in that you jumped to. Having been released from that which bound us, namely sin, we are released from the law. In which sin used against us.

What many don't seem to perceive is the fact that 'to be dead in Christ' means you are not only free from sin but free from the power of sin, which is the law. 1 Corinthians 15:56


So, you tied our release from the law to being bound by, the law. Your premise seems to be that which bound us to the law was the law, and we are now not bound to it. And you used these two chapters of Romans to prove your point. I wondered if you knew how tied to sin the law was? And if you understood that being released from the law means being free from sin's power. According to Paul.

​

 

[kaylagrl]

We are not released from the love and ways of God into sin, and the bondage of sin. We are released from the sin that has been in our life because we are human. With your will you turn from that sin, and when you do and take it to Christ we are released from the death that sin produces.

We are not released from the love and ways of God into sin, and the bondage of sin.

How does anything you said relate to the law of the OT? Or anything about the subject?

 

[WalkingTree]

I was speaking to a Jewish friend about this very thing last month. He essentially said as a Jew you can not believe the messiah has come.

Obviously not a Messianic Jew then.

 

[WalkingTree]

We are not released from the love and ways of God into sin, and the bondage of sin. We are released from the sin that has been in our life because we are human. With your will you turn from that sin, and when you do and take it to Christ we are released from the death that sin produces.

I actually don't think it's our will that turns us from sin. I think it's our childlike faith that wants to sit at the feet of our father that allows his spirit to do his will within us.

 

[kaylagrl]

I asked according to the chapter in Romans you quoted. Which would be chapter 6. But it's ok, we can go here first, it's all connected.

​

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.​

I think your missing a key point here. What bound is not the law, but sin that worked through the law. Did you realize Paul states it's possible to be alive 'apart from the law'? How? We are released from the law having died to sin. You're going to have to realize that Romans is not about being released from the law so much as it's about having died to sin.

The Law and Sin​

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.​

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.​

This is the context of 'how' being released from the Law works. Paul goes on to show how the law and sin are inextricably linked, and how in our inner being (where the Spirit dwells) we long to and are able to follow God's law. But in our flesh, where the law reigns, will forever be tied to death.

Your premise if I'm correct is that Paul is teaching we are released from the law. But while you're quoting him in that regard he is actually speaking of a deeper meaning than what you present. We are released from the law because we have died to sin which had it's power through the law. ONLY by having died to sin are we released from he law.

Moving on to my main point, the whole of Romans chapter 6 is about the power of sin being broken in our lives by our union with Jesus through the Spirit. It's not about how the law has been removed, it's about how sin has been removed. I do loathe to quote a lot of scripture all at once, but it does prove my point.


What have we died to? The law, or sin? Is this future tense? Are we not joined with Christ Jesus now, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Which was accomplished for us upon his death? Are we not dead and buried with Christ by immersion of the Spirit? Is Jesus not living now so that we too may live, now?

Being raised to life, happens when? After death? Have we not 'now' died with Christ, and are we not now raised with him through the power of the Spirit? In this new life are we still slaves to sin?

When Christ died did he not set us free from the power of sin? Romans 6:7

Are we not to now consider ourselves dead to the power of sin? Romans 6:11

And how does this relate to being released from the law? Well that is where the next chapter comes in that you jumped to. Having been released from that which bound us, namely sin, we are released from the law. In which sin used against us.

What many don't seem to perceive is the fact that 'to be dead in Christ' means you are not only free from sin but free from the power of sin, which is the law. 1 Corinthians 15:56


So, you tied our release from the law to being bound by, the law. Your premise seems to be that which bound us to the law was the law, and we are now not bound to it. And you used these two chapters of Romans to prove your point. I wondered if you knew how tied to sin the law was? And if you understood that being released from the law means being free from sin's power. According to Paul.

​

Yes, I appreciate you going in depth here. But I'm trying to get past the surface with people who are arguing we are still under the law. I'm not trying to go that deep because they can't get past step one. Your points are totally correct and thank you for sharing them but we're still back on step one where we're under sacrificing animals and having priest to represent us before God. I thought that was your argument alone with several others here and that is why I posted the verse. Perhaps you can get them to understand better than I can so we can get off step one.

 

[kaylagrl]

I was speaking to a Jewish friend about this very thing last month. He essentially said as a Jew you can not believe the messiah has come.

As WT said a Messianic Jew would believe Jesus has come. Otherwise Jews are still waiting for their Messiah because they have been blinded to the truth.

 

[Blik]

I asked according to the chapter in Romans you quoted. Which would be chapter 6. But it's ok, we can go here first, it's all connected.

​

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.​

I think your missing a key point here. What bound is not the law, but sin that worked through the law. Did you realize Paul states it's possible to be alive 'apart from the law'? How? We are released from the law having died to sin. You're going to have to realize that Romans is not about being released from the law so much as it's about having died to sin.

The Law and Sin​

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.​

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.​

This is the context of 'how' being released from the Law works. Paul goes on to show how the law and sin are inextricably linked, and how in our inner being (where the Spirit dwells) we long to and are able to follow God's law. But in our flesh, where the law reigns, will forever be tied to death.

Your premise if I'm correct is that Paul is teaching we are released from the law. But while you're quoting him in that regard he is actually speaking of a deeper meaning than what you present. We are released from the law because we have died to sin which had it's power through the law. ONLY by having died to sin are we released from he law.

Moving on to my main point, the whole of Romans chapter 6 is about the power of sin being broken in our lives by our union with Jesus through the Spirit. It's not about how the law has been removed, it's about how sin has been removed. I do loathe to quote a lot of scripture all at once, but it does prove my point.


What have we died to? The law, or sin? Is this future tense? Are we not joined with Christ Jesus now, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Which was accomplished for us upon his death? Are we not dead and buried with Christ by immersion of the Spirit? Is Jesus not living now so that we too may live, now?

Being raised to life, happens when? After death? Have we not 'now' died with Christ, and are we not now raised with him through the power of the Spirit? In this new life are we still slaves to sin?

When Christ died did he not set us free from the power of sin? Romans 6:7

Are we not to now consider ourselves dead to the power of sin? Romans 6:11

And how does this relate to being released from the law? Well that is where the next chapter comes in that you jumped to. Having been released from that which bound us, namely sin, we are released from the law. In which sin used against us.

What many don't seem to perceive is the fact that 'to be dead in Christ' means you a I I re not only free from sin but free from the power of sin, which is the law. 1 Corinthians 15:56


So, you tied our release from the law to being bound by, the law. Your premise seems to be that which bound us to the law was the law, and we are now not bound to it. And you used these two chapters of Romans to prove your point. I wondered if you knew how tied to sin the law was? And if you understood that being released from the law means being free from sin's power. According to Paul.

 

[Blik]

Yes, I appreciate you going in depth here. But I'm trying to get past the surface with people who are arguing we are still under the law. I'm not trying to go that deep because they can't get past step one. Your points are totally correct and thank you for sharing them but we're still back on step one where we're under sacrificing animals and having priest to represent us before God. I thought that was your argument alone with several others here and that is why I posted the verse. Perhaps you can get them to understand better than I can so we can get off step one.

If you think the sacrificial system is about animals, you simply can not speak of it for you are speaking of something that isn't there. It is the same with your "under the law". If you are speaking of not being under the law as not needing to live for Christ, it is so foreign a meaning that it is speaking of something that isn't there. If you are speaking of being "under the law" as using the law for salvation, then we can argue about it because we would be arguing about the same thing.

 

[Blik]

Died to what? Can you explain according to the chapter in Romans you quote just what the Christian has died to, in relation to the law?

I think what scripture means is that we have accepted the freedom from sin that Christ did for us, in that way we died to the law because Christ wiped out the sin the law tells us about. Then we live in a way so Christlike that the law isn't part of our thoughts.

The law still applies to our life after we are free of sin by defining for us what sin is that is opposed to living for Christ.