Can Salvation be lost??

cenallen · Aug 15, 2012

how do you suppose anyone can be as righteous as God?
if you had a million years to work on it, would you be as righteous as God?

so how is it God will ever consider you righteous?

can you work for/on it?

Romans 4 1 What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh? 2 for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast -- but not before God; 3 for what doth the writing say? 'And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;' 4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt; 5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness: 6 even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:
7 'Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered;

8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

Cobus said:

meet Jesus Christ, the perfect Person.

Romans 3 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, 23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- 24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- 26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus.

27 Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: 28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law. 29 The God of Jews only is He, and not also of nations? 30 yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith.

you can try to work for your righteous standing before God, which is and will be rejected, or you can be clean and declared perfectly righteous by faith in Jesus.

" and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:"

" being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

Red33 · Aug 15, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

There is no middle ground and no compromise on the salvation that God has provided to sinful man. It is given by grace through faith and is kept and preserved by God.

Ps 37:28
28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

'preserved' is shamar and God is the one performing the action of guarding, keeping and protecting as one who would do with a priceless treasure (Mt 16:26). The soul that God has redeemed with His blood is a priceless treasure hid in our earthen vessel (2Cor 4:7). The treasure has the same value as the blood that purchased it and only God can guard, keep and protect it. All we can do is claim by faith what God has done through the redemption of our soul (Ps 34:22, 103:4, 1Pt 1:18-21), even redeeming us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13).

2Cor 4:7
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 15, 2012

Red33 said:

There is no middle ground and no compromise on the salvation that God has provided to sinful man. It is given by grace through faith and is kept and preserved by God.

Ps 37:28
28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

'preserved' is shamar and God is the one performing the action of guarding, keeping and protecting as one who would do with a priceless treasure (Mt 16:26). The soul that God has redeemed with His blood is a priceless treasure hid in our earthen vessel (2Cor 4:7). The treasure has the same value as the blood that purchased it and only God can guard, keep and protect it. All we can do is claim by faith what God has done through the redemption of our soul (Ps 34:22, 103:4, 1Pt 1:18-21), even redeeming us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13).

2Cor 4:7
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Did you bother to read the links....just wondering?

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 15, 2012

Red33 said:

Faith in Christ saves you and the way you live your life is evidence of faith or lack thereof ....period.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Was the prodigal son not a son before he went astray? Did he not become "dead" and "lost". Let me guess, you are gonna say they always comeback. I'm not so sure about that.

Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant (what servant? The faithful one from verse 42) say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Red33 · Aug 15, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

No, I did not. I have read so much on here over the past (25) months on this and did not make the effort this time. I responded to your comment about compromise and not on any of the specifics contained in those links.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 15, 2012

Red33 said:

God wont forsake them but you can forsake God.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 15, 2012

Red33 said:

Thanks for the honesty but its not so much about compromise as it is both sides only represent half the truth.

Red33 · Aug 15, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

I don't know if you understand or have considered positional truth and experiential truth for the believer. Positional truth is what God has already made us to be as a new creature through the new birth when we first believed upon Christ. God has done this so that we can be accepted by Him. In this life we are becoming day by day experientially what God has already made us to be positionally. We have not arrived there yet, but we are becoming. We have to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of our mind. God has to put us through trials and testings to make the word come alive in us so that we can think with God in the details of life and have Christ formed in us. Our position of being made acceptable and placed in Christ never changes and that is who we are and we are to set our mind on the things of God that come from above. However, we have human bodies and we live in this life and God did not remove our old sin natures when He saved us and we have to depend on His mercy and grace for all things.

We should never be quick to judge another because of the plan of God. The father never judged his younger son and waited with anticipation and expectation for his return. We don't know how long he was involved in riotous living but it took some time for him to realize what he had left. He was drawn back because of the memories he had of his father's house. The elder brother who was hard at work in the field, doing the will of his father, was not fond of his younger brother and refused to rejoice with the others. He was negative because he did not have mercy or grace in his heart. He was a good and faithful son but did not understand the heart of his father. The prodigal was restored to all that he had before he left and was never put on probation. In that far country he did not experience the life he had in his father's house and lived in death with no fellowship. But when he came home and was restored he was made alive again in his father's house. The only thing that he lost in that far country was the love and joy he had in his father's house and he wanted that more than anything. This is what the backslider needs, to get back to his father's house and be restored without a single person judging them or resenting them for what they had done.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 15, 2012

Red33 said:

I don't know if you understand or have considered positional truth and experiential truth for the believer. Positional truth is what God has already made us to be as a new creature through the new birth when we first believed upon Christ. God has done this so that we can be accepted by Him. In this life we are becoming day by day experientially what God has already made us to be positionally. We have not arrived there yet, but we are becoming. We have to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of our mind. God has to put us through trials and testings to make the word come alive in us so that we can think with God in the details of life and have Christ formed in us. Our position of being made acceptable and placed in Christ never changes and that is who we are and we are to set our mind on the things of God that come from above. However, we have human bodies and we live in this life and God did not remove our old sin natures when He saved us and we have to depend on His mercy and grace for all things.

We should never be quick to judge another because of the plan of God. The father never judged his younger son and waited with anticipation and expectation for his return. We don't know how long he was involved in riotous living but it took some time for him to realize what he had left. He was drawn back because of the memories he had of his father's house. The elder brother who was hard at work in the field, doing the will of his father, was not fond of his younger brother and refused to rejoice with the others. He was negative because he did not have mercy or grace in his heart. He was a good and faithful son but did not understand the heart of his father. The prodigal was restored to all that he had before he left and was never put on probation. In that far country he did not experience the life he had in his father's house and lived in death with no fellowship. But when he came home and was restored he was made alive again in his father's house. The only thing that he lost in that far country was the love and joy he had in his father's house and he wanted that more than anything. This is what the backslider needs, to get back to his father's house and be restored without a single person judging them or resenting them for what they had done.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I simply disagree. Thats not what the text says. The text said he was "dead" which means he lost his life....not physical but spiritual life.

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 15, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

one must assume his father was ever spiritually alive, and not dead. Big assumption there, unless I misunderstood what your point was

feedm3 · Aug 15, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

Faith in Christ saves you and the way you live your life is evidence of faith or lack thereof ....period.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Was the prodigal son not a son before he went astray? Did he not become "dead" and "lost". Let me guess, you are gonna say they always comeback. I'm not so sure about that.

Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant (what servant? The faithful one from verse 42) say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Good point, the text is plain the words are clear that describe the son's condition while he was away (dead) and when he returned (repented) (alive). You have to want to not understand this.

feedm3 · Aug 15, 2012

What does paul say here? He is talking to a whole bunch of people, and he breakes them into two groups.

So are you saying the 2nd group was never saved? Or became unsaved by returning to the Law? OR were they still saved even if they returned to the law?
"YE" and "WE" do not show two groups of people as I will show below.

So you believe in OSAS except for those who try to return to the law? IF you say they were never saved, then how did they "fall from grace", how can you fall from where you have never been, or fall from what you never had???? How can Christ BECOME of no effect upon one he has never effected????

Again were they ever saved? Or did they become unsaved?
Your whole argument for two groups fall when we take this reasoning and apply it to Heb 10. Paul in Hebrews 10 says "IF WE sin willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sins" - vs 25.

Notice the "WE" meaning self inclusive.

You have said this portion of scripture was speaking to non-Christians, then you changed it and said it was speaking of those who were returning to the law, and the sacrifice was meant animal sacrifice.

So which ever you believe now, it does not matter, because according to what you wrote above, "WE" includes "Paul" or whoever wrote Heb.

So does this mean Paul was never a Christian? Or if we go the other way, does this mean Paul was returning to the Law of Moses?

Of course not, just because he used "YE" does not mean there is another group of people.
You (and those you read) seem to always need a 2nd group of people to explain passages, ever notice that?

Just like in your attempted explanation of Acts 2, again a 2nd group of people needed to avoid what is written.
Paul was writing the Gal church, that's one group, in the same body.

If "ye" means another group of non saved individuals, then Christ already was "of no effect to them" yet the text "will BECOME of no effect, meaning he was effecting them when Paul wrote them, meaning again, the effect was the blood of Christ cleansing them.

No need to keep adding secrete groups of people to places where the context plainly shows who was being written.
Why would Paul write the Gal church concerning those who were not saved outside of the church?
That my friend is just another weak attempt to try and CHANGE the text.
You should feel scared doing so, I dont care how many others you read that do it also, it still is dishonest.

Gal:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia

"unto the churches" not the church and those who are not in the church. It was to the church. I know you might have an Biblical view of what the church is, but as we see in Acts 2, before one can be a member of the lord's church, he must become saved.

I know who will say, "plenty of people go to church and are not saved," that's because they are not members of the Lord's church.
You can go to a worship service, but to become a member of His body, you must be saved first, Acts 2:37, 38-47

Acts 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily SUCH AS WERE BEING SAVED" -
So again, you see where I am coming from hopefully, this is not a logical argument. Adding a 2nd group everywhere you cant explain is not a sound method to use, it is deception. I hope you will see that.

feedm3 · Aug 15, 2012

Keep the pronouns in Context so this can be understood:

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: (<-----Subject of letter - recipients - )
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace(This proves they "IN" the God's grace") of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ

Now the Pronouns, - YE, US, YOU, WE, Our, - who are these describing?

Vs 6 still refers to the subject in verse 2 "the churches of Galatia".

There was not any change in subjects between 2 and 6.

These were called INTO the grace of God, and were "REMOVED" from it. NOt just called, but had to be in it, in order to be removed from it.

The subject never changes throughout the entire letter.

YE still refers to the churches of Gal, if not then show me where this 2nd group was introduced. It's not there.

It's just a poor attempt, that proves this text cannot be explained in accordance to what you believe, it's called a forced conclusion, and those usually are not hard to tear down, because they are forced, and not warranted by any sound study.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 16, 2012

feedm3 said:

I don't understand. How can you look at what I posted and ask these questions? it is prety evident by what I said what it is I was trying to show.

They were trying to be "justified by law" now you tell me, where these people who were attempting to be justified by law, who paul called "you" ever saved? Has anyone ever been saved by law?

Do what? here you go again twisting my words. Think about it for a minute why don't you.
1. They came from the law. it is what they trusted in.
2. They heard the message of grace, which could set them free.
3. They did not really trust this grace thing, so they added to the message of grace
4. They were trying to add law to grace (circumcision)
5. Paul said we are awaiting our hope. he said they were still trying to earn their hope.

what more evidence do you need? (see gal 1 about teaching a different gospel. There were jews in the church teaching this false gospel, this is who paul is refering too.

Easy, You hear the message which can make you free. you contemplate the message, but you have not yet accepted the message in faith. and before this happens, you decide you do nto trust the thing you can make you free and turn to a different gospel.

Are you saying Jesus ministry and all he did never effected Judas, who walked with him? How many people are affected by the truth and are even influenced by it and the people who follow it, then fall away, because it never took hold because they never truely believed it. Like Judas never truly believed in christ, these people never truely believed in grace!

If we are under law (which is what the author was talking about) there is no sacrifice for sin. why? the sacrifice of bulls and goats never took away sin. They trample underfoot the blood which could save them,

And as always, you always pick and chose parts of a passage to get your point across. and miss the whole picture. How did he end the passage?

39 But [k]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

why do you always do this? if you would just read the whole passage, and not pick and chose. You would see what he is saying.

If (maybe I will or can, maybe I will or cannot) we do this,. this will happen.

BUT we are not of these people, but those of faith to God preserving our soul/ Why? we trust in Christ, NOT LAW.

your whole argument is destroyed by the fact the author of Hebrews said he could not do what you said he claimed he COULD DO. The author of Hebrews is saying the same thing Paul said in galations 5. and the same thing John said in his epistle. "Those born of God can not sin, because they are born of God", or in another part, "they departed FOR THEY WERE NEVER OF US, for if they WERE OF US, they NEVER WOULD HAVE DEPARTED"

You see, unlike you, who loves to pick and chose verses out of scripture which appears to support your works based Gospel/ Those of us who trust in faith look at the whole councel of the word, and see it come together to make one clear message.

1. Paul spoke of him and us, Who were awaiting the hope of righteousness. vs those trying to add law to grace
2. Hebrews spoke him and us, who have faith which preserves the soul, vs those who are adding law to grace and trample on the grace of God
3. John speaks of us who can not return to a life of sin, Who will remain in chruch because we are born of God vs those who say they believe for a time, But reveal their true feelings by departing the church and going back into the world. proving they were never a true part of the church.

Three books of scripture. Supposedly three authors (many think paul wrote hebrews) and three messages which agree as one. yet you can;t see it.

what group of people? in acts two peter told EVERYONE to repent. he only told a select group to be baptized. Peter made it two groups. Not me. You just refuse to see it because it would destroy your belief system!

Paul was writing to a church who had imposters in it trying to distort the truth of God. as in all letters.

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you [c]by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e] accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g] accursed!

Self explanitory!

feedm3 · Aug 16, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

Yes I can show you were we can infer the recipients of Gal were saved. Notice below:

1. The Letter was written to the churches:
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia

The church is not the building, or a home, but the people make the church.
If these were members of the Lord's church then they were saved:

Acts 2:47 and the Lord added to the church daily such as WERE BEING SAVED

2. Paul says they were "soon removed", grammer, logic, and common sense tells us in order to be removed from something, you have to first be there. I will explain this more below in the "falling from grace" section.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ
3. These Gal had "received the Spirit:
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith

Question, can any unsaved person recieve the Spirit?

These are the same Gal that were warned they would fall from grace. Dont try and say this was "another group" that is not mentioned, it is the same people the letter was written, these are the one who were "bewitched" by false teachers trying to bind the law of Moses.

So If they were never saved, how did they receive the Spirit?

What undignified answer will you try and worm around for this?

Before you try, it does NOT say "almost" received the Spirit, or "could have" received the Spirit, but only "recieved the spirit", meaning already obtained.

Nowall you can try on this is, "these are not the same secrete group", yet that is easly defeated by simply reading, they were the ones bewitched which shows no change in subjects.

Your PROVED wrong on this one, your choice if you want to keep being stubborn.

This entire arguments are irrelevant because your basing them on a false premise that they were never saved. So as I showed above, they had the Spirit they were saved.

The next verse:
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh

Of course not, they begun in the spirit to be made perfect by the spirit. Point is for this discussion, THEY HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT

THE PASSAGE THAT DRIVES THE POINT HOME:
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

WHAT DID PAUL say they were? "SONS"? And that the "Spirit of his son" is "in their hearts"? REALLY unsaved people have this?????

IF not, then this proves they were saved.

IF you want to convince anyone their is a secrete group of people there then please show BCV - book chapter and verse.

YOU cant, because the subjects are the same, "the churches of Galatia" responding to those in GAL who were "bewitched" by false teachers, and warning them.

You argument is weak because you want me to believe the letter is addressing two different groups, that it never says exist.

Never does it say "AND YOU" or "no as for those", it never does. WHY? because they are all memebers of the Lords' church, and have the Spirit, begun in the spirit, and have him in their hearts. YOu cant get around these.

Sure, if this is what the text said. Only it does not. HE did not say, you will almost have grace, nor that you, rejected grace, but that you "fallen from grace". LEts look closer to the words:

"fallen from" is from this word:
1601 ekpipto ek-pip'-to from 1537 and 4098; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one's course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:--be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect. see GREEK for 1537 see GREEK for 4098

Your trying to force a definition that says "you rejected grace" as in, never received it.

Yet the word here shows, that it is something that was once obtained, but they would be "driven away from", "cast away from" "TAKE NONE EFFECT" just as it says Christ would BECOME.

Sorry but your definition does not fit the word used. It is a shame I have to explain this in Greek, because even in English it does not fit.

Fallen from - the word "FROM" prep, in, above, around, on, from, shows where one is.

They had to be "IN" or "ON" grace in order to fall from Grace - YOU KNOW THIS

You cannot fall from where you are not. That does not make sense, nor would it suggest a rejection.

Can I fall from a mountain I was not "IN" or "ON"??? NO!

Same with grace, because the English, Greek, common sense, and logic tells us what the meaning of the words are.

Yours fail.

Another irrelevant attempt to try and not answer the question.

Is this context speaking of Jesus "effecting" people in a general sense, or is it speaking of a specific effect? Well see below.

Did Jesus effect Judas? HMMMMM sure I guess in some way, Judas did hang himslef. Jesus also effected the Pharisees in some sense, he made them angry. Also he effected pilate in some sense, he made pilate "marvel".

IS this the meaning of what was spoken to the Gal? NO NO NO, you know that as well.

The context is them returning to parts of the law. The warning is falling from grace. The consequence is Jesus BECOMING OF NO EFFECT.

Sense this is mentioned in the context of falling from grace, then we see what the effect is, the blood on their sins, just like Heb 10:26.

So your attempt here again is a fail, because your bringing up irrelevant hypothetical questions for your answers. Stick to the context. BCV all we need, not Judas and how he was "effected" when that has nothing to do with what is spoken in Gal.

Was Paul warning them that Christ would become of NO EFFECT. "BECOME" again whats the meaning?

And how would them returning to the law make him of NO EFFECT if this was not speaking of salvation.

What effect would be lost then. This is pathetic man. Not you, but your arguments. I guess you feel any answer will do, but it wont. Nor does it make you appear to have an answer, just shows you cant answer.

Yes that's true. Yet that's not what he said was it. IF we sin willfully, not return to the law, but SIN WILLFULLY there remains NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SIN

These were Christians, so was he implying IF they did NOT sin willfully there would remain a sacrifice for sins?

And if that is what his statement implies, and it's speaking of animal sacrifice, then your saying he is telling them if the do not sin willfully then animal sacrifice remains for their sins.

I know you prob dont get it, this takes a little logic, and implication, but that's exactly what your implying by your explanation. Think about it for a minute.

Your right, I pick and choose passages that continually shut you down. I use the passages along with their context, and keep it in their context, and every time it crushes your false doctrine. All I need in waht the Bible says, not secrete "select groups" that are not mentioned at all. BCV BCV BCV BCV

Nice try, And you just talked about picking and choosing verses, then you take 3 diffent contexts and mix them all up. Lol man, Gal nor Heb are speaking of the same thing as John, have you read them?

You see, unlike you, who loves to pick and chose verses out of scripture which appears to support your works based Gospel/

Click to expand...

I could insult you back but I am not for 2 reasons:

1. I said I was changing the way I speak to people
2. I don't need personal attacks as a distraction to defeat your arguments, I can do it politely.

Those who trust in faith, Trust God, and believe him, and fear him enough not to try and do what your doing to His word. That shows walking after the flesh, no fear of God, and selfishness.

Wow, the very fact your still arguing against grammar rules of Greek and English, only shows how far you are willing to go not to be wrong about anything. You reveal alot about yourself, I bet your never wrong in anything.

I am sorry you dont believe in collective nouns, you need to study English and Greek, that's not an insult.

Your whole argument for another non mentioned 2nd group of people was soley based on the tenses of the words, repent (sing.) and be baptized (plural). This you said PROVED their was 2 groups of people.

YOU coveintly overlook the collective noun "AND EACH OF YOU" which is sing, but describes a plurailty, like a "TEAM"

REPENT FOLLOWS NOUN - "peter said unto THEM" them is plural - so in the greek, repent is plural

BE Baptized follows COLLECTIVE NOUN "each of you be bap..." SINGULAR so baptized, is SING or vise versa

So it's no different from saying in English - the players said, "coach, what shall we do now"?

and coach replied unto them (plural), "drink (plural) and let each of you(Sing) be refreshed (sing)".........Get it?

Wow, are you seriously going to keep arguing this like your right, anyone honest would have already looked into this and said, "oh I guess I missed that" and stopped using that.

This shows you are not concerned with truth, if you were you stop arguing 1+1 = 3, and define 1.

Same here, this is the rules of grammar, this is HOW THE GREEK IS WRITTEN look into it, stop looking foolish arguing against it, it's not like I invented Greek, It doesn't make me right or wrong, its the way its' written dude. wow.

It's all self explanatory, your the one needing to add people where there is no mention of other people, your the one needing to argue against the Greek rules of grammar and the English.

In order to believe your false doctrine, do you know how far one must stretch the meaning of words, the context, and the imagination? Nothing you teach is self explanatory, you lean toward Gnosticism, you must have special or secrete knowledge, because it's definitively not found in scripture.

tribesman · Aug 17, 2012

jandian said:

This scripture does not say that saved souls can have their names blotted out of the book of life. There are some that confuse terms here. A careful study of the term in scripture, including the OT, will show that. To sum it up, everyone has their name written in the book of life. The wicked, however, will have their names blotted out of this book. The just, or saved true believers, have their names written in the book of life and in the Lamb's book, and they will never have their names blotted out of either one. Even though the text says the opposite, some people still assume that this verse says that a saved soul's name can be erased from the book of life.

I see no difficulty in seeing that by way of correction, reproof and rebuke turning away brethren from error and heresy. Because damnable heresies, if continously believed and not repented from, will do just that: damn the soul. Does that mean that the person that God uses to the end of turning erring brethren from such wicked vices "saves" them from death and hide a multitude of sins? Absolutely not! Because that work was already completed for those that are Christ's.

Do you not trust that the work of Christ alone is the only thing that has accomplished this in full? I mean, either a person who reads the Bible extremely unsystematically or has not understood the gospel at all (which is, of course, most serious and fatal) can come up with such an idea that you suggest. I gave several scriptures earlier which all makes it abundantly clear that Christ alone saves unworthy sinners, without any of their assistance in any way, shape or form. With your interpretation of these three scriptures it makes them contradict the other scriptures named - big time.

So, this is my point here: Scripture can not first say that salvation is wholly of God and then later say that it's something that depends upon man. That is impossible. Any "revelation" that says so is not of God.

Again, in the whole context of 1Cor. he's not saying what you suggest. In chapter 1 he's clear on the perseverance of those who are saved. A selective reading however, where one chooses to see something that the text SEEMS TO say, might have questions that lead to such ideas that you've mentioned. That a person's ministry can be very goofed out and failed even to the point of losing its reward should be nothing that is any surprise. However, those who are saved will be kept in their faith, however tiny and shaken it may appear to the outward world, and they will remain saved, for good.

Never means ... never. It means that they never belonged to God.

Which was exactly the reason why I asked as I did in post#97 and 104. What is interesting in this setting is why one believes as one do. One can say that one is taking scripture in context, but it has to proven what context it is if that "context" obviously get the reader into major contradictions - especially on life or death issues. If Paul is practically to be said to be teaching against Paul then something's gotta be wrong somewhere and no amount of claims of "revelations" can make up for it. However, I don't see this as arguing even as the topic is so controversial. You've had a good tone and showed willingness to listen. I wish more users had that attitude.

Yes. I've committed myself to Him, although much could be asked from my walk. However, I believe we see this very differently. I committed myself to Him as a result, or fruit, of Him saving me. He did not save me because I worked up or committed anything that caused Him to save me. When I was lost I was wholly unworthy and dead in sin, at enmity with God etc. It was not any my commitment that made me righteous. All of it is God's work alone and to Him alone be all the glory.

We need the Holy Spirit intervention every hour. Let just not the word "Spirit" be used to justify any thing which is not truly of Him. Amen.

Good luck to ya'!

eternally-gratefull · Aug 17, 2012

feedm3 said:

well you just failed for the following reasons, and again it is because you are not reading, or taking scripture as a whole.

1. Chapter 1. there are people AMONG them who are teaching a false gospel.
2. Again in john. they left us, BUT THEY WERE never of us.. and then telling them, "if you are born of God" meaning even some of them might not be saved.
3. james spoke of people in the church (he even called them You) who had no faith, but were mere believers. If one has no faith, they are NOT SAVED.
4. Paul in romans 8, spoke of people he was talking to in the church of rome, when he said,

" 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 IF Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness"

Meaning that some who Paul wrote to did not have the spirit, and since this is true, they do not belong to God (they are not saved) then told them to search themselves, IF Christ is in you (maybe he is maybe he is not), proving some of them might not be saved, Yet he adressed ALL of the people in the church.
5. We have seen much scriptural proof. Now lets see common sense proof, Lets say your churhc has 1000 members, can you prove ALL of them are saved? are all of them born of God? you could never say that, nor could I. But if I wrote a letter to your church, I WOULD BE ADDRESSING THE SAVED AS WELL AS THE UNSAVED, whoever claims to be a part of your church.
6. Yes, a church is not a building, It is an ekklesia (an assembly or gathering) and NOT EVERYONE who assembles together is saved. I think I have proved this quite well. But I am sure you will ignore all the proof. This is different from the true "body of christ" in which all are saved.

Not so. If I joined an assembly which could make me free, or heard words which could set me free. then soon after departed from that assembly, or discounted those words. I would have been "soon removed" from something whihc could have made me free. Its only your common sense which would think it must mean we actually recieved the power which was offered me, then left it, because you do not want to see what is really happening.

notes.
1. They were removed from HIM who called you to the grace of Christ. it says they were called to, it does not say they received it. so saying they had received anything is an assumption which is not proven!
2. who was it who were calling them to a different gospel? were these not jews who were AMONG them, who were with them, and a part of them who were tryiogn to add works of the law (namely circumcision) to the gospel of grace?

notes.

1. The did not obey the truth, what is the truth? is it not the one Gospel paul said is right, and NOT the others which paul claimed were other gospels?
2. Paul asked them a question. did you recieve the spirit by the works of the law, or faith? hod do you think you recieved the spirit, you who call yourselves saved?
3. Some of them might have been saved and been tempted to return to law, Paul is warning them not to leave, for in doing so they will leave Gods blessings, and why would they want to do this (this is not saying they would lose salvation)
4. Some of them might have THOUGHT they were saved, and were now trying to "perfect their salvation by doing what it is they truely trusted in the first place, the law. This happens all the time, when people come out of legalistic churches because they find grace, but do not stay long, because thier true faith is in their works, Not in the work of Christ, this is NOT SOMETHING NEW.

Question, can any unsaved person recieve the Spirit?

Click to expand...

Question. Can someone be saved who have not obeyed the Gospel?

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth,

These are the same Gal that were warned they would fall from grace. Dont try and say this was "another group" that is not mentioned, it is the same people the letter was written, these are the one who were "bewitched" by false teachers trying to bind the law of Moses.

Click to expand...

No argument here. The argument is that all of them were saved. I think we have proven this is not the case.

So If they were never saved, how did they receive the Spirit?

Click to expand...

no proof all of them did, it is just your assumption they did. I do not base my doctrines on assumptions.

What undignified answer will you try and worm around for this?

Click to expand...

Wow. Where is your humility?

Before you try, it does NOT say "almost" received the Spirit, or "could have" received the Spirit, but only "recieved the spirit", meaning already obtained.

Nowall you can try on this is, "these are not the same secrete group", yet that is easly defeated by simply reading, they were the ones bewitched which shows no change in subjects.

Your PROVED wrong on this one, your choice if you want to keep being stubborn.

Click to expand...

Again, where is your humility? You have not proven anything. other than you make many assumptions with no proof. and ignore many aspects of scripture and common sense which would show your error.

Now I have a question for you.

Paul said these people were FOOLS. why? they were trying to take which God gave them in the spirit, and doing what? trying to PERFECT IT WITH WORKS. so I ask you. Why are you yourself trying to PERFECT what God wants to give you by faith in his word and his gospel with works? for what you are doing is exactly the people of the galation church was being warned of.

do you understand what paul was saying here?

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

the greek word translated different here means different in kind. It means it is changed in whatever way it was changed. in this case, people were trying to add the work of circumcision to grace, sayin gif you are not circumcised you are not saved, thus they added a work (although only 1 work) to the gospel of grace.

7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ

The greek word translated "not another" here is a different from the word another in the first part. It means it is not another of the same kind, in other words, it will not save you, God did not say, i will save these people this way under this gospel. then save those people that way, under that gospel. there is JUST ONE GOSPEL.

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Now we must ask ourselves this question. How can one "perfect" his salvation "in the flesh".

1. In the flesh always means by our own works of righteousness. Paul said to titus, we were nto saved by the works of righteousness we have done (things done in the flesh) but by the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
2. The galations were trying to add 1 work. Paul said later, if you add this one work, you are indepted to the whole law, which means not only do you have to follow all "works" of the law, but you have to fulfil the law by being perfect (zero sin) because Christ's death has become useless to them, who try to be "justified" by law!
3. Lets look at what is being taught today, how is it any different?

1. People add one work (water baptism) to the grace of Christ, yet refuse to see, this work of righteousness which we do, is no different than what the jews in galatia were doing to the goepel of Grace which paul called them to.
2. People add other works (commands) by saying if we are not good enough, God will strip us of his salvation, yet this is just another work of the law. For the law said you shall not murder, you shall not covet. So those who are claiming if we sin to much, we will lose salvation are adding works of the law to grace.

you see this is what they do not Get. Anyone who teaches there is no OSAS (not a licentious OSAS, but there mere fact that once someone is born into the family of God for real, he will never be cast out of Gods family, for God di dnot give us a spirit of fear) or that the perseverance of the saints doctrine is not true., are doing exactly what Paul condemned here. They are taking the gospel of grace, which states we are saved by faith in the spirit, and trying to perfect their salvation with works of the flesh. Which according to paul is another gospel, which WILL NOT SAVE

Red33 · Aug 17, 2012

I was never presented with a gospel that included the possibility of being lost because I was the one who was lost. I was the one in need of being saved and that is why Christ died, to pay for sin and provide a salvation that would cleanse and save me from my sin and keep me white as snow. So let's make sure that we present to those that are lost a gospel that will cleanse them completely and save them forever and reveal to them the one that made that possible through His shed blood.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 17, 2012

What saves us? Its our faith in Jesus Christ and as long as we continue in that faith then we are indeed saved no matter what.

If someone is drowning and a rescue boat comes by and pulls them aboard then they are indeed saved as long as they continue in the rescue boat, but if they jump back out into the water before they reach land, then they are still gonna drown. If we jump back in the water so to speak before we reach heaven, you are still gonna drown.

This is what I believe, I'm not trying to force anyone else to believe it.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 17, 2012

feedm3 said:

This entire arguments are irrelevant because your basing them on a false premise that they were never saved. So as I showed above, they had the Spirit they were saved.

as I said before. i do not make a doctrine based on assumptions. all you did was give some possible senerios, non of which are proven, and claim you are right based on these assumptions. so you might close the door to this argument, but it is still open.

You argument is weak because you want me to believe the letter is addressing two different groups, that it never says exist.

Click to expand...

I have proven with other scripture, and with common sense that this is not true. what you do with that proof is up to you. are your eyes open? or are the closed shut?

Yet lets take a look

1. Driven off course, they were on the course which would lead to salvation by hearing the truth, but they were driven off course by something else. It does not mean they ever ACCEPTED THE TRUTH, only that they were on their way to accepting it.

2. Take none effect. The gospel of truth they heard took no effect, why? they heard it, but they did nt fully trust it, and before they had the chance to trust it, they were tempted to go back to what they really trusted (law) and the gospel which COULD HAVE saved them, became of no effect.

any more bright ideas?

i don;t have to force it. it is there, as proven above and so many times I have lost count.

Thats your assumption. not proven in the least.

its ashame you interpret the greek and english by your own preconcieved ideas, and do not open you rmind and heart to see ALL possible interpretations. Yes, we could interpret them the way you did, that is a possibility. But we can also interpret them in the way I did in the two examples above. Which leaves us at an impass. Since we both could be right, where do we turn? I turn to other aspects of scripture. as I did in these last two posts. You stick to your guns, and sy your right I am wrong, and say it is a shame.

Nope. If I hear the word of truth and are assembling with others who teach it. I have entered the assembly (church) it does not mean I am saved, I have to actually TRUST the words of truth.. Salvation is of faith, not mere belief. If I am there, then decide to return to what i really believe or trust in, or to someo other gospel someone fooled me with. I have "fallen" from that which could have saved me, and landed in an area where I am lost with no hope. Again, this happened all the time in the early church, was spoken of by ALL the apostles. and is sitll happening today, it is NOT SOMETHING NEW

lets look at this.

1. I am climbing a mountain, My goal is to get to the top of the mountain. Before I reach my goal, I fall off the mountain. Now tell me, Since I did nto reach my goal. did my climbing have any affect? it was useless.

2. I am searching for truth, I believe in God, believe I am alienated from God. My goal is to restore that relationship. I hear the word of truth, and start climbing that mountain hoping to reach my goal (restoration of my relationship with God) but before I reach that goal (have complete faith in what I am doing,and recieving it as total truth in my life), something else comes and takes me, and I fall off that mountain. Did I reach the goal? did I get saved?

yes it does. Unmerited or unearned favor. What does it mean? you can not earn it in any way, you do not nor can you ever deserve the thing you are given by grace.

The jews were trying to earn it by the works of the flesh.

you are trying to earn it by your works of the flesh.

see the irony here? You are just like them, but you can't even see it. if you can lose something, You have to earn it to keep it. If it must be earned by any means, even AFTER YOU ARE GIVEN IT "perfect is by works of the flesh" you have rejected it, Thus your gospel if not of graced (unearned favor) but of works, and becomes of no affect to you.

Judas was part of the ASSEMBLY or EKKLESIA (church) of Christ, he walked with him, he talked with him, he did many things with him. Yet Judas was never saved.

you refuse to see this, because your heart will not let you see it. And for that I am saddened.

Again, you refuse to look at the hwole passage, you want to look at one verse (which was not even origionally writen in verse form, so in reality you rpicking one sentance out of a whole paragraph or section which supports your believf and ignoring everything which was said, which would prove you wrong.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Notes.

Paul said IF WE, anytime you see the word "IF" in ANY LANGUAGE, it can always mean the following

1. If - Maybe I will (or can) maybe I wont (or can't)

so lets take this to heart.

paul says "IF (maybe I will, maybe I wont) we go on sinning (living our life as we are not saved at all, meaning we have not shown one change in our lives, but still act as if we had never been saved) Or, Using James as an example, We say we have faith but HAVE NO WORKS)

And then Paul clarifies the "if " statement with a clause as he finishes the discussion.

39 But [k]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [l]preserving of the soul.

Stating emphatically, That He will NOT fulfill the if statement in the question he asked. Which means, with the rules of language, we must interpret the "if" in the following way;

If (but I wont) I continue in willful sin......

No, you pic parts of a passage, And claim you shut me down. And All I have to do is look at the whole passage, and prove you were wrong in your assumptions. Next!!

if there is one thing I have learned in my over 30 years as a Christian it is this. If anyone comes and gives you ONE verse out of a passage and says this proves you wrong. 99.9 percent of the time, it is they who are wrong, because scripture was not written in verses, it was written as books or letters, thus it was never written with the intention of forming a major doctrine with one sentence out of the whole book.

Blah Blah Blah, we are talking about can a person be in a church and not be saved, proven by John. we are talking about Paul, did he say he could continue in sin and lose his salvation? he made it clear. HE CAN NOT, they go hand in hand.

yet you have made a few personal attacks in this very thing I am responding to. I guess you need to try harder.

I have not been given a spirit of fear. but a spirit of adoption whereby I can go to my father and cry out to him.

If you fear god, Which you must do since you think you can forfiet your salvation) you have not been adopted by him.

Can Salvation be lost??

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