Can Salvation be lost??

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 2, 2012

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word WITH JOY; and these have no root, which for a while BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have ESCAPED the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit AGAIN; and the sow that was WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.

Matt777 · Aug 2, 2012

The parable of the sowers and the soils actually supports the POTS position. Only the good soil bears fruit. Note that the ones who fall away have no root. This seems to be saying that those aren't real, because they have no root. What is the good soil? I would submit that it is the elect of God. The elect hear the word, believe, and bear fruit. The soil has been cultivated for righteousness and it brings forth fruit.

The verses in second peter are referring to those who are among the brethren, who have witnessed and experienced the works of the Holy Spirit in their midst, who may have reformed their lifestyles a little bit, and have even made some shallow profession of faith. But they have not fully come to Christ, they are not Christian in the true sense. They are those with no root, who believe for a while and fall away. It would be better for them that they were never exposed to the truth than to have known all about it, resisted it, and having not fully come to Christ, ran back to their outright paganism and sin.

As far as the last verses, if Paul was worried about losing his salvation, then he contradicts himself. He has already said that there is no condemnation for those in Christ and that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. He even said that he had been set apart from his mother's womb, predestined by God. He also said that all predestined will be called, all called will be justified, all justified will be sanctified, and all sanctified will be glorified. I think Paul is referring to rewards and inheritance here. It is possible for us to do a terrible job in our Christian walk, and the result will be all our works being burned up and us not getting much in the way of rewards. Paul explains this more clearly earlier in 1 Corinthians.

"If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
- 1 Corinthians 3:14-15

We need to approach this issue with the whole counsel of scripture, we can't just throw our isolated verses. You can't throw out admonitions to continue in faith and then ignore the words of Christ that proclaim that none of his sheep will ever perish. Nor can I throw out all the verses that make it plain that salvation can't be lost and then ignore the verses that admonish us to continue in faith. The best way to harmonize these two types of verses is to hold to the POTS.

Perseverance is necessary for final salvation, but all true saints of God persevere because we are kept by the power of God through faith in accordance with God's eternal purpose, having been chosen before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 2, 2012

Matt777 said:

I admit, this is not an easy subject. There are verses that seem to support both sides. I just want to make sure though nobody makes the mistake of thinking I believe in a works based salvation. I know thats not true and the thief on the cross pretty much proves it. I just think that when someone allows sin to dominate there life that it can kill the faith that saves them.

So we just have to agree to disagree

God bless

A-Omega · Aug 2, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

You "guess" or the Word of God states??? Rightly dividing scripture is proclaiming the Word of God, not our best guesses. This is why this argument always fails. It relies on human reasoning and subsequently man-made doctrine. How can you know how many sins equal dominance? How many sinful thoughts do you have in a day? Let's use that number and then tell me how many more you'd need for sin to be dominating your life?

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 2, 2012

A-Omega said:

I "guess" is a loose term I always use, you read too much into that but anyway...

The answer is in the very thing you just quoted? Do you just like to argue?

the threshold is when you allow sin to dominate your life so much that it hardens your heart to the point that your faith completely dies. Sin kills the fruit which is your works, and then it begins to kill the tree which is your faith, and once your faith dies, how can you be saved by it?

Ultimately it is your loss of faith that forfeits your salvation, not how many sins you commit in a day. Sin is what will weaken and ultimately kill your faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 2, 2012

Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

A-Omega · Aug 2, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

Where does it say they went to hell??? There are major conclusions being made in this thread that do not have the plain scripture behind and no accompanying interpretation of the text.

Closemyeyes2cU said:

Context, context, context. This chapter is about false prophets. The final verses are about people who are trying to live right, who then fall back to sin because of the deception of these false propehts:

These [FALSE PROPHETS] are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This not talking about a born again believer. This is talking about people who are "religious" in their behavior and may try to emulate Christian behavior but fall back into sin because they are seduced by the lies of false prophets and drawn in by their lusts. The point is that it is better to be unsaved and ignorant of the Gospel than to be an apostate, of which there are many today. And I think this is the running point in the Bible. It's not so much that people are losing salvation. They never had it to begin with. Even though they may know the Gospel. Benny Hinn knows the Gospel. I'm sure Todd Bentley can tell his parishoners the Gospel as he kicks them in the face. That does not mean they are saved. But instead are deep in apostasy.

Closemyeyes2cU said:

The castaways in the ancient olympics were the non-medal winners. It's just a metaphor for saying that we have to keep living a Godly life as Christians so we can receive our crowns and rewards at the Bema seat judgment (the Bema of course being another Olympic game metaphor). This has absolutely nothing to do with losing salvation.

You cannot lose your salvation as a Christian. If you are born again, you were bought with a price. A purchased object cannot return itself! And Jesus is not going to let you go! Believe and be saved eternally! God bless!

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 2, 2012

A-Omega said:

God bless you too my friend. We just have to agree to disagree. If I'm wrong I pray God reveals it to me and if you are wrong I pray he reveals it to you as well.

RedTent · Aug 2, 2012

So well said. I don't think any scripture says we receive salvation through our works, NT or OT. Our "work" instructions comes to us after salvaton. But I think that there is a big difference between "OOps, I shouldn’t have taken that it really didn’t belong to me please forgive me”, and being a person who is a thief.
1 Corinthians 6:10
no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.

A-Omega · Aug 2, 2012

Closemyeyes2cU said:

This passage is about not showing preferential treatment in the church. It is very, very often used to try and prove works-based salvation but that is not what the context is at all. James is saying "hey, you guys are treating all the rich folk in the church like VIPs and not paying the poor people any mind! And you call yourselves Christians? Your actions have to back up the shingle over the church door." He is bringing up the examples of Abraham and Rahab to showed they lived their faith out. The whole source issue of the chapter is the mistreatement of the poor. It's not a test of salvation. It's a test of right Christian living once you are already a member of the church.

And no I don't just like to argue. Who in the Bible had their faith "killed"? Where is this concept explained? If you are going to declare that a Christian can actually lose their salvation you should be readily able to identify this in scripture with some right dividing. I don't think folks are appreciating the gravity of what they are proclaiming is "clear Bible doctrine." If you're going to say something like this, you should really be able to strongly back it up.

feedm3 · Aug 3, 2012

sanglina said:

Many here as you see say "no it cannot be lost".
Or when verses are shown that says a Christian can lose his place as God's child, they say "they were never saved to begin with", because most do not like to believe that after becoming a Christian they can have the possibility of not making it to heaven.
But nevertheless, the Bible says what it says, and I will show you why I believe if we choose to return to living in sin, we can be lost just as those who do not believe:

Here are my reasons:
1. Going back to the law of Moses is a sin, and the Gal church (Christians) were warned by doing so they would "fall from grace".

Scripture support:
Gal: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Note:

Many will say this was written to those who were not yet Christian, or that falling from grace does not mean loss of salvation.

First, this was written to Chritans, the letter is addressed to the church, and in order to be the church you must be a Christan.

Second, falling from grace means you no more have the effect of grace, Paul told them "Christ has become no effect" to them, and that he "profits them nothing", meaning the effect of his blood cleansing them, was no more. He did not cast them out, they left him by returning to the law of Moses, by doing so, they deny Jesus is the Messiah, the Law only pointed to the Messiah, part of keeping the law was to accept Christ, so it is a sin not to so.

But does this only mean they could fall by the sin of going back to the law? Or does this apply to returning to any sin (unrepentant)? All sin is equal, and sin separates us from God - Isa 59:1-2.

2. The Hebrews were told the Same as the Galation church:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Christ becomes of NO EFFECT)
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, where
with he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Note:

These also were Christians being warned of "willful sin", we must repent. They were not people under the law of moses as some here will say, because they are being compared and contrasted with those under the law, because they already had "come to the knowledge of truth", these are Christians being warned.

Willful sin is living in sin, no repentance, in which any Chritian can choose to do, yet not without eternal consequences unless they repent (Stop sinning and confess them).

3. The Church at Epesus was warned if they did not repent, Christ would remove their "candlestick" (meaning cut them off)
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Note:

the "candlestick" represented them as a church of the Lord (see Rev 1:20 "the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.), he said if the did not "repent" HE would "remove it, meaning they would no longer be His church, they were "fallen" as in accordance with Gal, "fallen from grace".

4. Simon the Sorcer was a Christian, yet he sinned and had a choice, "repent" or stay in a condition that "was not right with God", and he was told he would "perished", no saved person will ever "perish".

Acts 8:14 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 REPENT AND PRAY THAT THE THOUGHT OF THY HEART BE FORGIVEN

Simon "Believed and was baptized", no doubt this made him a Christian. Yet his sin separated him from God, he was told to repent, if he did we do not know. But this shows a Christian that chooses to sin, and refuses to repent, will "perish", because he has "fallen from grace", and "sinned willfully".

There are many more scriptures that warn Christians not to sin. NOt because of earthly chastisement, but because we can have eternal consequences as Christi will become of "no effect" to us.

Many here on this site hate what I have just said. They attack anyone who teaches what the Bible says, they will twist words to mean what they want, redefine them, and try their hardest to convince that we even living in sin, will have no chance of hell.

They do this very cunningly, by shifting the blame on God if we end up in hell instead of the fault lying on us.
They do this with such statements as "God is not an Indian giver, he does not give and the take salvation, or things like "he will in no way cast us out", and so on.
This is just an evil tactic to make it seem as they trust God more, by believing he will save us all, and for those of us who believe that we can perish just as Simon, the Gal, and Hebrews, then we don't trust God's work and we trust in ourselves and not God.

Again, this is cunning, just as Satan is cunning. The truth, we cast ourselves out, not him, HE Gives, we take, then we throw it away. Dont be fooled, this is only a fraction of the warnings in scripture, yet I know this is already getting long.

I hope you get your answer, just listen to scripture, and not those who want to tickle your ears because they love to believe what they want instead of what the Bible says. We are more accountable to God because we know him.

IF we truly trust God, then we believe what he says, it is not enough to believe IN him, we must also believe him, his warnings, as well as his promises. So to answer our question, it is dangerous, and a snare of Satan through the teachings of men to believe we cannot lose (throw away, reject) salvation. Done twist words and change meanings of them, just read and hear God. Good luck

GreenNnice · Aug 3, 2012

Bravo, feedbuddy, straight Truth, sharp as can be, double-edged !

Yes, we can 'depart from the faith,' the Word of God does not lie. Satan is real, and, he has his demons branching off, like dendrites off a nerve, bloodthirsty and itching to get to burn any soul they can, Christian and, non, it does not matter to 'them.'

Do NOT believe the great lie that you can NOT be unsaved. You can. It was YOUR CHOICE to choose Christ, it IS YOUR CHOICE TO UNchoose Christ.

Build your faith daily, let the Lord lead your life so you can BUILD CONFIDENCE in His Love for you and His plan for your life.

Praise be to God every day on the hour, on the minute, whenever the Spirit leads, praise Him, thank Him, for ALL in your life, tgere is much there-daily- evenIF you don't see it. God does things ALWAYS,in our life and, when ever you feel the Enemy mindfully attacking you, remember God is greater than Satan. Put Satan behind thee (you) , in the name of Jesus

A-Omega · Aug 3, 2012

Again, I ask. Name one person in the Bible who lost their salvation?

Red33 · Aug 3, 2012

Would any of you that believe in this manner want to receive from God a salvation that can be lost or forfeited because of your actions or a disposition of the heart that might forsake God in some way? Is this the kind of salvation that was offered through the death, burial and RESURRECTION of Christ? Would you want to know and have fellowship with the Saviour that would offer a conditional salvation to those that trust Him and call upon His name to be saved? Is this the kind of salvation described as the eternal redemption that was obtained for us by Christ in (Heb 9:12). Is this what is means to be saved to the uttermost when we come to God by faith through Christ in (Heb 7:25)?

If the blood of Christ has put away our sins, would God have to bring our sins back that he has already put away and impute them unto us if we lost or forfeited our salvation? Wouldn't that make God's salvation predicated or conditioned on our behavior and not on God's ability to keep us through His own power through faith unto salvation (Rom 1:16, 1Pt 1:5)? If I stop walking by faith and in God's light and become carnal and love this present world like Demas did in (2Tim 4:10), why is that associated with losing or forfeiting salvation? Many believers have trusted God for salvation through Christ and have been cleansed from sin but do not take up their cross in discipleship. Do you consider these to have lost or forfeited their salvation?

Solomon had problems with the worship of other Gods as a backslidden king but was never forsaken by God and came to be used by God to write some very inspired scriptures that many of us have profited from greatly. I think that most of you would have claimed that Solomon lost God's righteousness along the way. How does a believer lose or forfeit God's righteousness when it was imputed unto him when he first believed? No man can undo imputed righteousness or any of God's divine imputations because they are based upon the integrity, character and nature of God by promise through faith and not upon any goodness or worthiness on our part.

I think that many of you make this judgment based upon what you observe in the life and flesh of the person and not upon the trustworthiness of God and His promises of faith. We are to know no man after the flesh but only Jesus Christ and Him crucified. There were so many problems within the church at Corinth that many of you would have had nothing to do with them and would have written them off. Paul did not do that, but determined to know nothing among them except Christ and Him crucified. Try that the next time you want to judge another of having lost their salvation and are you sure you want to be that kind of judge anyways? That's a tough road to haul when you are dealing with your own sin nature and with weaknesses, appetites, desires and lusts of your own flesh and with the pride of life that many have gotten caught up with in this present evil world.

Closemyeyes2cU · Aug 3, 2012

A-Omega said:

Exactly, if your life doesn't reflect the faith that you claim to have, then your faith is dead. If you ever see a tree that doesn't produce any fruit at all wouldn't you naturally presume that the tree is dead? Why is it any different with faith?

starfield · Aug 3, 2012

A-Omega said:

Judas Iscariot is a prime example. He was called out as an apostle by Jesus and given the power to heal, raise the dead, and preach the gospel. I'm not convinced that he wasn't saved to begin.
Even in the beginning the devil was preaching eternal security because he wants believers to fall for his craftiness.
God said " But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thatthoueatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17).
Satan said "And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4). He made Eve know that she was eternally safe and that eating the fruit will not remove her from God's presence.

Red33 · Aug 3, 2012

God created and formed us in the womb (Mk 10:6, Is 44:2, Jer 1:5, Ps 139:13-16), can we just walk away and forfeit what we are as creatures fearfully ans wonderfully formed in the womb and born of a woman? Of course not! Neither can we walk away or forfeit the new creature that He has made us to be (2Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15) through the new birth (Jn 3:7, 1Pt 1:23). You can't walk away or forfeit being a new creature in Christ which took place the moment we believed. We are new creatures in Christ not just spiritually but literally and we will put on our new glorified bodies when we shall see Him (1Jn 3:2, 1Cor 15:52-54, Rom 8:23).

It is amazing to me that some people have this philosophy about believing unto God's righteousness and salvation as if God puts us on some kind of probationary period to see if we are really believers or not before He ever imputes His righteousness or redeems us and justifies us with His blood. Instead of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, they add another step, a probationary period to see if that person who has believed is going to bear fruit and cease from sinning so much. If that evidence is not produced then they conclude that salvation has no part with that person, but they never consider the work that God may be doing secretly in the heart (Ps 51:6, Is 48:1-7, 1Pt 3:4 1Kgs 6:7, 2Cor 9:1, Heb 9:11, Phil 1:6).

psychomom · Aug 3, 2012

I just wanted to thank each of you who have taken part in this discussion.
I've learned a lot, and had much clarified through the Word of Truth.

And I feel I ought to lend a word of warning, that it's difficult enough to know our own hearts, let alone the hearts of others.
The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds. Jeremiah 17:9,10

To me that whole chapter of Jeremiah speaks of the salvation of God, right down to not being able to carry a "load" or any "work" through the gates on The Sabbath. Thoughts?

starfield · Aug 3, 2012

Matt777 said:

Yes, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

1 Cor 3:12-17
12- Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13- Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. The fire represents hardships that will come to test your faith and the foundation. Apostle Paul laid the foundation for the early church.
14- If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15- If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Sometimes your work for God may suffer loss perhaps by losing followers (i.e. Judas Iscariot, Demas) but you will be saved.
16- Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17- If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

tribesman · Aug 3, 2012

Matt777 said:

The parable of the sowers and the soils actually supports the POTS position. Only the good soil bears fruit. Note that the ones who fall away have no root. This seems to be saying that those aren't real, because they have no root. What is the good soil? I would submit that it is the elect of God. The elect hear the word, believe, and bear fruit. The soil has been cultivated for righteousness and it brings forth fruit.

The verses in second peter are referring to those who are among the brethren, who have witnessed and experienced the works of the Holy Spirit in their midst, who may have reformed their lifestyles a little bit, and have even made some shallow profession of faith. But they have not fully come to Christ, they are not Christian in the true sense. They are those with no root, who believe for a while and fall away. It would be better for them that they were never exposed to the truth than to have known all about it, resisted it, and having not fully come to Christ, ran back to their outright paganism and sin.

As far as the last verses, if Paul was worried about losing his salvation, then he contradicts himself. He has already said that there is no condemnation for those in Christ and that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. He even said that he had been set apart from his mother's womb, predestined by God. He also said that all predestined will be called, all called will be justified, all justified will be sanctified, and all sanctified will be glorified. I think Paul is referring to rewards and inheritance here. It is possible for us to do a terrible job in our Christian walk, and the result will be all our works being burned up and us not getting much in the way of rewards. Paul explains this more clearly earlier in 1 Corinthians.

"If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
- 1 Corinthians 3:14-15

We need to approach this issue with the whole counsel of scripture, we can't just throw our isolated verses. You can't throw out admonitions to continue in faith and then ignore the words of Christ that proclaim that none of his sheep will ever perish. Nor can I throw out all the verses that make it plain that salvation can't be lost and then ignore the verses that admonish us to continue in faith. The best way to harmonize these two types of verses is to hold to the POTS.

Perseverance is necessary for final salvation, but all true saints of God persevere because we are kept by the power of God through faith in accordance with God's eternal purpose, having been chosen before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Spot on, bro. Especially the last paragraph. This is what is needed to be said here. I am boggled that so many people think that man can go in and out of salvation at his mere will or ups and downs for the day. One thinks too low of salvation if one does not believe in God's ability to KEEP His children in faith and have them in the fold - until the end.

Can Salvation be lost??

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