Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[Inquisitor]

What I'm saying is that God has many attributes. He is a jealous God. He is a God who hates some people before they're even born. He is a God who Loves Himself, and He is a God who loves those in His Son. God hasn't revealed much about Himself, so He remains a mystery.

We only know those things He revealed to us, He has hidden the rest from us.

It's extremely dangerous to add our view in order fill in those blanks which He has deliberately hidden from us.

God doesn't kill billions of men women and children and babies in the womb, because He loves them. It would utterly ridiculous to suggest that He does. My understanding is He does it because He hates them.

There is another matter you need to address promptly.

When the scripture states that God for example is a jealous God.

That does not mean that the word, 'jealous', when describing God. Has the same meaning when
applied to one of us. There is a vast difference in these attributes between God and us.

God is perfectly holy, God's love is perfect, and so is His jealousy.

You may be grossly under estimating the attributes of Jesus Christ.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Scripture please...

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We know He is speaking of ALL people because His Word teaches it's His will that ALL people be saved even though not all get saved which is not His fault or His will.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


This is how we know calvinism is false doctrine and calvinists are to be ignored!

He is a God who hates some people before they're even born.

That's a lie from the pits of hell!

 

[Charlie_2024]

Yes, he said that, too, let's just leave it at that ok I don't answer to you, nor you to me. You can't hold me to a false narrative, and I have presented the word of God as it is for all to see. If you don't agree, fine . I will not lose any sleep or need a safe space because you don't agree with me. I won't suggest you are a false teacher, or teaching false things because You don't agree You have the right to be wrong.

All good, I'm glad to hear that you can easily dismiss all the faults I pointed out. And suggest that we agree to disagree.

My understanding of the gospel is, that salvation was predetermined before the world was created. I don't expect those who believe that salvation is by naming it and claiming it, will ever agree with what the Bible clearly teaches.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I see who and whoever which "we" are you talking about? in the context of John 3 Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus

and Telling him how one must be born again.

It is Jesus who said 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The who, we, and whoever are those in the WORLD!

Jesus did not say Elect Jesus said "Whoever" in Greek " pas" whoever means: "WHOEVER."

1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

View attachment 261842

None of that answers who Jesus was referring to. If you're suggesting that Jesus was referring to the whole world, then that makes Him a liar because He promised to cast he majority of the world into hell.

Unless a man be born again, also excludes the majority because we know the majority is already condemned to hell.

So the question remains, who are these "whosoever" and "world" and "we" people. There can only be one true answer, and the Bible makes it perfectly clear but the world struggles to figure it out.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Scripture please...

You can find God's hatred and love for those who weren't even born yet, in many scriptures. I'll jus mention one here.

Roman 9:10-14
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

If you read the whole story of Esau and Jacob in Genesis 25 you will find God hated Esau while He was still in His mothers womb.

You can read many other Scriptures which prove that God chose those He would save before He created the world. Likewise we can read that He also chose those who can never be saved to demonstrate His Sovereignty and justice. So He created evil in order to show His goodness in destroying it.

If He didn't create evil then He couldn't demonstrate His goodness either, so it was necessary.

 

[Charlie_2024]

The problem is you don't have Jesus in the Equation. Yes, God is Jealous, But I said I did not want any to Parish.
God is not unjust in what He does; however, He can also change His mind by His word and actions. We see that in the very word of God. You are placing God in your box.

God never changes His mind about anything. He is perfect and He is always the same. Anyone who accuses Him of changing anything, is suggesting that He's like a man who found fault in Himself and decided to correct it. That's not God at all

 

[Obedience]

The Gospel of Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

The truth of the kingdom of heaven is not unacceptable by unbelievers.But because of the die-hards,They refused the truth that folks should be saved.

You have portrayed God as a God without mercy.Is god such a terrible god?actually not.What is terrible is sin.The result of sin is death.

The gospel is to give folks freedom from sin.Instead of holding the Gospel and imprisoning folks in sin and hell.Tell them that most of you are hopeless.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Your understanding of the revelation of the Christ is appalling.

Everything we can possibly know about God was fully realized in Jesus Christ.

Jesus spent His life forgiving, healing, teaching, and loving others.

Jesus ultimately had one key mission objective while visiting us. To sacrifice Himself for us.
Jesus was not like us, Jesus was perfectly sinless, Jesus was the author of life.
The creator suffered and gave His life to redeem His creation.

The one attribute of God that is beyond any debate in Christianity is that unconditional love. That God
demonstrated for His creation. Nothing compares to that divine unconditional love.

We do not have that divine unconditional love for others. We have a different primary attribute.

We sacrificed our creator on a cross, how do we measure up on that scale of love?

God is in control of everything across eternity, He knows what He is doing.

The world does not know or understand unconditional love!

I've looked long and hard through the whole Bible to find a single shred of evidence to support this amazing theory about God's unconditional love for His creation.

I have found absolutely ZERO evidence to support this unbiblical theory. What I actually found was the complete opposite, I found that God only loves Himself and those in His Son.

There is no evidence to suggest that He loves anyone one else, He especially hates those who die in their sin. So much so that He casts them into hell to be tormented for all eternity.

 

[Obedience]

I've looked long and hard through the whole Bible to find a single shred of evidence to support this amazing theory about God's unconditional love for His creation.

I have found absolutely ZERO evidence to support this unbiblical theory. What I actually found was the complete opposite, I found that God only loves Himself and those in His Son.

There is no evidence to suggest that He loves anyone one else, He especially hates those who die in their sin. So much so that He casts them into hell to be tormented for all eternity.

You speak it only because you hate sinners.You haven't learned how to deal with it in faith.
Your simple logical way of thinking is just All wicked people must die in hell.This is not faith at all.
You just want God to fix everything for you.

 

[Charlie_2024]

There is another matter you need to address promptly.

When the scripture states that God for example is a jealous God.

That does not mean that the word, 'jealous', when describing God. Has the same meaning when
applied to one of us. There is a vast difference in these attributes between God and us.

God is perfectly holy, God's love is perfect, and so is His jealousy.

You may be grossly under estimating the attributes of Jesus Christ.

OK, but you haven't explained what the difference is between God's jealousy and our jealousy is.

It's all very well to bring up this matter and say you don't agree with my application. But it's not good enough to simply say God's jealousy and hatred are not like ours, and then fail to provide any Biblical reason.

A biblical reason must be supported by Biblical doctrine and not by personal emotions or feelings toward what God has said.

 

[Obedience]

OK, but you haven't explained what the difference is between God's jealousy and our jealousy is.

It's all very well to bring up this matter and say you don't agree with my application. But it's not good enough to simply say God's jealousy and hatred are not like ours, and then fail to provide any Biblical reason.

A biblical reason must be supported by Biblical doctrine and not by personal emotions or feelings toward what God has said.

Isaiah
55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Inquisitor]

Isaiah
55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Saved me the trouble of quoting verses.

 

[Charlie_2024]

The Gospel of Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

The truth of the kingdom of heaven is not unacceptable by unbelievers.But because of the die-hards,They refused the truth that folks should be saved.

You have portrayed God as a God without mercy.Is god such a terrible god?actually not.What is terrible is sin.The result of sin is death.

The gospel is to give folks freedom from sin.Instead of holding the Gospel and imprisoning folks in sin and hell.Tell them that most of you are hopeless.

I'm only sharing what the Bible teaches about God. I never claimed that God is lacking in mercy. I actually said what God Himself said about His hatred of sin and rebellion. I don't want to give people false hope by telling them that God loves them no matter how wickedly they live their lives.

God loves His own children, He doesn't love the Devils children. He would be Holy and just if He loved the evildoers. He has made it abundantly clear, that they will suffer eternal punishment in hell. He doesn't show them any mercy at all.

All of us are hopeless and dead in our sins and trespasses, we can't do anything to save ourselves. Only God saves people out of that hopeless state, no kind words or philosophies, or good works will convince someone who is dead in their sin to repent.

When Jesus preached the gospel, many came and said it's impossible to fulfill the criteria for salvation. The impossible things they referred to were things like being born again, go through the eye of a needle and many more impossible requirements. He always said these things are impossible for men to do, but the good news is all things are possible with God.

He gave us more than enough examples to prove that salvation is of the Lord, it's not by the works of fallen men. Since our best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight. Can you imaging how filthy the not so good or wicked works are in His sight.

 

[Inquisitor]

I've looked long and hard through the whole Bible to find a single shred of evidence to support this amazing theory about God's unconditional love for His creation.

I have found absolutely ZERO evidence to support this unbiblical theory. What I actually found was the complete opposite, I found that God only loves Himself and those in His Son.

There is no evidence to suggest that He loves anyone one else, He especially hates those who die in their sin. So much so that He casts them into hell to be tormented for all eternity.

Does God love everyone?

Matthew 5:43-48
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven.

If God is asking us to love our enemies, how much more does God love our enemies.

John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You speak it only because you hate sinners.You haven't learned how to deal with it in faith.
Your simple logical way of thinking is just All wicked people must die in hell.This is not faith at all.
You just want God to fix everything for you.

I don't hate anyone, that's Gods privilege only. He said vengeance is mine, so I'll leave hating and punishment to God.

As a member of the Reformed Church, we hold to the Bible doctrine of Gods Sovereignty over all creation. This means that God predestinated everything that happened from the begging to the end of time, to happen as He decreed it to happen.

All the other Churches teach the Arminian theology, where the gospel is interpreted as men having the choice to receive salvation by believing the gospel. And those who reject it as foolishness are condemned to hell. So that doctrine amounts to salvation being offered and the choice to receive it or reject it, is up to the individual.

We still go door knocking and sharing the gospel with as many as we can, because we don't know who the elect of God are. Only He knows that

 

[Inquisitor]

All good, I'm glad to hear that you can easily dismiss all the faults I pointed out. And suggest that we agree to disagree.

My understanding of the gospel is, that salvation was predetermined before the world was created. I don't expect those who believe that salvation is by naming it and claiming it, will ever agree with what the Bible clearly teaches.

Not sure why your introducing a theology based on God's sovereignty. The emphasis in the New Testament is grace and love.

1 John 4:7
God Is Love
Beloved, let’s love one another; for love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John mentions the word 'love', 65 times in two letters (gospel and 1 John).

Predestined to salvation you say?

Regardless of the opinion of any theology the text qualifies our salvation (1 John 4:8).

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't hate anyone, that's Gods privilege only. He said vengeance is mine, so I'll leave hating and punishment to God.

As a member of the Reformed Church, we hold to the Bible doctrine of Gods Sovereignty over all creation. This means that God predestinated everything that happened from the begging to the end of time, to happen as He decreed it to happen.

All the other Churches teach the Arminian theology, where the gospel is interpreted as men having the choice to receive salvation by believing the gospel. And those who reject it as foolishness are condemned to hell. So that doctrine amounts to salvation being offered and the choice to receive it or reject it, is up to the individual.

We still go door knocking and sharing the gospel with as many as we can, because we don't know who the elect of God are. Only He knows that

There are not two camps in Christianity, Calvinism and Arminianism.

The scripture clearly states that God acts with absolute love towards His creation.

God is love.

Of course God is sovereign that goes without saying.

The higher calling is God gave His life for you and that matters above everything else.

That's how we know who God really is.

Jesus Christ poured His love into our hearts.

 

[Obedience]

I don't hate anyone, that's Gods privilege only. He said vengeance is mine, so I'll leave hating and punishment to God.

As a member of the Reformed Church, we hold to the Bible doctrine of Gods Sovereignty over all creation. This means that God predestinated everything that happened from the begging to the end of time, to happen as He decreed it to happen.

All the other Churches teach the Arminian theology, where the gospel is interpreted as men having the choice to receive salvation by believing the gospel. And those who reject it as foolishness are condemned to hell. So that doctrine amounts to salvation being offered and the choice to receive it or reject it, is up to the individual.

We still go door knocking and sharing the gospel with as many as we can, because we don't know who the elect of God are. Only He knows that

The gospel we preach is redemption, not punishment.in other words,Punishment expresses those who betray the truth after knowing it.The main purpose of the gospel is to convey God's redemption and salvation to mankind.Instead of intimidating people, God wants to punish mankind.

 

[CS1]

All good, I'm glad to hear that you can easily dismiss all the faults I pointed out. And suggest that we agree to disagree.

My understanding of the gospel is, that salvation was predetermined before the world was created. I don't expect those who believe that salvation is by naming it and claiming it, will ever agree with what the Bible clearly teaches.

that to is false narrative.

I don't believe salvation is name it and claim it. it is the work of the Holy Spirit who bring godlily sorrow so one can SEE their need for Christ and free to repent and receive freely as a gift.

 

[CS1]

None of that answers who Jesus was referring to. If you're suggesting that Jesus was referring to the whole world, then that makes Him a liar because He promised to cast he majority of the world into hell.

Unless a man be born again, also excludes the majority because we know the majority is already condemned to hell.

So the question remains, who are these "whosoever" and "world" and "we" people. There can only be one true answer, and the Bible makes it perfectly clear but the world struggles to figure it out.

No, he did not, LOL. He said he wishes NONE World Parish. LOL