Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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E
typical.
You can not counter my argument, so you just try to disqualify me.
Nice try, but you just totaly destroyed your tesitimony..
If you can not show me where I erred in IS 48, all you do is prove that at the least. You have no argument against me..
So time to move on.. You have no credibility here.. You speak against the catholic church, But you just used there own argument... Thus you are just like them.
ps, a degree does not mean crap.. There are different bible colleges which teach different things, So if a bible degree allows you to be qualified, then all the "college educated" teachers which teach differing views on trinitarian view would be qualifed..
Sorry, but no.
You can not counter my argument, so you just try to disqualify me.
Nice try, but you just totaly destroyed your tesitimony..
If you can not show me where I erred in IS 48, all you do is prove that at the least. You have no argument against me..
So time to move on.. You have no credibility here.. You speak against the catholic church, But you just used there own argument... Thus you are just like them.
ps, a degree does not mean crap.. There are different bible colleges which teach different things, So if a bible degree allows you to be qualified, then all the "college educated" teachers which teach differing views on trinitarian view would be qualifed..
Sorry, but no.
Here are the following questions?
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn.
"
And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So quasar, if the Son is not co-equal or co-eternal with His Father then please explain John 5:17,18, "But He/Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
And regarding you statement, "God makes it clear in the OT He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself." Ok fine, then explain Micah 5:2, "But as for you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, FROM YOU ONE WILL GO FORTH FOR ME TO BE RULER IN ISRAEL; HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY." Who's goings forth are from the days of eternity in this verse quasar? What if I told you that His goings forth have also been in the OT?
You also quoted Isaiah 43:10, but what about vs11? "I, even I, and the Lord, AND THERE IS NO SAVIOR BESIDES ME." If your going to follow strict rules of interpretation then you should take it to its logical conclusion. God says there is no Savior besides Him but yet Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there HAS BEEN BORN FOR YOU A SAVIOR, WHO IS CHIRST THE LORD."
You then brought up Isaiah 44:6 where it says, "I am the first and the last, And there is no God besides Me." Who is the first and last at Revelation 1:17,18? "And when I say Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand on me, saying, Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 1:7,8, "Behold He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so, Amen. Now look at vs8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Who is this quasar? Which person was dead and is alive, the first and the last and the one that is coming? Is it Jesus Christ or God the Father?
It's hard to string a bunch of verses together to prove a point but it's a different story to tie them together or reconcile them so they are in harmony with each other. I'm just trying to help and I'm not trying to make you look foolish. Even at your age you should at least be flexable and keep an open mind, in short no one is to old to learn.
"And btw, these questions are based on many of the verses you posted which as I said, I have read your post. Just take them one at a time. I don't want to overwhelm you.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Here's only a partial listing of churches considered to me "Armstrongian" (yeah, I just made up that word ).
Offshoots & Splinter Groups of Worldwide Church of God Church of God Splinter
).Offshoots & Splinter Groups of Worldwide Church of God Church of God Splinter
The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."
First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.
He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.
So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?
1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship
The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.
I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God? Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"
Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)
How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.
Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.
Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.
Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.
He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.
So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?
1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship
The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.
I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God?
Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?" Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)
How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.
Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.
Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.
Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Actually the purpose of my thread was to show how and why the trinity is not only true but it is Biblical. By explaining the nature of the one God is the whole point of the trinity. In other words, if one examines the Bible thoroughly, you should be able to quickly discover that there three and only three "persons" who are identified as God. The following is a list of how the one God is identified.
1-His names
2-His titles
3-His unique actions
4-His attributes
5-His worship
So here is the question" Is the Father identified in the Bible by any one or combination of the five means I mentioned? The same question goes for Jesus Christ the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Care to take a crack at it cs1? In fact, let me put it another way. On what basis do you believe the trinity is true? Now, if you don't believe it is true then on what basis is it not true?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
1-His names
2-His titles
3-His unique actions
4-His attributes
5-His worship
So here is the question" Is the Father identified in the Bible by any one or combination of the five means I mentioned? The same question goes for Jesus Christ the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Care to take a crack at it cs1? In fact, let me put it another way. On what basis do you believe the trinity is true? Now, if you don't believe it is true then on what basis is it not true?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
