Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[fredoheaven]

Quasar 92 said: "... let me see you prove the Trinity from the Bible! Review my post #341, which took years of study and research to develop, together with the following:

My response: I have already read your post 341 and the Bible has proved Godhead based on what you don’t like+ other’s more and you wanted to make our Lord Jesus and the scriptures without authority. You fail to acknowledge it, that is why

Quasar92 said: What about the assertions trinitarians use as a mainstay of their belief, of 1 Jn.5:7 and Mt.28:19? The fact of the matter is, they cannot be blamed for believing what has been either an insertion, or an alteration of the original text by the author, yet appears in most of the English translations of our Bibles.

My response: You made your assertions false. What you have is a “science falsely so called”, a Masteral degree for nought…sorry to made this one since you are just in circular motion, pretentious, ever learning 2 Timothy 3:7 says ” Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Quassar 92 said: Let's have a brief look at the history behind these two verses and learn the truth about them. The following is through the courtesy of SDA Global.

My response: Just what from sources of truth you are referring to? Is scripture not enough? 2 Timothy 3:16. Your source of information lacks ingenuity!

 

[fredoheaven]

Quasar92 you said: But various authorities mention a work entitled Discrepancies in the Gospels, and another work entitled The Concluding Sections of the Gospels

My response: Well this is according to man’s opinion. God’s word is the STANDARD! SOLA SCRIPTURA! (For Eusebius see below if you like)

Eusebius of Caesarea | Christian History

Quasar 92 you said: According to Conybeare:...(so and so)

My response: Still not impressed with this kind of researched you made, nowhere can be validated. Sorry you failed! Something for your review at least it has all the references well intact!

history - Was the text of Matthew 28:19 changed? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange

For one example Eusebius being quoted in one of his writing about the TRINITY!

Theopania 4:8 . After his resurrection from the dead, all of them,-- being together as they had been commanded,--went to Galilee, as He had said to them. But, when they saw Him, some worshipped Him, but others doubted. But He drew near to them, spoke with them, and said: "All power (both) in heaven and earth, is given to me of my Father. Go ye and make Disciples of all nations, and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold! I am with you always even to the end of the world." Observe now, in these things, the consideration and caution evinced by the Disciples: (viz.) that they did not all worship Him when they saw Him. Some of them indeed did this faithfully and devotedly, but others refrained for the present.

Eusebius of Caesarea: Theophania - Book 4

 

[valiant]

one passage with the word "he" describing the HS and a mountain of passages describing the HS as an aspect of the Father. the HS was given as a gift, when was Jesus or the Father given as a gift? when was the HS ever prayed to or worshiped? not one example of that in the bible. so with all that it makes me believe we are probably not understanding John 16 12 correctly when we make the HS an additional person that can not be confirmed anywhere else in the bible. Jesus and Paul both teach us we need 3 witnesses to establish something, where are the other 2 examples?

John 14.16-17, 26; 15.26. That makes four witnesses. So your case is blown away. Give me an example in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is seen merely as an aspect the Father.

Prayer is directed to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The three members of the triune God are all involved in prayer. Each persona has His part to play.

 

[valiant]

And your meaningless opinion is without a shred of Scriptural proof of a single false statement I made, in post #341, that comes directly from the Bible. That reveals who and what God is, together with the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, that can be taught from the Bible. As opposed to the Trinity, which cannot be taught from the Bible nor did Jesus or His disciples ever teach it. Mind your own glass house you are so careless to be judging others of!


Quasar92

In the old testament you follow the old myth that Proverbs 1-8 is talking about Jesus when in fact it is talking about a 'woman' representing wisdom. So you are deceiving from the start.

In the New Testament you do not need to make a false statement. Nor does Satan. You merely examine one side of the truth. You ignore that fact that the Father was greater than He for a time because He emptied Himself (Phil 2.5-11). You totally ignore the following:

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26


Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)


John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19


And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28

 

[prove-all]

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58


is this verse saying Jesus is [the great] I Am.

or that Jesus is saying I am, meaning [I was] before Abraham was[as the word]

 

[prove-all]

Jesus is both the “root” and the “offspring” of David (Revelation 22:16).
Since He was the “root,” the throne was His before David was born.
David merely sat upon the Eternal’s throne.

Secondly, since Jesus was David’s lawful fleshly Son, this same throne shall
once more become His right by inheritance, continuing David’s dynasty.

 

[Carolyn345]

In my studies of the Bible and the Trinity , even in Wikipedia the fact that God's name is Yahweh or Jehovah as stated at Psalm 83:18 adds proof that the Trinity is not true. Yahweh is stated to be "the most high over all the earth" giving the personal name to God introduced to Moses thousands of years ago and used over 6000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures alone.
It means " He causes to become".

 

[bluto]

it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.

2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below]

That the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus is documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. Your above rhetoric does nothing to disprove a single Scriptural fact recorded in post #341. You still have not absorbed what is taught in that post, from things you have written in the above. It proves the Trinity is false, bluto, which the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught. I was a Trinitarian for 45 years and tired of trying to explain it to others from the Bible. The works recorded in #341 is a study and research of many years to find the Biblical description of God and the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus. This thread is not where I began discussing the anomalies of the Trinity! And you better prove my reasoning is errant verses that of your own!


Quasar92

Come on quasar, your not thinking? You said, " I was a Trinitarian for 45 years and tired of trying to explain it to others from the Bible." What an "ignoble" reason to reject the Trinity on the basis that you cannot explain it to others, from the Bible no less. Did not God ask Job to explain how the stars are set in the sky and how the worlds were made etc?

Because you can't explain something does not mean it's true? And here you are with all these years of experience with Bible certificates, degees, member of various churches and following a man that wrote 20 some books and who was a Trinitarian and yet it after 45 years it finally occured to you that, "I don't get it?" I don't get it either and I could not explain the mechanics of it but I sure can prove it is true using the Bible. Like I keep saying and the Bible keeps saying, "There are three and only three persons in the whole Bible who are identified AS GOD in all of the ways that the Bible identifies God. By His names, titles, unique attributes (or nature), and His unique actions."

That's it quasar! And btw, the syllogism I gave you is rock solid and you cannot refute it because the "premises" are true therfore the conclusion is true. You better wake up!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

The Trinitarian baptismal verbiage has the strongest transmission throughout time and throughout the various geographical locales/text-types, and is found in the writings of some very important historical figures, including Eusebius himself (more particularly in Contra Marcellum I.1.9, I.1.36; Theologia III. 5.22; Theophania 4.8; Letter of Eusebius of Cæsarea to the people of his Diocese), and more importantly, his predecessors which pre-date the earliest known copy of Matthew 28.19 as it is found in Codex Vaticanus. Not only is this verbiage contained through the various text-types, but there are also no alternative readings found in the Byzantine, Alexandrian, or Western traditions, and this is absolutely critical.

The point is this: Certain readings may be found within manuscripts that are associated with particular locations, and not with others. This leads to the recognition that readings supported by witnesses from a wide range of geographical locations are to be favored over those that are only supported by manuscripts from one geographical region. For example, all other things being equal, a reading supported by an Alexandrian mss and a Western mss is theoretically stronger than two or even three Alexandrian mss and no Western mss. This is because wide geographic attestation for a reading indicates more likelihood that it reflects an earlier common tradition and is closer to the original and less of a likelihood that the reading originated due to a copyist’s error (or God for-bid, a blatant change) that circulated in a given region as peculiar to that region. Consistency across a broad range of locales increases the probability that the agreement among manuscripts goes back to the original. This is why every major critical apparatus (Nestle-Aland 27/28, UBSGNT, CNTTS, Tischendorf) includes the verbiage.

That said, I have compiled a list of patristic references as seen in my next post.

God is the Holy Spirit AND Father - ONE person, not TWO:

There is no rationalizing away the fact that the term FATHER, is God's TITLE, as it is with every man who produces children.

[None of the text was intended to be underlined, but I cannot remove it with the controls available here.]

The Lord Jesus Christ stated very clearly about the essence of the Deity, "God is Spirit." (Jn 4:24) Bearing this in mind and at the same time remembering that there is only "One Spirit" (Eph 4:4), we shall come to the important truth that the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Divine Person.


The one and only Spirit is called "the Spirit of God" in the Old Testament (Gen. 1:1; Ex. 31:3, 35:31; Num. 24:2; 1 Sam. 11:6; Job 27:3, 33:4; Ezk. 11:4), and also in the New Testament (Mt. 3:16,12:28; Rom. 8:9,14, 15:19; 1 Cor. 2:41-,14, 3:16, 6:11, 7:40, 12:3; 2 Cor. 3:3).

The one Spirit is called the "Holy Spirit" in the Old Testament (Psm. 51:11; Isa. 63:10-11); and of course He is known as the "Holy Spirit" ("Holy Ghost" in the King James Version) in the New Testament. (Mt. 1:18,19; Lk. 1:1 5; Jn. 14:26; 20:22; Acts 1:8; Rom. 5:5; 1 Cor. 2:16; Heb. 2:4; 1 Pet. 1:12)


The Spirit is called "the Holy Spirit of God" (Eph. 4:30) and also "the Spirit of your Father" (Mt. 10:20). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. (Jn 15:26) Since there is only one Holy Spirit of God, who is the Father of us all; there can be no question about the Father and the Holy Spirit being the one and the same Divine Person. (Eph. 4:4-6; Jn 4:23-24)
During the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, this one and only Holy Spirit of God entered the womb of the virgin Mary to conceive the Child Jesus (Mt. 1:20-25; Lk. 1:30-35). The Lord Jesus has no human father. His only Father is God who is the Holy Spirit. If the Father and the Holy Spirit were two separate and distinct Persons as taught by some theologians, then Jesus would have two Fathers, which cannot be true (Eph. 4:6). The truth is, the Father and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Divine Person who is in the Lord Jesus Christ. This would harmonize with His statement: "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me." (Jn. 14:10-11)


The Lord Jesus Christ taught very clearly that the Holy Spirit is given by the Father. (Lk. 11:13; Jn 14:16,26) He had asked His disciples to wait for the "Promise of My Father" which is the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Lk. 24:49; Acts 1:4-8) During the Old Testament time God had promised to pour out His Spirit on His people. (Prov. 1:23; Isa. 44:3; Ezk. 36:26; Joel 2:28-29) After the Lord Jesus Christ's death, resurrection, ascension and glorification, the Holy Spirit was indeed poured out on the Disciples who had waited on Him (Jn 7:38-39, 14:28, 16:7; Acts 2:33). Surely those Disciples had received only one Spirit from the Father, who is also the Holy Spirit Himself. (Acts 2:4,16-18,33,38; Eph. 4:30)

The Lord Jesus Christ explained, "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (Jn 14:20) This statement also harmonizes with the prayer of our Lord's, "That they all may be one; as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, . . . that they may be one, just as We are one; . . . I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one." (Jn. 17:21-23)


The historical development of the Trinity:


The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-surprising-origins-of-the-trinity-doctrine

https://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/bible-study-aid/is-god-a-trinity?s=1


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

I'm still waiting for any of you to prove the Biblical teaching of the Trinity. Post #341 proves it does not, by the Scriptures themselves.


Quasar92

 

[jaybird88]

John 14.16-17, 26; 15.26. That makes four witnesses. So your case is blown away. Give me an example in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is seen merely as an aspect the Father.

Prayer is directed to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The three members of the triune God are all involved in prayer. Each persona has His part to play.

so where is an example of the Holy spirit being prayed to if its a separate person? to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit is just a prayer to the Father no different than it always was.

how did people pray before the HS was revealed?

 

[valiant]

In my studies of the Bible and the Trinity , even in Wikipedia the fact that God's name is Yahweh or Jehovah as stated at Psalm 83:18 adds proof that the Trinity is not true. Yahweh is stated to be "the most high over all the earth" giving the personal name to God introduced to Moses thousands of years ago and used over 6000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures alone.
It means " He causes to become".

The Name YHWH was 'the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit'. ( e.g. John 12.38-41)
;

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

John 14.16-17, 26; 15.26. That makes four witnesses. So your case is blown away. Give me an example in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is seen merely as an aspect the Father.

Prayer is directed to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The three members of the triune God are all involved in prayer. Each persona has His part to play.

so where is an example of the Holy spirit being prayed to if its a separate person? to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit is just a prayer to the Father no different than it always was.

how did people pray before the HS was revealed?

They prayed by the Holy Spirit. They just didn't know it.

 

[valiant]

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58


is this verse saying Jesus is [the great] I Am.

or that Jesus is saying I am, meaning [I was] before Abraham was[as the word]

Had He meant what you suggest He would have said, before Abraham was, I was. Saying I AM He was claiming existing for eternity.

 

[valiant]

so where is an example of the Holy spirit being prayed to if its a separate person? to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit is just a prayer to the Father no different than it always was.

I do not pray to the Holy Spirit but I believe specifically He is a separate person in the Triune God.

 

[valiant]

Mat 28:19
'Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.'

Quasar doesn't like this verse because it proves him WRONG. He tries to make out that it is in error on the basis of a liberal scholar, Conybeare, whose view was rejected by his contemporaries.

He ignores the fact that ALL TEXTS in the first 1000 years include it as it is. He overlooks the fact that it was cited by the Didache of the 12 Apostles and by Tertullian over 100 years BEFORE the Council of Nicea. Critically it is textually cast iron.

He is CLUTCHING at STRAWS to save his false doctrine. He follows the one who was called the Father of liars.

 

[bluto]

I'm still waiting for any of you to prove the Biblical teaching of the Trinity. Post #341 proves it does not, by the Scriptures themselves.


Quasar92

Well quasar, I've proved that the Trinity is taught in the Bible by the following:

You said this quasar, "God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy." This does "NOT" means that God the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. And when you look at John 4:24 the verse is teaching that God is a spiritual being and we are to worship Him in a spiritual way. This verse does not mean that God the Father is the Holy Spirit because the Father is Holy.

Secondly, if we were to follow your line of "errant" reasoning I could say, "Jesus Christ identified Himself as the bread of life, does that mean He is a loaf of bread quasar? In your mind you think you have verses to support your position but the truth is your taking those verses out of context to support your wrong teaching. As well, you still have not addressed my post to you except to say "look up your post #blah blah blah." That will not cut it, so here is what I posted and please address the very specific issues I raised.

Ok quasar, I have not forgotten about you. And your right, my argument is a prime case of a syllogism because it cannot be refuted. The Bible does identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as God. Not "a gods," not "three gods," and surely not three made up pagan gods, but the ONE GOD. And if you could refute the syllogism you would have done it but instead your asking me "why" questions which I will be happy to address.

First of all your question? "Then explain to me why the Bible teaches God is the Holy Spirit and His title is Father? One person!" Your question is an "assumption" because the Bible does not teach the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. If the Father is the Holy Spirit (and you said He is on the basis that God the Father is Holy) then there would be no need for the Bible to distinguish the Holy Spirit from the Father. One would only see the same continued metaphorical applications being used all the time. God the Father is never identified in the Bible as the person of the Holy Spirit.

Here are some examples of what I mean. Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was formless and vlid, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and THE SPIRIT of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Notice the rest of the verses say, "Then God" said or did this or that. Then at Acts 5:3,4, "But Peter said, "Ananias why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?" Why does it not just say, "why did Satan fill your heart to lie to God?" And at vs4, "While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? And after it was sold was it not under your control? You have not lied to men but to God." In other words, the Holy Spirit is idneitifed as God but not as God the Father as you errantly teach.

Or anothe example! John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." So here you have God the Father and God the Son who will make their abode with them and no mention of the Holy Spirit until vs26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

So quasar, if the Father is the Holy Spirit why would have to send Himself? Why are God the Father and the Holy Spirit distinguished? I can you many examples but hopefully you get the point. Now to your second question? It is true that God the Son and God the Father are two distinct persons. I'm not argueing that point. What I'm telling you is the fact that the Son preexisted His incarnation. Not as "separate" persons as you said but "distinct" persons. There is a difference between the meaning of the two words.

You yourself admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son but the rub comes from you saying "Jesus became human at His incarnation." How does that preclude Jesus Christ who is God from preexisting His incarnation. What if I was to prove to you that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is the preincarnate Jesus Christ? But for now let me address your last point. "All men who produce children of their own, have the title of father! With that having been said, why don't Trinitarians make the claim that Jesus and the Son are TWO persons instead of just one, as they so they do Almighty God, the Holy Spirit, and the Father?"

I could not agree with you more quasar. It is a universal law that all sons bear the same nature and their father. Since the Father of Jelsus Christ is God the Father then Jesus' nature is that of Deity. As well, since Mary is the mother of Jesus He has a second nature which is "human being." This is one of the reasons Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." Now, you cannot split up "natures" because Jesus Christ is one person, not two. In fact, He is the only one that has two natures as I explained.

At John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." That word "with" means that the Word/Logos is "with" somebody else other than Himself and He is identified as God. At verse 14 that same person who is the
Word/Jesus Christ became flesh/human. One persons with two natures. This is not hard to understand because this is what the Bible teaches.

How in the world do you explain or reconcile that the Bible makes it perfectly clear that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other? And if the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit as you say then there would be no need to distinguish Him from the Holy Spirit as the Bible does in numerous places.

I've also proved it in my very first post that started this whole thread. You have not addressed the content of what I presented, instead you keep telling everybody to read what you have posted as if that makes what you say "so." I also gave you a logical syllogism in which you said is wrong, even though you cannot prove it to be wrong. In short, instead of at least considering the possibility you may be wrong your resting on the laurels of your age and discounting all the scholars you posted, including your mentor and others including people on this forum who have confronted you and were all Trinitarians, for a reason. And it has nothing to do with the traditions of men, councils or the RCC.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[CS1]

The following is what one member on these forums stated, "FYI, I was a Trinitatian for 45 years unbtil I got tired of trying to support it when neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples taught it. Supposing you show me where they do."

First of all we all know the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. But that proves nothing because "monotheism, omnipresent, omnicient, omnipotent, the word "Bible" is not in there either. However, the concept of these words are in the Bible. Now, I have read a lot of what quasar has written and there are just too many flaws in what he says because he takes verses out of context to prove his errant theology.

He says Jesus never pre-existed His incarnation and one of the verses he uses is Proverbs 8:22. I will get back to this later. But first I want to say the doctrine of the trinity is not an "assumption" as quasar seems to think. It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in tellin gus that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God and the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.

So, how does the Bible identify the persons of the Trinity?

1) His names.
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
5) His worship

The Trinity does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible. It is a doctrine that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible. It is also drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible.

I always get a kick out of people (who don't think things through) when they say, "Show me one verse where Jesus claimed to be God?" As if there a verse like that in the Bible it would convice them that Jesus is God? Or like quasar stated in his long list of particulars, "If Jesus is God did He rasie Himself?" Or an oldie but a goody, "If Jesus is God why didn't He know the time of His own return?"

Now, getting back to the identity issue. His names! Who is called by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly but usually both. His titles! What are the recognized TITLES? (Lord, king, savior, first and last etc.)
His unique attributes/characteristic! (Omnipresence, omnipotence, eternality, omniciense etc.)

How about His unique actions! (Creation, origin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation etc.) How about His worship? Who is given honor, reverence and position due to God ALONE? In fact, when Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself at John 20:28 that Jesus Christ was "his Lord and God" this was in the vain of the highest form of worship there can be.

Let me be clear that I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. I am saying each person of the tgrinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above.

Another thing I noticed in reading what quasar stated was that he mixes terms thinking they mean the same thing. He equates the term "being" with the term "persons." They do not mean the same thing. He also used the word "separate" by saying the persons of the trinity are three separate persons. No they are not. They are distinct persons and the word "separate" and "distinct" do not mean the same thing.

Now getting back to quasar and him quoting Proverbs 8:22 to prove Jesus Christ was created. First of all the subject of Proverbs 8 is wisdon. And wisdom is identified as a "she" in the chapter. Secondly, the very wisdomj by which God acts is divne, it's always with Him. In other words, there was never a time when God was without wisdom. When Jesus Christ is called the wisdom of God at 1 Corithians 1:24 it mean in His humanity the human expression of Jesus Christ is Gods wisdom in action. Remember, Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. So where am I going wrong? Anybody?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Very interesting post but I must say nobody can fully Comprehend the Divine Nature of God. we cannot comprehend but we can apprehend the concept. The Word Trinity is not in the Bible I think that has been well stated in the past post. some where around 2-159 or so.

Only Pride on both sides of the issue who try to say they know Fully. As a Christian we are to approach the God head with humility and reverence. I believe the bible greatly supports the concept of what is known as the"Trinity". I would be in error to say I fully comprehend the Godhead , I don't. But no one does. Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic.

example : a mother is her self a person; yet she can have a child in her womb and the DNA of the father all at the same time. the mother, the father, and the child. hard to understand how this is possible but it is true none the less.
If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead. But our minds can never fully understand all of our Great God and HIS Divine nature. only Pride thinks it can. .

 

[FreeNChrist]

Very interesting post but I must say nobody can fully Comprehend the Divine Nature of God. we cannot comprehend but we can apprehend the concept. The Word Trinity is not in the Bible I think that has been well stated in the past post. some where around 2-159 or so.

Only Pride on both sides of the issue who try to say they know Fully. As a Christian we are to approach the God head with humility and reverence. I believe the bible greatly supports the concept of what is known as the"Trinity". I would be in error to say I fully comprehend the Godhead , I don't. But no one does. Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic.

example : a mother is her self a person; yet she can have a child in her womb and the DNA of the father all at the same time. the mother, the father, and the child. hard to understand how this is possible but it is true none the less.
If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead. But our minds can never fully understand all of our Great God and HIS Divine nature. only Pride thinks it can. .

What do you mean by, " Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be" ??

 

[valiant]

Very interesting post but I must say nobody can fully Comprehend the Divine Nature of God. we cannot comprehend but we can apprehend the concept. The Word Trinity is not in the Bible I think that has been well stated in the past post. some where around 2-159 or so.

Only Pride on both sides of the issue who try to say they know Fully. As a Christian we are to approach the God head with humility and reverence. I believe the bible greatly supports the concept of what is known as the"Trinity". I would be in error to say I fully comprehend the Godhead , I don't. But no one does. Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic.

example : a mother is her self a person; yet she can have a child in her womb and the DNA of the father all at the same time. the mother, the father, and the child. hard to understand how this is possible but it is true none the less.
If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead. But our minds can never fully understand all of our Great God and HIS Divine nature. only Pride thinks it can. .

But we CAN comprehend the words of Jesus when He made clear that He was God and co-equal with the Father

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26


Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)


John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19


And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28