Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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Your impassioned accusations are the mark of a person who's hands are tied from the inability to field a single Scripturally based argument against those that, refute the Trinitarian views you have been deceived into believing!
The doctrine of the Trinity is a man made, politically motivated cult and heresy, the Bible, Jesus or His disciples never taught. Mt.28:19 is an alteration from the original text and 1 Jn.5:7 is a 12th century Latin additive. Which is not true of the Biblically supported description of God and origin of Jesus I previously posted in 471 and 964. Repeated in a different way below:
WHAT IS GOD ? WHO IS THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ?
Why do trinitarians insist God, whom the Scriptures declare to be the Holy Spirit AND Father, to be two separate persons, when they are one and the same person? Yet, also insist Jesus and the Son are one person! With that kind of logic, as the Scriptures below clearly reveal, God is the Holy Spirit and the Father, one and the same person that trinitarians insist are two, of their triune formula.
The following reasons are why the Trinity is false and cannot be proven by the Scriptures!
1. God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Jn.4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
2.God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
3. The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was brought forth by the Father [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures] in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began, the firstborn over all creation, according to Col.1:15. Fulfilling Ps.2:7, Acts 13:33 and Heb.1:5. Therefore, as the above Scriptures prove, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus.
4. According to the Scriptures above, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus, according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35, Ps.2:7, Acts 13:33 and Heb.1:5.
5. As recorded in 3. above, the Scriptures describe God to be the Holy Spirit AND Father, ONE person, NOT TWO! As documented in 4. above, the Father and the Son are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES, NOT ONE! Confirmed in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.Why is the trinitarian view false? From the beginning, the formula for their views come from belief the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit formulate a monogamous Godhead. However, the Scriptures fully refute any such theory and describe God to be the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus.
The term Father, is nothing more than His title. The very same one all men receive when they produce children of their own. It never constitutes making two persons out of the individual who is called father, as is the case with our one and only God the Holy Spirit, who produced His one and only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ by the virgin Mary.
Many other major sources that deny the Bible teaches a Trinity!
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/is-the-trinity-biblical
Shocking Trinitarian admissions: Shocking Admissions by Joel Hemphill
As posted one more time, you remain refuted, popeye!
Quasar92
Come on quasar, you still have not been able to refute the meaning of "firstborn" which I posted and you have not addressed, why? Now your a big time expert on the Hebrew alphabet? 
And yet again quasar, more contradictions from you. You said this: "Show me where I have denied the deity of Jesus Christ in anything I have posted!" Then in this post you say this: "With your understanding of the Scriptures, you contradict many OT passages such as Isa.45:5. The Scriptures are crystal clear as to when Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son, whether you are able to accept it or not!"
Isaiah 45:5, "I am the Lord and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." So who does this refer quasar? Is it God the Father or is it God the Son? And when exactly did the Son of God/God the Son become God the Son? And speaking of "sons" let me "school" you on the term "Firsborn" which you think it "ONLY" means first one born. There's a secondary meaning that obviously your not aware of even though it has been brought to your attention.
The word "firsborn" as it is used of Jesus Christ can be found in five places in the New Testament. Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, 18, Revelation 1:5 and Hebrews 1:6. In this specific places the word does not mean first one born or first one created. It refers "RANK." In other words, Jesus is first in rank in the whole creations. He is first in rank in the inhabited world, first rank among the resurrected, and first in rank among the glorified. None is comparable to Him.
Remember what I told you what John the Baptist stated at John 1:15? Which btw you did not answer or address the question of how is it that John the Baptist new that Jesus Christ existed before him? Here's the verse, "John bore witness of Him/Jesus, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, He who comes after me, HAS A HIGHER RANK THAN I, for (or why quasar?) HE EXISTED BEFORE ME."
The meaning of firstborn can also be illustrated from the Old Testament. In ancient Israel the eldest son was given preferential treatment. He assumed more responsibility than the others, and was rewarded with honor and given two shares in the family inheritance instead of a single share that each of his younger brothers received. BUT, sometimes the eldest son fell out of favor with his father and was "REPLACED" in the favored position by a younger brother.
Here are some examples. Joseph, replaced Reuben at Genesis 4:3 and 1 Chronicles 5:1,2. Ephraim, who replaced Manasseh at Genesis 48:13-20. Jacob replaced Esau at Genesis 27 and Solomon replace Adonijah at 1 Kings 1:5-53. In all os these cases the younger became the firstborn, i.e., he attained to FIRST IN RANK.
This means that the word "firstborn" does not always refer to the first one born by birth. So when the word is applied to Jesus Christ it does not mean first one born at birth but that He rightly deserves preferential share, honor, inheritance and glory etc. So for example when the Bible says Jesus Christ is the "firstborn" from the dead it does not mean He was the first one brought to life because Lazarus was dead before Jesus but Jesus was the firstborn from the dead in a permannet way.
So quasar, can you please for a change address these issues with some "cogent" answers instead of referring me to post #473 or whatever instead?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And yet again quasar, more contradictions from you. You said this: "Show me where I have denied the deity of Jesus Christ in anything I have posted!" Then in this post you say this: "With your understanding of the Scriptures, you contradict many OT passages such as Isa.45:5. The Scriptures are crystal clear as to when Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son, whether you are able to accept it or not!"
Isaiah 45:5, "I am the Lord and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." So who does this refer quasar? Is it God the Father or is it God the Son? And when exactly did the Son of God/God the Son become God the Son? And speaking of "sons" let me "school" you on the term "Firsborn" which you think it "ONLY" means first one born. There's a secondary meaning that obviously your not aware of even though it has been brought to your attention.
The word "firsborn" as it is used of Jesus Christ can be found in five places in the New Testament. Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, 18, Revelation 1:5 and Hebrews 1:6. In this specific places the word does not mean first one born or first one created. It refers "RANK." In other words, Jesus is first in rank in the whole creations. He is first in rank in the inhabited world, first rank among the resurrected, and first in rank among the glorified. None is comparable to Him.
Remember what I told you what John the Baptist stated at John 1:15? Which btw you did not answer or address the question of how is it that John the Baptist new that Jesus Christ existed before him? Here's the verse, "John bore witness of Him/Jesus, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, He who comes after me, HAS A HIGHER RANK THAN I, for (or why quasar?) HE EXISTED BEFORE ME."
The meaning of firstborn can also be illustrated from the Old Testament. In ancient Israel the eldest son was given preferential treatment. He assumed more responsibility than the others, and was rewarded with honor and given two shares in the family inheritance instead of a single share that each of his younger brothers received. BUT, sometimes the eldest son fell out of favor with his father and was "REPLACED" in the favored position by a younger brother.
Here are some examples. Joseph, replaced Reuben at Genesis 4:3 and 1 Chronicles 5:1,2. Ephraim, who replaced Manasseh at Genesis 48:13-20. Jacob replaced Esau at Genesis 27 and Solomon replace Adonijah at 1 Kings 1:5-53. In all os these cases the younger became the firstborn, i.e., he attained to FIRST IN RANK.
This means that the word "firstborn" does not always refer to the first one born by birth. So when the word is applied to Jesus Christ it does not mean first one born at birth but that He rightly deserves preferential share, honor, inheritance and glory etc. So for example when the Bible says Jesus Christ is the "firstborn" from the dead it does not mean He was the first one brought to life because Lazarus was dead before Jesus but Jesus was the firstborn from the dead in a permannet way.
So quasar, can you please for a change address these issues with some "cogent" answers instead of referring me to post #473 or whatever instead?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Scriptural proof YHWH is ONE God in the Old Testament!
"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
- "Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
- "Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
- "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
- "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
- "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
- "For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
- "Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
- "You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
- "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
- "You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
- "For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
- "You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
- "Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
- "'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
- "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
- "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
- "Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
- "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
- "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
Identifying the Biblical term Father as His title. Like all men are when they produce children:
A revelation of how easy it is for the Scriptures to identify God as being the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible, documented below.
1. 2 Sam.7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be my son"
2. 1 Chr.17:13: "I will be his Father and he will be my son..."
3. Ps.2:7: "He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
4. Acts 13:33: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.
2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT and FATHER as recorded in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. Which refutes the doctrine of the Trinity, together with exposing Mt.28:19 as an alteration and 1 Jn.5:7 as an additive.
Your rationalizing the use of the term FIRSTBORN, in Col.1:15, contradicts the intended interpretation of it, as documented in the following:
Definition of FIRSTBORN from the Dictionary: The pre-incarnate Jesus was/is first in everything.
adjective 1. first in the order of birth; eldest.
noun 2. a firstborn child.
3. a first result or product.
Take special note of the following: " In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,[SUP]2 [/SUP]but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
KJV TRANSLATION OF PR.8:22-25:
Pr.8:22-25 (KJV): "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; When there were no fountains abounding with water." 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth:"
Pr.8:22-25 (NIV): "22BROUGHT ME FORTHc232425 I WAS GIVEN BIRTH
OTHER PLACES WHERE WHERE THE HEBREW WORD POSSESS IS USED:
Gen.14:19: "And he blessed him, and said, Blessed are you Abram of the most high God, POSSESSOR of heaven and earth:" And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the POSSESSOR of heaven and earth," KJV. 22: "And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth," KJV
SAME TWO VERSES IN THE NIV:
"and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, CREATOR of heaven and earth."
"Abram said to the king of Sodom, With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the Lord, God Most High, CREATOR of heaven and earth"
As can be seen, bluto, all of the above can easily be taught directly frm the Bible. Which you will never be ble t do with the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus not His disciples ever taught!
Quasar92
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Hi Bluto,
Quote from Post 992:
Tell me what "Godhead" means.
Quote: What does the word "Godhead" mean at Acts 17:29, "For as much then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the "Godhead" is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."
Response: --- Speaking of believers, it says, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God," --- and in Acts17:29 Paul was speaking to the people of Athens, who worshipped many gods perhaps made of stone and overlaid, or decorated, with gold or silver. They even had a statue TO THE UNKNOWN GOD, (verse 23) --- I guess that was in case they missed one. --- And Paul took the occasion to preach to them about this 'unknown God.' --- so he said, "As much as we (believers) are the offspring of God, we know that the Godhead cannot be like an image of gold or silver, made by man.
Quote: And how about Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are mde, even his eternal power and "Godhead; so they are without excuse.
Response: --- Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
--- God had revealed Himself in many ways in the OT, but when people doubt, or turn away, the mind becomes clouded, so people do not see or understand Spiritual things. This is what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
As the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Scriptures, then those who have the Holy Spirit within can be enlightened by asking, as James said in James 1:
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Now, what does the Godhead mean?
It is written plainly in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
--- (I know, you will say that this is not in some manuscripts, but you will find it in either the text, or in a footnote. --- Also, it was there before the verses were numbered, as those who question it, try to split verses 7 and 8.)
In the King James it says, "There are three that 'BEAR RECORD' in heaven" (and it gives a cross reference to Isaiah 48:16 where it says in the King James:
16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."
In the Douay Rheims it says, "And there are three who 'GIVE TESTIMONY' in heaven."
In the New King James it says, "For there are three that 'BEAR WITNESS' in heaven," and it gives a cross reference to John 1:1.
--- So it refers to --- The Father, --- the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:1 it mentions two of them in the first line:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God. --- And we know the Holy Spirit was there from the beginning, as in Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the 'Spirit of God' was hovering over the face of the waters. (Beginning life in the sea.)
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light." --- The Word (Logos, the creative power of God) brought light on the scene.
--- Notice the words, BEAR RECORD, GIVE TESTIMONY, and BEAR WITNESS, --- that they speak of being the 'go between' for two partiess. --- They bear witness of the ONE who is above them
There are different 'levels of authority' in the heavenlies, which may be understand better from this geometric figure:
Take a piece of heavy paper or light cardboard and cut a 4 inch square.
Now folt it across the center from corner to corner both ways. which gives 4 triangles.
Cut on one fold from the corner to the center. --- overlap that side so you have a three sided figure with the center raised.
Got that? --- Now glue or tape it and look at it. --- The raised center apex represents Almighty God, who is unknowable to us.
The three corners represent the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
These are the "Manifestations" of almighty God, that represent Him to us.
--- This describes the Godhead. --- (Take some time and think about it.)
We will see what your reaction is to this, and then, if things are still civil, we will examine where both Christ and Jesus appear, and on what level of authority.
Quote from Post 992:
Tell me what "Godhead" means.
Quote: What does the word "Godhead" mean at Acts 17:29, "For as much then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the "Godhead" is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."
Response: --- Speaking of believers, it says, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God," --- and in Acts17:29 Paul was speaking to the people of Athens, who worshipped many gods perhaps made of stone and overlaid, or decorated, with gold or silver. They even had a statue TO THE UNKNOWN GOD, (verse 23) --- I guess that was in case they missed one. --- And Paul took the occasion to preach to them about this 'unknown God.' --- so he said, "As much as we (believers) are the offspring of God, we know that the Godhead cannot be like an image of gold or silver, made by man.
Quote: And how about Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are mde, even his eternal power and "Godhead; so they are without excuse.
Response: --- Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
--- God had revealed Himself in many ways in the OT, but when people doubt, or turn away, the mind becomes clouded, so people do not see or understand Spiritual things. This is what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
As the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Scriptures, then those who have the Holy Spirit within can be enlightened by asking, as James said in James 1:
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Now, what does the Godhead mean?
It is written plainly in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
--- (I know, you will say that this is not in some manuscripts, but you will find it in either the text, or in a footnote. --- Also, it was there before the verses were numbered, as those who question it, try to split verses 7 and 8.)
In the King James it says, "There are three that 'BEAR RECORD' in heaven" (and it gives a cross reference to Isaiah 48:16 where it says in the King James:
16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."
In the Douay Rheims it says, "And there are three who 'GIVE TESTIMONY' in heaven."
In the New King James it says, "For there are three that 'BEAR WITNESS' in heaven," and it gives a cross reference to John 1:1.
--- So it refers to --- The Father, --- the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit.
In John 1:1 it mentions two of them in the first line:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God. --- And we know the Holy Spirit was there from the beginning, as in Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the 'Spirit of God' was hovering over the face of the waters. (Beginning life in the sea.)
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light." --- The Word (Logos, the creative power of God) brought light on the scene.
--- Notice the words, BEAR RECORD, GIVE TESTIMONY, and BEAR WITNESS, --- that they speak of being the 'go between' for two partiess. --- They bear witness of the ONE who is above them
There are different 'levels of authority' in the heavenlies, which may be understand better from this geometric figure:
Take a piece of heavy paper or light cardboard and cut a 4 inch square.
Now folt it across the center from corner to corner both ways. which gives 4 triangles.
Cut on one fold from the corner to the center. --- overlap that side so you have a three sided figure with the center raised.
Got that? --- Now glue or tape it and look at it. --- The raised center apex represents Almighty God, who is unknowable to us.
The three corners represent the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
These are the "Manifestations" of almighty God, that represent Him to us.
--- This describes the Godhead. --- (Take some time and think about it.)
We will see what your reaction is to this, and then, if things are still civil, we will examine where both Christ and Jesus appear, and on what level of authority.
As I said, there are different Levels of Authority in the heavenlies:
Almighty God is 'unknowable' to us because He is the First Cause, and above everything that came from Him.
--- The Holy Spirit of God had to be 'with Him' from the Beginning, because there is no life without the Spirit of Life --- However, the Holy Spirit is in every level of existence, so is not exclusive to one level of Authority, --- but always represents Life.
--- The 'Manifestation' of the Father as the 'Designer and Architect' under Almighty God is evident, and there is a partial description given in James 1:
17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
So the Father represents Almighty God, as stable, unchanging, and expressing the strongest emotion of God for His World, --- which is Love.
The 'Word,' through whom all things were created, and who represents Light, --- would be considered on a 'second generation' level because He is called Son, --- from a previous creation, which is evidenced in the Book of Job, when Job was questioning God about his sufferings, and God answers Job with questions, in Job 38:
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 (Where were you) When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
--- This is further explained in Scriptures but we won't go into that now, --- However, the Word (Logos), came from these Sons of God. --- So the Word was a heavenly Son who was loved by the Father, and was always subject to Him.
This is the 'only begotten God' or 'only begotten Son' in John 1:
18 (NKJ) "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,
--- [f] (God) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
18 (NASB) "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
18 (NIV) "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
--- We can discuss more on this later.
Almighty God is 'unknowable' to us because He is the First Cause, and above everything that came from Him.
--- The Holy Spirit of God had to be 'with Him' from the Beginning, because there is no life without the Spirit of Life --- However, the Holy Spirit is in every level of existence, so is not exclusive to one level of Authority, --- but always represents Life.
--- The 'Manifestation' of the Father as the 'Designer and Architect' under Almighty God is evident, and there is a partial description given in James 1:
17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
So the Father represents Almighty God, as stable, unchanging, and expressing the strongest emotion of God for His World, --- which is Love.
The 'Word,' through whom all things were created, and who represents Light, --- would be considered on a 'second generation' level because He is called Son, --- from a previous creation, which is evidenced in the Book of Job, when Job was questioning God about his sufferings, and God answers Job with questions, in Job 38:
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 (Where were you) When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
--- This is further explained in Scriptures but we won't go into that now, --- However, the Word (Logos), came from these Sons of God. --- So the Word was a heavenly Son who was loved by the Father, and was always subject to Him.
This is the 'only begotten God' or 'only begotten Son' in John 1:
18 (NKJ) "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,
--- [f] (God) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
18 (NASB) "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
18 (NIV) "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
--- We can discuss more on this later.
Hoho! this is equivalent to saying Jesus is not the Christ which is the summation of Gnosticism. That's clumsy logic where one can say Jesus is a Greek word and Jehovah is transliteration of the Hebrew tetragrammaton and therefore Jesus is not Jehovah!
Perhaps your letter "J" is incorrect documentation of facts to begin with...
Perhaps your letter "J" is incorrect documentation of facts to begin with...
Hi Quasar92,
Quote from 1004:
Those who attempt to call Jesus God in the Old Testament, contradict and break the above Scriptures, from which there are many more! Except for prophecy that calls Jesus God, such as Ps.45:6-7, that is repeated in Heb.1:8-9.
Response: --- I know that you have given many Scriptures to say Jesus is not God, and here you say, "Except for prophecies that call Jesus God such as Ps 45:6-7, that is repeated in Hebrews 1:8-9.
--- I had spoken about this once before and you might have missed it. --- The problem is that every time SON is mentioned, everyone, including yourself, believes that it has to be Jesus. --- But you are ignoring the Scripture in John 1:3 that says "All things were made through the Word, who was also called the 'Only Begotten Son' in 1:18
In fact, I just wrote this in Post 1010
So the Word (Logos) was a heavenly Son who was loved by the Father, and was always subject to Him.
This is the 'only begotten God' or 'only begotten Son' in John 1:
18 (NKJ) "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [
f] (God) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
18 (NASB) "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
18 (NIV) "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Notice that "All things were made through the Word," --- so you can't bounce around and say "All things were made by somebody else" can you?
In Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, --- (This 'Son of His Love' is the Only begotten Son that is in the bosom of the Father, 1:18, because it says again,
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. --- (Because the Word is also called the Son, through whom all things were made, --- then it is the Word that was "The firstborn over all creation." --- He had to be in existance before "All things could be made through Him, John 1:3.)
16 "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."
--- So if all things were made through Him, it has to be through the Word, who is called the Only Begotten Son in John 1:18
Again in Hebrews 1:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
--- Again this says, "Through whom He made the worlds" --- so it has to be the Word, 'through whom all things were made,' also called the Son in John 1:18.
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
--- This gives more evidence --- "Your throne O God (the Word) is forever and ever --- The Word was already called God in John 1:1. (And the Word was God.)
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."[
--- This happened in the distant past when the Word was chosen as leader, from among the Sons of God, and God anointed Him with the oil of gladness, above His companions.
--- Jesus was never chosen from among others was He?
Quote from 1004:
Those who attempt to call Jesus God in the Old Testament, contradict and break the above Scriptures, from which there are many more! Except for prophecy that calls Jesus God, such as Ps.45:6-7, that is repeated in Heb.1:8-9.
Response: --- I know that you have given many Scriptures to say Jesus is not God, and here you say, "Except for prophecies that call Jesus God such as Ps 45:6-7, that is repeated in Hebrews 1:8-9.
--- I had spoken about this once before and you might have missed it. --- The problem is that every time SON is mentioned, everyone, including yourself, believes that it has to be Jesus. --- But you are ignoring the Scripture in John 1:3 that says "All things were made through the Word, who was also called the 'Only Begotten Son' in 1:18
In fact, I just wrote this in Post 1010
So the Word (Logos) was a heavenly Son who was loved by the Father, and was always subject to Him.
This is the 'only begotten God' or 'only begotten Son' in John 1:
18 (NKJ) "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [
f] (God) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
18 (NASB) "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
18 (NIV) "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Notice that "All things were made through the Word," --- so you can't bounce around and say "All things were made by somebody else" can you?
In Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, --- (This 'Son of His Love' is the Only begotten Son that is in the bosom of the Father, 1:18, because it says again,
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. --- (Because the Word is also called the Son, through whom all things were made, --- then it is the Word that was "The firstborn over all creation." --- He had to be in existance before "All things could be made through Him, John 1:3.)
16 "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."
--- So if all things were made through Him, it has to be through the Word, who is called the Only Begotten Son in John 1:18
Again in Hebrews 1:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
--- Again this says, "Through whom He made the worlds" --- so it has to be the Word, 'through whom all things were made,' also called the Son in John 1:18.
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
--- This gives more evidence --- "Your throne O God (the Word) is forever and ever --- The Word was already called God in John 1:1. (And the Word was God.)
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."[
--- This happened in the distant past when the Word was chosen as leader, from among the Sons of God, and God anointed Him with the oil of gladness, above His companions.
--- Jesus was never chosen from among others was He?
R
Jesus was not created by God until he was born through Mary. He was however in the Mind of God even before God created the heavens and Earth. Example: Genesis 1verse 26: God says "Let US MAKE man in OUR IMAGE"..this was God counselling with himself not conversing with Jesus. Jesus was in his mind, but not yet created at the time Jesus came to be later.
The Story in Daniel regarding the 3 Children of Israel being thrown into the Fire and :A forth man like the son of God among them has 1 of 2
explanations...(1) God himself in a Physical looking Theopony (2) An Angel of The Lord which can also transform themselves into Physical looking beings as well.
The Story in Daniel regarding the 3 Children of Israel being thrown into the Fire and :A forth man like the son of God among them has 1 of 2
explanations...(1) God himself in a Physical looking Theopony (2) An Angel of The Lord which can also transform themselves into Physical looking beings as well.
My oh my rba? There is a difference between being born and being created. Jesus was "NOT" created when He was born. To created means to make something out of nothing. Being born or "begotten" means to come out of another that already exist. When you were born 61 years ago rba your parents already existed. When as Adam and Eve did not have parents but were created by God out of the dust of the earth.
And if you knew your Bible it says that Jesus Christ was sent from heaven because He already existed and this does not mean just in the mind of God His Father. Can you please explain to all of us here what Micah 5:2 is teaching? And yes, God was counciling with Himself because God the Father is God, God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is God. If God is a singular being or should I say absolutly one then He cannot be love because love requires another person to love.
Lastly, I already explained in detail regarding the angel of the Lord and who he is.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And if you knew your Bible it says that Jesus Christ was sent from heaven because He already existed and this does not mean just in the mind of God His Father. Can you please explain to all of us here what Micah 5:2 is teaching? And yes, God was counciling with Himself because God the Father is God, God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is God. If God is a singular being or should I say absolutly one then He cannot be love because love requires another person to love.
Lastly, I already explained in detail regarding the angel of the Lord and who he is.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
JESUS WAS PROPHESIED AS A SERVANT in Isaiah.
Various times in Isaiah he uses the term, "The arm of the Lord," or "By His mighty arm." --- Then he declares in Isaiah 51:
5 My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, And My arms will judge the peoples;
The coastlands will wait upon Me, And on My arm they will trust.
52:10 The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.
13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations. --- (The Amplified Bible says):
15 So He will sprinkle many nations [with His blood, providing salvation].
Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; For what had not been told them they shall see, And what they had not heard they shall consider
53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
--- This was JESUS, and it speaks in the past tense as though the sacrifice on the cross, and the shedding of blood had already taken place.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin,
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
--- I don't believe the Lord 'took pleasure' in the death of JESUS, but it satisfied the Law which said, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission,"
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, 'AND BE SATISFIED.' --- By His knowledge MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
--- THAT WAS JESUS.
12 And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
--- The chapter ends with this statement which was fulfilled on the cross when Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do," Luke 23:34.
Various times in Isaiah he uses the term, "The arm of the Lord," or "By His mighty arm." --- Then he declares in Isaiah 51:
5 My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth, And My arms will judge the peoples;
The coastlands will wait upon Me, And on My arm they will trust.
52:10 The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.
13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations. --- (The Amplified Bible says):
15 So He will sprinkle many nations [with His blood, providing salvation].
Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; For what had not been told them they shall see, And what they had not heard they shall consider
53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
--- This was JESUS, and it speaks in the past tense as though the sacrifice on the cross, and the shedding of blood had already taken place.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin,
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
--- I don't believe the Lord 'took pleasure' in the death of JESUS, but it satisfied the Law which said, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission,"
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, 'AND BE SATISFIED.' --- By His knowledge MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
--- THAT WAS JESUS.
12 And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
--- The chapter ends with this statement which was fulfilled on the cross when Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do," Luke 23:34.
R
My oh my rba? There is a difference between being born and being created. Jesus was "NOT" created when He was born. To created means to make something out of nothing. Being born or "begotten" means to come out of another that already exist. When you were born 61 years ago rba your parents already existed. When as Adam and Eve did not have parents but were created by God out of the dust of the earth.
And if you knew your Bible it says that Jesus Christ was sent from heaven because He already existed and this does not mean just in the mind of God His Father. Can you please explain to all of us here what Micah 5:2 is teaching? And yes, God was counciling with Himself because God the Father is God, God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is God. If God is a singular being or should I say absolutly one then He cannot be love because love requires another person to love.
Lastly, I already explained in detail regarding the angel of the Lord and who he is.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And if you knew your Bible it says that Jesus Christ was sent from heaven because He already existed and this does not mean just in the mind of God His Father. Can you please explain to all of us here what Micah 5:2 is teaching? And yes, God was counciling with Himself because God the Father is God, God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is God. If God is a singular being or should I say absolutly one then He cannot be love because love requires another person to love.
Lastly, I already explained in detail regarding the angel of the Lord and who he is.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?
"IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
R
In Genesis 1 verse 26 God; says" Let US make man in our image......" So Trinity beleivers this proves beyond a doubt That in John 1 verse 26 God was speaking to Jesus standing next to him...Then...THEN we discover and find that is not true...
(1) Romans 4 verse 17..."........even GOD, WHO QUICKENTH THE DEAD...AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS ...WHICH BE NOT...AS THOUGH THEY WERE" Amen.
I Corinthians 1 verse 28: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things WHICH ARE NOT, TO BRING TO NOUGHT THINGS THAT ARE."
(1) Romans 4 verse 17..."........even GOD, WHO QUICKENTH THE DEAD...AND CALLETH THOSE THINGS ...WHICH BE NOT...AS THOUGH THEY WERE" Amen.
I Corinthians 1 verse 28: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things WHICH ARE NOT, TO BRING TO NOUGHT THINGS THAT ARE."