Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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Excuse me bigd, but where did you get this from, "having a form of devoutness?" Where is that in the text of Philippians 2:6? The following is what Greek Scholar A.T.Robertson says about Philippians 2:6,7. Can you please tell me where you disagree?

"Verse 6
Being (υπαρχων — huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of υπαρχω — huparchō In the form of God (εν μορπηι τεου — en morphēi theou). Μορπη — Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.
A prize (αρπαγμον — harpagmon). Predicate accusative with ηγησατο — hēgēsato Originally words in μος — ̇mos signified the act, not the result (μα — ̇ma). The few examples of αρπαγμος — harpagmos (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to αρπαγμα — harpagma like βαπτισμος — baptismos and βαπτισμα — baptisma That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won (“robbery”). To be on an equality with God (το ειναι ισα τεοι — to einai isa theoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of ηγησατο — hēgēsato “the being equal with God” (associative instrumental case τεωι — theōi after ισα — isa). Ισα — Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with ειναι — einai as in Revelation 21:16. Emptied himself (εαυτον εκενωσε — heauton ekenōse). First aorist active indicative of κενοω — kenoō old verb from κενος — kenos empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible. He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Κενοσις — Kenosis doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man. It is here that men should show restraint and modesty, though it is hard to believe that Jesus limited himself by error of knowledge and certainly not by error of conduct. He was without sin, though tempted as we are. “He stripped himself of the insignia of majesty” (Lightfoot).
[HR][/HR]Verse 7
The form of a servant (μορπην δουλου — morphēn doulou). He took the characteristic attributes (μορπην — morphēn as in Phlippians 2:6) of a slave. His humanity was as real as his deity.
In the likeness of men (εν ομοιωματι αντρωπων — en homoiōmati anthrōpōn). It was a likeness, but a real likeness (Kennedy), no mere phantom humanity as the Docetic Gnostics held. Note the difference in tense between υπαρχων — huparchōn (eternal existence in the μορπη — morphē of God) and γενομενος — genomenos (second aorist middle participle of γινομαι — ginomai becoming, definite entrance in time upon his humanity)." :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

notbythesword

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2015
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Ok sword, let's see what excuse your going to come up with Titus 2:13? "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our greeat God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Please notice the similarity of this verse to 2 Peter 1:1. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Again, you see the personal “of us” reflected in the original Greek.

Titus 2:13 Interlinear: waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Remember what Paul said about all the language being used regarding lords and gods? I think he summed it up best.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 - For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father. All things are from Him, and we exist for Him. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things are through Him, and we exist through Him.

Jesus was anointed and later exalted by God. If you want a good example of the true Godhead, as well as both the God Jesus and “the God” being used together, then look no further than Hebrews 1:8-9.

Hebrews 1:8-9 -but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.

What a blasphemous thing to say about Jesus having a God right? Especially since we’re told how the apostles believed in the Trinity Doctrine too. Here’s a link to an interlinear translation of Hebrews 1:9 so you can view how “the God” has a definite article in front of it.

Hebrews 1:9 Interlinear: thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee -- God, thy God -- with oil of gladness above thy partners;'

Back to Titus though. Let’s just look at how Paul opens the letter.

Titus 1:4 - To Titus, my true son in our common faith. Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Doesn’t look like Paul was trying to push much of a triune godhead onto us there. Looks like he identified God as the Father to me.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Again, you see the personal “of us” reflected in the original Greek.

Titus 2:13 Interlinear: waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Remember what Paul said about all the language being used regarding lords and gods? I think he summed it up best.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 - For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father. All things are from Him, and we exist for Him. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things are through Him, and we exist through Him.

Jesus was anointed and later exalted by God. If you want a good example of the true Godhead, as well as both the God Jesus and “the God” being used together, then look no further than Hebrews 1:8-9.

Hebrews 1:8-9 -but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.

What a blasphemous thing to say about Jesus having a God right? Especially since we’re told how the apostles believed in the Trinity Doctrine too. Here’s a link to an interlinear translation of Hebrews 1:9 so you can view how “the God” has a definite article in front of it.

Hebrews 1:9 Interlinear: thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee -- God, thy God -- with oil of gladness above thy partners;'

Back to Titus though. Let’s just look at how Paul opens the letter.

Titus 1:4 - To Titus, my true son in our common faith. Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Doesn’t look like Paul was trying to push much of a triune godhead onto us there. Looks like he identified God as the Father to me.
Not so sword? Your not dealing with the specific context of the verse. There is only one person in view in this verse as well as at 2 Peter 1:1. Notice it says at Titus 2:13, "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus." God the Father is not appearing when Jesus Christ comes, Jesus is the one who is appearing. God the Father cannot be seen according to Jesus Christ Himself.

John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me, You have neither heard Hisw voice at any time, nor seen His form." And John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." Oh yea I almost forgot John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the FAther, He has declared Him."

Plus the fact that Revelation 1:8, 17,18 backs up Titus 2:13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. And vs17,18, "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

First of all notice that Jesus Christ puts His right hand on John which means He has a body in heaven. Secondly, just like God the Father is the "First and Last" according to Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last." So how many "first and last" are there sword? Look also at Revelation 22:12,13, "Behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. vs13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

So the bottom line in all of this is the fact that since God the Father cannot be seen and He to is identified as the "first and last" at Isaiah 44:6 and the Father is also identified as the Redeemer in the same verse there and at Isaiah 43:11, "And there is no savior besides Me," yet Jesus Christ is identified as the Redeemer and Savior as well who is coming again. The Father is not coming because every eye will see Jesus Christ at His coming. Now what are you going to do sword? How are you going to reconcile the verses I just provided with your position that Jesus Christ is not God? :eek: And PS: I have even gotten to the fact that Jesus Christ appears in the Old Testament! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

notbythesword

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2015
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Not so sword? Your not dealing with the specific context of the verse. There is only one person in view in this verse as well as at 2 Peter 1:1. Notice it says at Titus 2:13, "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus." God the Father is not appearing when Jesus Christ comes, Jesus is the one who is appearing. God the Father cannot be seen according to Jesus Christ Himself.

John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me, You have neither heard Hisw voice at any time, nor seen His form." And John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." Oh yea I almost forgot John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the FAther, He has declared Him."

Plus the fact that Revelation 1:8, 17,18 backs up Titus 2:13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. And vs17,18, "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One, and I was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

First of all notice that Jesus Christ puts His right hand on John which means He has a body in heaven. Secondly, just like God the Father is the "First and Last" according to Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last." So how many "first and last" are there sword? Look also at Revelation 22:12,13, "Behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. vs13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

So the bottom line in all of this is the fact that since God the Father cannot be seen and He to is identified as the "first and last" at Isaiah 44:6 and the Father is also identified as the Redeemer in the same verse there and at Isaiah 43:11, "And there is no savior besides Me," yet Jesus Christ is identified as the Redeemer and Savior as well who is coming again. The Father is not coming because every eye will see Jesus Christ at His coming. Now what are you going to do sword? How are you going to reconcile the verses I just provided with your position that Jesus Christ is not God? :eek: And PS: I have even gotten to the fact that Jesus Christ appears in the Old Testament! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You say that “God the Father is not appearing when Jesus Christ comes, Jesus is the one who is appearing”. So here is my question to you…what is this “Power” that Jesus is sitting to the right of?

Mark 14:62 - “I am,” said Jesus, “and all of you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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No no, no sword, quit changing the subject! I gave you clear verses starting with Titus 2:13 which explicitly states that Jesus Christ is God our Savior who is coming back for His church. I also gave you verses that back up Titus 2:13 which clearly identify Jesus Christ as God according to Revelation 1:8.

This is why it's vitally important to consider the context when you "exegete" scripture. You were so focused on the idea that, "Well Titus 2:13 is the same as 2 Peter 1:1. It did not occur to you that God the Father cannot be seen (even according to Jesus Christ Himself) but Jesus Christ can and will be seen at His second coming. (Matthew 24:30 and 2 Thessolians 2:8).

Now, even though you changed the subject I'm such a nice guy I will still address your question? The idea of "sitting at the right hand of God" has to do with a place of honor or authority. It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being less than God the Father because they are equal in nature. Remember Philippians 2:6-9 Jesus Christ existed in the form/morphe of God and then at vs7 emptied Himself to take the form of a servant by appearing in the likeness of a man. Vs9, Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name."

There is "NOTHING" in what you said here: " You say that “God the Father is not appearing when Jesus Christ comes, Jesus is the one who is appearing”. So here is my question to you…what is this “Power” that Jesus is sitting to the right of?

Mark 14:62 - “I am,” said Jesus, “and all of you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” that diminishes who Jesus Christ is before He lowered Himself to becoming a man. Now, I have question for you, actually two questions from the Old Testament?

Who appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17:1,2? "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeard to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." The second question? At Genesis 22 who spoke to Abraham from heaven two times in the chapter? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

notbythesword

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2015
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No no, no sword, quit changing the subject! I gave you clear verses starting with Titus 2:13 which explicitly states that Jesus Christ is God our Savior who is coming back for His church. I also gave you verses that back up Titus 2:13 which clearly identify Jesus Christ as God according to Revelation 1:8.

This is why it's vitally important to consider the context when you "exegete" scripture. You were so focused on the idea that, "Well Titus 2:13 is the same as 2 Peter 1:1. It did not occur to you that God the Father cannot be seen (even according to Jesus Christ Himself) but Jesus Christ can and will be seen at His second coming. (Matthew 24:30 and 2 Thessolians 2:8).

Now, even though you changed the subject I'm such a nice guy I will still address your question? The idea of "sitting at the right hand of God" has to do with a place of honor or authority. It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being less than God the Father because they are equal in nature. Remember Philippians 2:6-9 Jesus Christ existed in the form/morphe of God and then at vs7 emptied Himself to take the form of a servant by appearing in the likeness of a man. Vs9, Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name."

There is "NOTHING" in what you said here: " You say that “God the Father is not appearing when Jesus Christ comes, Jesus is the one who is appearing”. So here is my question to you…what is this “Power” that Jesus is sitting to the right of?

Mark 14:62 - “I am,” said Jesus, “and all of you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” that diminishes who Jesus Christ is before He lowered Himself to becoming a man. Now, I have question for you, actually two questions from the Old Testament?

Who appeared to Abraham at Genesis 17:1,2? "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeard to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." The second question? At Genesis 22 who spoke to Abraham from heaven two times in the chapter? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Seems like the only one changing the subject is you. I literally just addressed the Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 issues. I also directly responded to your “God the Father is not appearing when Jesus Christ comes, Jesus is the one who is appearing” comment. I showed you Mark 14:62 and YOU still haven’t given me a straight answer of “what” the “Power” is. So again…what is the “Power” that Jesus is sitting next to bluto?

I also already addressed your (if someone is called God then they must be THE GOD) theory. You basically believe that because someone is called God in scripture, then that must mean that they are the God of the Most High. I clearly showed you in scripture how Jesus Himself was called God and yet was said to have a God above Him within the same passage. Read Hebrews 1:8-9 again. Maybe you could touch on it as well.

I’m not sure if you remember, but I personally believe that Jesus pre-existed with the Father before His being sent into this world in bodily form. To your last questions regarding Genesis 17:1-2 and Genesis 22, I view it as God speaking. However, I do believe that God can speak “through” people and divine beings. This is shown with prophets, angels, and Christ Himself.

By the way, don’t forget page 69 post 1375. It seems to be getting buried deeper and deeper within the archives.
 
Nov 12, 2016
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Excuse me bigd, but where did you get this from, "having a form of devoutness?" Where is that in the text of Philippians 2:6? The following is what Greek Scholar A.T.Robertson says about Philippians 2:6,7. Can you please tell me where you disagree?

You err. Maybe you need to read what I posted again. If you are going to quote me at least get it right.


I didn't say that the phrase "having a form of devoutness" was in Philippians 2:6. That's why it says "(2Tim 3:5)" next to it. I was quoting the scholar A. E. Knoch.


I see your scholar is using Modern Greek. These were written about 1500 years after Jesus left. Alot can happen in 1500 years to a language.


bluto... Wasn't he Popey's nemesis?
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 10:30
[FONT=&quot]I and my Father are one.[/FONT]
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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BigD9832 says. I see your scholar is using Modern Greek. These were written about 1500 years after Jesus left. Alot can happen in 1500 years to a language.
AT Robertson is an expert in koine Greek which is the Greek of the New Testament.
 

notbythesword

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2015
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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
1 John 5:7 KJV - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 ESV - For there are three that testify

I wonder which translation is correct. Seems odd how there would be two different translations of 1 John 5:7. Maybe one translation is a proven forgery…

John 17:20-26 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

1 Corinthians 6:17 - But anyone joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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CLV Phl 2:5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 butnevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.





THE EXAMPLE OF CHRIST JESUS


6 Form denotes outward appearance, as is shown by Paul's use of it in the contrast, "having a form of devoutness, yet denying its power" (2Tim 3:5). We have found it impossible to sustain the idea that it refers to intrinsic essence. Figure or fashion denotes the form prevailing at any time. Christ was the Image of God, the visible representation of the Deity. Paul himself saw Him on the Damascus road in celestial glory. Yet the form in verse 6 was laid aside for that of a slave, at His incarnation.


Adam and his progeny seek to exalt themselves and will be humbled. But Christ, Who might easily assume the place of equality with God, found His delight in submission and humiliation.


The ending -mos of the word for pillaging denotes the act, not the object of pillage. When He was in the form of God His glory was too bright to be gazed upon by men. The apostle John presents Him as the audible Word, but Paul shows Him as the visible Image of the Deity, too bright for mortal gaze and seen only by our spiritual perception. As such He is seen in this epistle.


7 Empties cannot refer to a partial relinquishment of His previous state, but a total change of form, in which none of God's glory was apparent to the physical sight.


The Example of Christ


The enormous sweep of this synopsis of Christ's service and suffering takes in the whole universe and all the eons, from the beginning to the consummation. Being in the form of God, He was above the heavens, under the curse of the cross He was beneath all. Yet, as He voluntarily descended from the highest to the lowest place, so, too, shall be His exaltation. Every tongue will acclaim Him Lord for God the Father's glory. This cannot be until every heart will have been subdued at the consummation (1Cor 15:28). Until then there are enemies who oppose His rule. Ever since His resurrection God has been engaged in His exaltation. Even now, many celestial powers are subordinate to Him (1Pet 3:22). When He comes again the earth will be added to His domain, until finally the whole universe will be reconciled to God by the blood of His cross (Col 1:20). This is His reward. It is as Jesus (Jehovah the Saviour), the name of His humiliation, that He will be exalted to the place supreme. He Who was lowest shall become the highest.

A. E. Knoch
you cite 2 Tim 3.5 as though it explains Phil 2.6, but the word in the latter is morphe whereas in the former it is morphosis. Your interpretation is therefore discredited.
 
Nov 12, 2016
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AT Robertson is an expert in koine Greek which is the Greek of the New Testament.

That may be true. But what you have displayed is Modern Greek, not Ancinet Greek . This is Ancient Koine Greek.


 
Nov 12, 2016
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you cite 2 Tim 3.5 as though it explains Phil 2.6, but the word in the latter is morphe whereas in the former it is morphosis. Your interpretation is therefore discredited.


You don't know what drawing an analogy is?


It seems you are the one who is discredited.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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You don't know what drawing an analogy is?


It seems you are the one who is discredited.
No bigd, your the one that does not know what your talking about because your so-called "analogy" does not apply due to the fact that the two words "morphosis" at 2 Timothy 3:5 does not mean the same thing as the word "morph" at Philippians 2:6. Look up Thayer's Lexicon number 3446 for "morphosis" and number 3444 "morph" for the Philippians verse.

Their application cannot be interchanged as you trying to do by way of analogy because the context of how the word "form" is used is different. This is a typical "rookie" mistake thinking that the same word in how it is used means the same thing. If I said the word, "bark" you would not know what I mean't unless I used in a sentence, i.e. the context. I could be referring to the bark of a dog or the bark of a tree. And btw, I did ask you why the Council of Nicea met at 325AD and you did not address the question? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

notbythesword

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2015
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Before Jesus entered into this world as a man, He was in the same/equal form as the Father. We are flesh and blood, but Jesus was of spiritual form. Flesh and blood is what Jesus became once He obeyed His Father and humbled Himself, taking on the form of a man. Just because Jesus was originally in the same/equal spiritual form as the Father, by no way means that He was the same/equal with the Father in power. Equal in form is not equal in power.

Let’s take a look at three examples of Philippians 2:5-11. First in its original rendering. Next, we’ll replace the words that identify Jesus with “the Son”. Finally, (because Jesus is God Himself) we’ll use another example of Philippians 2:5-11, only this time we’ll be substituting the words that are describing Jesus, and replacing them with the word God. Let’s see if this passage makes more sense as Jesus being God, or still as the Son of God. I’ll highlight the changes in blue.

(Original) Rendering of Philippians 2:5-11 - Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death—even to death on a cross. For this reason God highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow—of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth—and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(The Son) Rendering of Philippians 2:5-11 - Make your own attitude that of the Son, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for the Son’s own advantage. Instead the Son emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when the Son had come as a man in His external form, the Son humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death—even to death on a cross. For this reason God highly exalted the Son and gave the Son the name that is above every name, so that at the name of the Son every knee will bow—of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth—and every tongue should confess that the Son is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Jesus is God) Rendering of Philippians 2:5-11 - Make your own attitude that of God, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for God’s own advantage. Instead God emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when God had come as a man in His external form, God humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death—even to death on a cross. For this reason God highly exalted God and gave God the name that is above every name, so that at the name of God every knee will bow—of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth—and every tongue should confess that God is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What makes more sense when showing who Jesus was, prior to his incarnation? Does Jesus appear to be God, or still the Son of God?
 
Nov 12, 2016
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No bigd, your the one that does not know what your talking about because your so-called "analogy" does not apply due to the fact that the two words "morphosis" at 2 Timothy 3:5 does not mean the same thing as the word "morph" at Philippians 2:6. Look up Thayer's Lexicon number 3446 for "morphosis" and number 3444 "morph" for the Philippians verse.

Actually, you are the one sho doesn't know what he is talking about. This analogy was written by a scholar. Someone trained to do this.


Thayer's is based on Modern Greek, which added a few definitions over the 1000 year period.


So I would consider your post to be wrong.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Ok sword let's examine what you have said in your other post to me? :I’m not sure if you remember, but I personally believe that Jesus pre-existed with the Father before His being sent into this world in bodily form. To your last questions regarding Genesis 17:1-2 and Genesis 22, I view it as God speaking. However, I do believe that God can speak “through” people and divine beings. This is shown with prophets, angels, and Christ Himself.

And this is what your saying in this post: "Before Jesus entered into this world as a man, He was in the same/equal form as the Father. We are flesh and blood, but Jesus was of spiritual form." Remember I gave you Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abram and said to him, I, AM GOD ALMIGHTY; Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

It explicity states that the Lord God appeared to Abram and furhtermore this was a physical appearance of God to Abram. And since Jesus Christ Himself stated at John 5:47, John 6:46 states that God the Father cannot be seen then who appeared to Abram that is clearly identified as God? I know you said it was perhaps angels, prophets, and even Christ Himself. I also want to know in what form was Jesus Christ before His incarnation as a man? I say He was in the "form" of God based on Philippians 2:6 which explicityl states that "although" (which means in spite of the fact) He/Jesus always existed as God and then He takes the "form" of a man.

Now, I also mentioned Genesis 22 and ask you who spoke from heaven, Genesis 22:11 and at vs15 where the angel of the Lord called out from heaven two times. What does he say at Genesis 22:16, 17 sword? And why does not God Himself call out from heaven instead of having the angel of the Lord do it? God called out from heaven at Exodus 20:22. He also called out from heaven at Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." Did God at Genesis 22 have laryngitis? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
Nov 12, 2016
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Look. If Jesus was God He would have said so plainly...

CLV Jn 18:20 And Jesus answered him, "I with boldness have spoken to the world. I always teach in a synagogue and in the sanctuary where all the Jews are coming together, and in hiding I speak nothing.

All this splitting hairs means nothing.

If there was a "trinity" the Jews of His time would have known about it. And the Jews did not, nor do they today. I am talking about the Orthodox Jews.

There is no "trinity" in the Scriptures. Jesus never called Himself God.

Only in the imaginations of some people.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Look. If Jesus was God He would have said so plainly...

CLV Jn 18:20 And Jesus answered him, "I with boldness have spoken to the world. I always teach in a synagogue and in the sanctuary where all the Jews are coming together, and in hiding I speak nothing.

All this splitting hairs means nothing.

If there was a "trinity" the Jews of His time would have known about it. And the Jews did not, nor do they today. I am talking about the Orthodox Jews.

There is no "trinity" in the Scriptures. Jesus never called Himself God.

Only in the imaginations of some people.
smh..



Is 48:16 : Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it (the beginning) was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit , hath sent me.

Here we have the GOD of Israel telling the children of Israel to come near to him, And letting them know plainly. The lord God (father) and his spirit (holy spirit) sent him.

The trinity is all over the bible. If you do npt agree, Thats fine, But to deny it outright is just argymentative, and gets you no where

Jesus did call himself God.

He said before abraham existed, He was (the same words used by the God of Israel to Moses)

He did not correct Thomas when Thomas called him God (and no Thomas did not say Oh My God That's ridiculous)

He told the father in his intercessary prayer that he was with him in the begining (before time began)

there is just way way to much proof to say he is not God.. It is one thing to say you disagree, But to say no way.. Your wrong.







 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Actually, you are the one sho doesn't know what he is talking about. This analogy was written by a scholar. Someone trained to do this.
There are thousand of scholars with all different views. Your 'scholar' is not a recognised one. He shows it for example in mixing morphe and morphosis which have distinct meanings.


Thayer's is based on Modern Greek, which added a few definitions over the 1000 year period.
RUBBISH

So I would consider your post to be wrong.
your post is definitely WRONG. Try listening to REAL scholars.