Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

peacefulbeliever · Jan 19, 2015

Does John 3:16 say that "whosoever believes in the only begotten Son" has eternal life? That is how I secure my eternal life.

Does Romans 10:9,10 say that one is saved when they confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead? Does Ephesians say: For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God? That is how I am saved - through faith by God's grace.

Now I am born again of Spirit - notice BORN AGAIN . . . God had a purpose in using that specific language "born again" relating it to birth. You can't undo birth! THAT IS SALVATION.

Now I begin my walk - that is where my obedience comes in - I WANT to walk in the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh - that is my walk of obedience. When I walk in the Spirit - I am in fellowship and walk in light, i.e. in obedience but when if I fail at times - I fulfill the lust of the flesh and I walk in darkness . . . To restore that fellowship I admit that I have fallen short and I am restored.

BTW - I don't hate my brother even in disagreement . . .

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

No. You did not answer the questions. You avoided them. I will repeat the questions and answer them for you. This is based on what the passage actually says.

Q: What are you cleansed of in 1 John 1:9?

A: 1 John 1:9 says we are cleansed of unrighteousness. And 1 John 5:17 says all unrighteousness is sin.

Q: What are you forgiven of in 1 John 1:9?

A: 1 John 1:9 says we are forgiven of sin.

Q: How do you get cleansed or forgiven in 1 John 1:9?

A: By confessing your sins.

Q: According to 1 John 1:7, how does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin?

A: By walking in the light as he is in the light.

In other words, you need to confess sin in order to be forgiven and you need to walk in the light to be cleansed of all sin by Christ's blood.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

BradC said:

The practice of sin you refer to is without conviction or reproof. When the blood of Christ has purged the conscience from dead works that conscience is now able to be convicted by the word through the Holy Spirit. The conscience is where we have stored all the standards and spiritual norms for living our life. We must store up God's standards through the intake of the word and doctrine along with the grace of God to establish our hearts and purify our conscience. This is how we become sensitive to any form of sin. 'Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against God (Psalm 119:130).

We can only confess sin that we are convicted through the Spirit because of the word and doctrine we have in our heart. This is where a believer who knows to do good (kalos) and does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). Paul taught in many of his epistles to put off the old man and his deeds and to put on Christ. I would call that doing good and that which is right without having to go through all this confession that some demand on this site. Sin happens when we are drawn away with our own lust and enticed. When that lust is conceived it brings forth sin. Lust is anything we desire or have an appetite for outside the will of God. This is where the cross comes into play by having crucified that desire and lust of the flesh. Because of the cross we can put off that desire and do the good thing and put on the new man. This a learning process that God provides for little by little so that we learn how to receive grace and grow up in Christ.

All of this is useless if you teach that a believer can sin (or be out of fellowship) and still be saved at some point.

BradC · Jan 19, 2015

newbirth said:

you are trying to secure your salvation with words like un born ,,,take back and temporary life....but that does not alter the fact that eternal life is in Christ...and one must remain in obedience to Him ...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ does not take back eternal life....if a believer fall away from Christ then they are not one with Christ and therefore cannot have eternal life...it is the same principle ..if a man hate his brother he is a murderer and no murderer have eternal life abiding in them...

Read the book of Ephesians and notice how many times believers are referred to as 'in Christ'.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

John 3:!6 is in context to the Condemnation in John 3:19-21. The Condemnation are those who do not come to the Light because they love the darkness of their own evil deeds. In other words, the OSAS proponent who still abides in unrepentant sin (or is out of fellowship) is still under the Condemnation.

As for Romans 10:9-10: You have to keep reading. Romans 11:21-22 makes it clear that the Jews were cut off, and that we (Gentiles) have to continue in his goodness or we too can be cut off, too.

As for your reply on hating a brother: Well, if OSAS is true, then hating your brother will not cause one to have no eternal life within them. Such a statement in the Scriptures would not exist. But they do. Which means OSAS is a lie.

BradC · Jan 19, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Why would God take the time to send His only begotten Son if we could have confessed our sin and had the blood of bulls and goat satisfy God from year to year! The sins of the people were transferred to a sin offering, so why send the lamb when sin could be dealt with through the blood of animals when we confess? There must be a greater reason that God sent his Son in relationship to sin that was better then the sin offering of the OT.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

Radius said:

Believers that have backslidden into sin can renew their faith and come back. James 5:19-20 talks about this. But if they die while in backslidden state, then they never really loved God anymore than an unbeliever who died young. They would be cast into outer darkness in Hades, be Judged, and then destroyed in the Lake of Fire both body and soul.

Expectations or high hopes has nothing to do with a doctrine that leads many people to be a slave to their sin. Yes, not everyone is the same, and some do march on towards holiness. But to teach that others can sin and still be saved leads others to think they have a license to sin. Whether you agree with the results or not. That is what happens. That is the reality of the situation.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

BradC said:

The Scriptures say the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. Meaning, they had to keep revisiting those sins year after year. Past sins. Not future sins. But with Jesus Christ, once you confess a sin, it is gone. This is past sin and not future sin.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites' sins were transferred to the head of a goat. This is symbolic of how Christ took on our sin as a substitute so as to pay the price for the world's sin. This was so that God can make available the free gift. A free gift that comes with certain conditions. For one, you have to receive the gift. The gift is received when you repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. From there, you abide with Christ and His righteousness.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

BradC said:

You must have missed this passage then.

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Be not ye therefore partakers with them." (Ephesians 5:3-7).

BradC · Jan 19, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Notice what you believe, 'a free gift that comes with certain conditions' A free gift is not free if it has conditions to fulfill. It would be one based on debt, in other words we would owe our confession of sin as a debt in order for what God did on the cross to benefit us as sinners. When he was crucified as sin and for sin, putting sin away and not imputing trespasses onto the world for whom He died and shed his blood that was freely done for sinful man. We who believe have been justified freely, without debt, by grace through faith in the work of the cross that put away all sin. Our confession is what he did to sin by crucifying it on the cross and then suffered the judgment of that sin through death. We confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised him from the dead and we are saved. With the heart man believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The confession that is made with the mouth is that Christ bore our sins on the cross. At that moment we are saved. Any reference to repentance that we read has to with turning from any and everything that keeps us in unbelief concerning Christ, his death, burial and resurrection. When we turn to Christ by faith through the gospel that is repentance, we turn from the way we were going being led astray into sin and unto Christ, our sin bearer, the only way to pass from death unto life.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

BradC said:

Notice what you believe, 'a free gift that comes with certain conditions' A free gift is not free if it has conditions to fulfill. It would be one based on debt, in other words we would owe our confession of sin as a debt in order for what God did on the cross to benefit us as sinners. When he was crucified as sin and for sin, putting sin away and not imputing trespasses onto the world for whom He died and shed his blood that was freely done for sinful man. We who believe have been justified freely, without debt, by grace through faith in the work of the cross that put away all sin. Our confession is what he did to sin by crucifying it on the cross and then suffered the judgment of that sin through death. We confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised him from the dead and we are saved. With the heart man believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The confession that is made with the mouth is that Christ bore our sins on the cross. At that moment we are saved. Any reference to repentance that we read has to with turning from any and everything that keeps us in unbelief concerning Christ, his death, burial and resurrection. When we turn to Christ by faith through the gospel that is repentance, we turn from the way we were going being led astray into sin and unto Christ, our sin bearer, the only way to pass from death unto life.

If I give you a brand new car (tax free) that does not mean that you can be irresponsible with that gift. You can't run red lights, plow thru pedestrians, text and drive, drink and drive, ignore general maintainence on your car and still expect to keep your free gift. Most gifts require some kind of care involved at some point.

Jason0047 · Jan 19, 2015

Jason0047 · Jan 20, 2015

Jason0047 · Jan 20, 2015

Jason0047 · Jan 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:

If I give you a brand new car (tax free) that does not mean that you can be irresponsible with that gift. You can't run red lights, plow thru pedestrians, text and drive, drink and drive, ignore general maintainence on your car and still expect to keep your free gift. Most gifts require some kind of care involved at some point.

BradC · Jan 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Your understanding is from human viewpoint and not from divine viewpoint. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ and it is given by grace through faith when we believe. We are not justified by repentence or confession of sin. We are justifiedby faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ. He is the author of our eternal salvation, the gift of eternal life and is the author and finisher of our faith. The cross has taken care of sin 100% with no mistakes or short comings whatsoever.

Jason, you do not understand what it means to put off the old man and his deeds and to put on Christ, the one new man. God gives us the grace to put away and lay aside every weight and sin that would easily beset us from running the race. How we live our life that is seated with Him must be from divine viewpoint setting our mind on things above and not on the things of the earth. When a brother sins we who live from divine viewpoint (spiritual) go to them alone in the spirit of meekness and restore them. We don't go to them and magnify sin but rather get them focused on Christ through the goodness of God.

The Holy Spirit brings conviction in their heart concerning the wrong way they are going. They respond to that conviction and receive grace and by faith they are restored and we have won a brother. This is the goodness of God that leads to repentence, not some legalistic approach that condemns them for sin and never ministers grace. God restores the heart of the brother that has been drawn by grace to see the error of his way. It is the same goodness of God's grace that restores them back into fellowship with Jesus Christ and the members of His body. Jason, if you understood this from God's viewpoint you would see the error of your own way and receive grace and your struggle with sin would cease.

Jason0047 · Jan 20, 2015

BradC said:

Your understanding is from human viewpoint and not from divine viewpoint. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ and it is given by grace through faith when we believe. We are not justified by repentence or confession of sin. We are justifiedby faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ. He is the author of our eternal salvation, the gift of eternal life and is the author and finisher of our faith. The cross has taken care of sin 100% with no mistakes or short comings whatsoever.

Jason, you do not understand what it means to put off the old man and his deeds and to put on Christ, the one new man. God gives us the grace to put away and lay aside every weight and sin that would easily beset us from running the race. How we live our life that is seated with Him must be from divine viewpoint setting our mind on things above and not on the things of the earth. When a brother sins we who live from divine viewpoint (spiritual) go to them alone in the spirit of meekness and restore them. We don't go to them and magnify sin but rather get them focused on Christ through the goodness of God.

The Holy Spirit brings conviction in their heart concerning the wrong way they are going. They respond to that conviction and receive grace and by faith they are restored and we have won a brother. This is the goodness of God that leads to repentence, not some legalistic approach that condemns them for sin and never ministers grace. God restores the heart of the brother that has been drawn by grace to see the error of his way. It is the same goodness of God's grace that restores them back into fellowship with Jesus Christ and the members of His body. Jason, if you understood this from God's viewpoint you would see the error of your own way and receive grace and your struggle with sin would cease.

No, Jesus Christ illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples. That is what I did. Used a real world example like Jesus had done. But the OSAS version that says you can sin and still be saved cannot be illustrated using a real world example. Why? Because it has no basis in reality and is not true.

peacefulbeliever · Jan 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:

We are dealing with 1 John 1. "Sin" in the context of 1 John 1 is broken fellowship. [actually ANY sin breaks fellowship - because "sin" is "walking in darkness"]

The context of 1 John 1 is fellowship - "sin" in 1 John 1 is broken fellowship; i.e. "walking in darkness"

Humble ourselves before God and admit that we have sinned; i.e. "walked in darkness" - we are restored

And when we humble ourselves before God and admit that we have sinned; i.e. "walked in darkness" - we are restored

Answered in previous post: When we are out of fellowship - and want to be restored back into fellowship with the Father, the Son and with other members of the household of God; we admit that we have sinned [Father I have sinned (by walking in darkness)] - and we are restored back into fellowship because we are cleansed from all unrighteousness - of broken fellowship.

newbirth · Jan 20, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

OK.....
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

OK
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

the same way one is born in a physical body and cannot live outside that body....it is the same way one is born again spiritually in Christ and cannot live spiritually outside Christ...

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

obedience does not "come in" after a believer begin his walk....the walk of a believer begins in obedience to the faith...
scripture is clear if you walk in the Spirit you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.....
Galatians 5:16...
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

so it is evident that one is already in darkness in order to fulfil the lust of the flesh...
.
James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I never said you did....and hope I did not give that impression....

newbirth · Jan 20, 2015

BradC said:

by your thinking the devils who believe are also in Christ....on what basis do you call yourself a believer? because you simply believe or because you live what you believe???
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

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