Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

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Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?


  • Total voters
    46
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
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John 3:!6 is in context to the Condemnation in John 3:19-21. The Condemnation are those who do not come to the Light because they love the darkness of their own evil deeds. In other words, the OSAS proponent who still abides in unrepentant sin (or is out of fellowship) is still under the Condemnation.

As for Romans 10:9-10: You have to keep reading. Romans 11:21-22 makes it clear that the Jews were cut off, and that we (Gentiles) have to continue in his goodness or we too can be cut off, too.

As for your reply on hating a brother: Well, if OSAS is true, then hating your brother will not cause one to have no eternal life within them. Such a statement in the Scriptures would not exist. But they do. Which means OSAS is a lie.
John 3:15 - Who is promised eternal life? whosoever believes in HIM
John 3:16 - Who is promised eternal life? whosoever believes in the only begotten Son of God
John 3:17 - Why did God send his Son? not to condemn but to save
John 3:18 - Who is he that is condemned already? he that believeth not
John 3:19 - What is the condemnation? that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil
John 3:20 - Who is he that doeth evil? Every one that doeth evil hateth the light neither cometh to the light
[Seems like that leads us back to John 3:18]
John 3:21 - Who is he that doeth truth? He that comes to the light - who is that light? the only begotten Son of God [which leads us back to John 3:15]

Romans 11:21-22: [v13] - For I speak to you GENTILES. . . . . Natural branches = Israel; Israel was broken off because of unbelief - I am neither Jew nor Gentile for I have believed in the only begotten Son of God and I have been born again - I am placed in the body of Christ; where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. . . . . but all are one through the Spirit.

 
Feb 21, 2012
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OK.....
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In response to John 3:16 - so is John 3:16 true or false?
OK
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

the same way one is born in a physical body and cannot live outside that body....it is the same way one is born again spiritually in Christ and cannot live spiritually outside Christ...

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

obedience does not "come in" after a believer begin his walk....the walk of a believer begins in obedience to the faith...
scripture is clear if you walk in the Spirit you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.....
Who said anything about NO obedience? BUT obedience does not bring one salvation - faith in Jesus Christ brings salvation - salvation brings about obedience. NO ONE can walk the walk WITHOUT the holy Spirit so one must be born again before they can walk the walk.
Galatians 5:16...
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

so it is evident that one is already in darkness in order to fulfil the lust of the flesh...
True - when we walk in the Spirit, we will NOT fulfil the lust of the flesh - but the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit lusteth against the flesh - these two are contrary to one another so that sometimes we cannot do the good we want to do.
James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I never said you did....and hope I did not give that impression....[/QUOTE]
And we are to put on the new man - laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save our souls. We are to walk in obedience but when we have a sinful nature warring against our divine nature SOMETIMES our sin nature wins out. Until we are rid of this body of death - we will have this battle of "natures".
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Well, I don't think John McArthur's Commentary agrees with your way of thinking.
How so? It sounds to me like he hit the nail on the head and we are in agreement.

There are three different versions of OSAS.
You seem to be somewhat obsessed with this topic. There are multiple views of NOSAS as well. Some people in the NOSAS camp believe that only a small percentage of people will end up doing so. Others in that camp believe that the majority of Christians will lose their salvation before the end of their life, as if continuing in faith is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and God will so easily allow us to slip through his fingers. I once heard someone from the NOSAS camp claim that about 95% of genuine born again Christians will end up losing their salvation. That same person also said that if you sin at all then you don't yet know the Lord. He taught sinless perfection. Some in the NOSAS camp equate losing salvation to a person walking on a tightrope in which suddenly they can slip off and it's over. Others equate it to someone walking down a road on a mountain with two high walls on both sides of the road. They would say that person is secure, but is still free to choice to climb over the wall to the other side. Those who teach that salvation is by works, such as Roman Catholics, Mormons, church of Christ etc.. believe NOSAS.

Classic OSAS teaches you can live like the devil and still be saved or that you can live holy and also serve yourself and sin. Clearly you are not of this viewpoint.
That is absolutely not my viewpoint.

Mid Range OSAS teaches that a person who practices sin does not know God. But the believer who might abide in one or two unrepentant sins and dies in those sins is saved. If I understand you correctly, you are making it seem like you believe this version of OSAS.
Abide as in continue to "practice" one or two unrepentant sins? That's not my view either.

For it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to fall out of fellowship with God whereby they needed a Savior. What makes you think you can partake in one sin and refuse to repent of it and then die in that sin thinking you are saved?
When did I say that?

For if you just commit one sin such such as murder, hate, lust, idolatry, lying, and or drunkenness, etc. and refuse to repent of that sin (under the conviction of the Spirit), then what set of verses do you justify such a thing?
When did I try to justify such a thing? You said in post #625 that God is not going to give up on someone who is struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it. Practicing sin is living, and breathing that sin as a way of life with no actual remorse. I agree! So what's the problem? Why all the accusations? You sound a little anxious to pin a label on me. You also mentioned in post #625 - 1 John 2:1 offers a solution for the brethren that do sin. They have an advocate named Jesus Christ. If they confess their sin to him, he is faithful and just to forgive them their sim. Yes, Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father and believers continue to confess their sin. The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does, to acknowledge His perspective about our sins. It's an ongoing acknowledgment, not a one time event. 1 John 2:1 doesn't mean that every time we sin we lose our salvation until we confess each specific sin in order to regain salvation all over again.

For you have to realize that I believe the other verses in 1 John 1, too. I also believe John is warning the brethren about the false sessionists beliefs, too. So this is not a reason to interpret 1 John 1:9 beyond what it plainly says.
I'm simply interpreting 1 John 1:9 in light of it's context, particular the verses before and after verse 9.

OSAS Lite teaches that if you practice sin and or refuse to repent of your sins, you never knew God to begin with.
That's what I believe. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:7-10.

I believe in the Biblical Conditional View of Salvation. So naturally I am against all forms of OSAS. But I believe only OSAS Lite are those who I can truly call my brothers or sisters. Why? Because they do not make excuses for sin.
Then you can truly call me your brother in Christ. Don't forget that many unbelievers believe NOSAS. While growing up in the Roman Catholic church, I was beat over the head with that doctrine.

Again, I will ask you. How are you cleansed (forgiven) of sin by confessing your sins as per 1 John 1:9? Does the verse say you can refuse to confess of one or two sins?
Confess our sins per 1 John 1:9 does not mean that we refuse to confess one or two sins and continue to practice those one or two sins. That is not confessing our sins.

If there is sin on your record and it needs to be cleansed, then how are you cleansed of it?
Don't forget about the blood of Christ and whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 10:43). Don't turn this into sinless perfection on our part takes care of sin on our record. Believers practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 1:9,10). Believers confess their sins IN CONTRAST TO - saying they have no sin or have not sinned (1 John 1:8-10).

Remember, he that walks in the Light as He is in the Light is cleansed of the blood of Jesus Christ. If one is abiding in just ONE sin, and or if they comitted ONE sin and did not think it was all that big of deal, then they are not walking in the Light.
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

Compare "does not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever "does not practice righteousness is not of God," nor is he who does not love his brother.

Now compare "is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother" with 1 John 2:9 - He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Descriptive of children of the devil, not children of God.

Now, can a person make a general acknowledgment of sin (Because they have many sins they need to be forgiven of)? Yes, they can. This is for the new convert or the believer who comes back to the faith from having backslidden into sin. They acknowledge their sin generally and turn from it. But if a believer commits adultery and then goes on about their life confessing other sins but refuses to confess of that sin (Especially under the conviction of the Spirit), then how are they saved?
We ALL need to be forgiven of ALL of our sins. That's why we need a Savior. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Galatians 5:19-21 answers your question about someone who is practicing adultery. No remorse, no repentance, just bring it on, continuous action, is the opposite of confessing the sin of adultery.

They are refusing to be truly sorrowful before God about all the evil in their life.
Which is not confessing their sin. They are not saying the same thing about that sin as God does, to acknowledge His perspective about their sin.

So I am sorry. I am not buying your interpretation of 1 John 1:9.
How is my interpretation of 1 John 1:9 so much different from yours? As long as you don't believe that every time we sin we lose our salvation until we confess that specific sin in order to regain our salvation, we don't have a problem. When I said that I believe John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in 1 John 1:9 (since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.") I wasn't implying that when we sin, we simply sweep it under the rug and don't confess it. We continue to acknowledge or agree with God about our sin. ALL of our sin. This is ongoing. The opposite of confessing our sin would be no remorse, no repentance, just bring it on! Willful habitual lifestyle, continuous action.

Sin is a very serious matter. For sin put Jesus Christ on the cross.
Yes, I know. Do you claim to be sinless 100% of the time? Sin is not always what we do but also what we don't do. James 4:17 - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James also said - For we all stumble in many things (James 3:2). ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). We are ALL sinners who need a Savior (Romans 6:23).
 
B

BradC

Guest
No, Jesus Christ illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples. That is what I did. Used a real world example like Jesus had done. But the OSAS version that says you can sin and still be saved cannot be illustrated using a real world example. Why? Because it has no basis in reality and is not true.
Eccl 7:20

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

This from a man who applied his heart to know wisdom and to have understanding. Here we see a just man that doeth good and sinneth not. How can that be? This is not a justification for just men to do sin but an observation that just men do sin. This man who applied his heart to know wisdom mentions nothing of the just man in (ECCL) about confessing, turning, repenting or abhoring his sin. You would think that with all the wisdom that was given to him by God that we would read something about the wisdom of the just man doing something about his sin, but we don't.

Just so that you can see that the fear of the Lord IS reverential trust in the words of the Lord, here are some verses that you should consider...

Ps 33:8, 34:11, 111:10, Prov 1:7, 29, 2:5, 15:33, 19:23, 23:17, 29:25, Acts 9:31 and...

Prov 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.
 
B

BradC

Guest
[TABLE="align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Forty Things God Provides
Every Believer at the Moment of Salvation

1. The believer resides in the eternal plan of God
(shares the destiny of Christ). He is
a. Foreknown: Acts 2:23; Rom. 8:29; 1 Pet. 1:2;
b. Elected: Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4;
Titus 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:2;
c. Predestined: Rom. 8:29–30; Eph. 1:5, 11;
d. Chosen: Matt. 22:14; 1 Pet. 2:4;
e. Called: 1 Thess. 5:24.
2. The believer is reconciled (removal of the barrier
between man and God)1
a. By God: 2 Cor. 5:18–19; Col. 1:20;
b. To God: Rom. 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 2:14–17.
3. The believer is redeemed (purchased from the slave
market of sin):2
Rom. 3:24; Col. 1:14; 1 Pet. 1:18.
4. The believer’s condemnation (eternal judgment) is
removed: John 3:18; 5:24; Rom. 8:1.
5. All sins are judged by the substitutionary spiritual
death of Christ on the cross: Rom. 4:25; Eph. 1:7;
1 Pet. 2:24.
6. Every believer receives propitiation for sins (God
satisfied with the work of His Son): Rom. 3:25–26;
1 John 2:2; 4:10.
7. The believer is dead to old life (old sin nature), but
alive to God (retroactive positional truth). He is
a. Crucified with Christ: Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20;
b. Dead with Christ: Rom. 6:8; Col. 3:3; 1 Pet.
2:24;
c. Buried with Christ: Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12;
d. Raised with Christ: Rom. 6:4; 7:4; Col. 2:12;
3:1.
8. The believer is free from the Mosaic Law. He is
a. Dead to the Law: Rom. 7:4;
b. Delivered: Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6–11; Gal.
3:25.
9. The believer is regenerated: John 13:10; 1 Cor.
6:11; Titus 3:5. He is
a. Born again: John 3:7; 1 Pet. 1:23;
b. A child of God: Rom. 8:16; Gal. 3:26;
c. A son of God: John 1:12; 2 Cor. 6:18; 1 John
3:2;
d. A new creation: 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph.
2:10.
10. The believer is adopted by God (placed as adult
sons because of positional truth): Rom. 8:15; 8:23
(future); Eph. 1:5.
11. The believer is made acceptable to God: Eph. 1:6;
1 Pet. 2:5. He is
a. Made righteous (imputation): Rom. 3:22; 1 Cor.
1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9;
b. Sanctified positionally: 1 Cor. 1:30; 6:11;
c. Perfected forever: Heb. 10:14;
d. Qualified for inheritance: Col. 1:12.
12. The believer is justified (declared righteous): Rom.
3:24; 5:1, 9; 8:30; 1 Cor. 6:11; Titus 3:7.
13. The believer receives the unique availability of
divine power: 2 Pet. 1:3.
14. The believer is guaranteed a heavenly citizenship
based on reconciliation: Luke 10:20; Eph. 2:14–19;
Phil. 3:20.
15. The believer is delivered from the kingdom of
Satan: Col. 1:13a; 2:15.
16. The believer is transferred into the kingdom of
God: Col. 1:13b.
17. The believer is now on a secure foundation: 1 Cor.
3:11; 10:4; Eph. 2:20.
18. Every believer is a gift from God the Father to
Christ: John 10:29; 17:2, 6, 9, 11–12, 24.
19. The believer is positionally delivered from the
power of the sin nature: Rom. 8:2; Phil. 3:3;
Col. 2:11.
20. Every believer is appointed a priest unto God. We
are
a. A holy priesthood: 1 Pet. 2:5, 9;
b. A royal priesthood: 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6.
21. The believer receives eternal security: John
10:28–29; Rom. 8:32, 38–39; Gal. 3:26; 2 Tim.
2:13.
22. The believer is given access to God: Rom. 5:2;
Eph. 2:18; Heb. 4:16; 10:19–20.


[/TD]
[TD]23. Every believer is within the “much more” grace
care of God: Rom. 5:9–10. We are
a. Objects of His love: Eph. 2:4; 5:2;
b. Objects of His grace(1) For salvation: Eph. 2:8–9;
(2) For keeping: Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 1:5;
(3) For service: John 17:18; Eph. 4:7;
(4) For instruction: Titus 2:12;
c. Objects of His power: Eph. 1:19; Phil. 2:13;
d. Objects of His faithfulness: Phil. 1:6; Heb.
13:5b;
e. Objects of His peace: John 14:27;
f. Objects of His consolation: 2 Thess. 2:16;
g. Objects of His intercession: Rom. 8:34; Heb.
7:25; 9:24.
24. The believer is beneficiary of an inheritance as
heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ: Rom. 8:17;
Eph. 1:14, 18; Col. 3:24; Heb. 9:15; 1 Pet. 1:4.
25. Every believer has a new position in Christ: Eph.
2:6. We are
a. Partners with Christ in life: Col. 3:4;
b. Partners with Christ in service: 1 Cor. 1:9
(1) Workers together with God: 1 Cor. 3:9;
2 Cor. 6:1;
(2) Servants of the New Covenant: 2 Cor. 3:6;
(3) Ambassadors: 2 Cor. 5:20;
(4) Living epistles: 2 Cor. 3:3;
(5) Servants of God: 2 Cor. 6:4.
26. Believers are recipients of eternal life: John 3:15;
10:28; 20:31; 1 John 5:11–12.
27. The believer is created a new spiritual species:
2 Cor. 5:17.
28. The believer is a light in the Lord (part of the
angelic conflict):3
Eph. 5:8; 1 Thess. 5:4–5.
29. The believer is united with the Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit. We are
a. In God: 1 Thess. 1:1; cf., “God in you,” Eph.
4:6;
b. In Christ: John 14:20; cf., “Christ in you,” Col.
1:27
(1) A member in His Body: 1 Cor. 12:13;
(2) A branch in the Vine: John 15:5;
(3) A stone in the Building: Eph. 2:21–22;
1 Pet. 2:5;
(4) A sheep in the Flock: John 10:27–29;
(5) A portion of His Bride: Eph. 5:25–27; Rev.
19:6–8; 21:9;
(6) A priest of the kingdom of priests: 1 Pet.
2:9;
c. In the Holy Spirit: Rom. 8:9; “the Spirit in you.”
30. Every believer is the recipient of the ministries of
the Holy Spirit. He is
a. Born of the Spirit: John 3:5–8;
b. Baptized with the Spirit: Acts 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:13;
c. Indwelt by the Spirit: John 7:39; Rom. 5:5; 8:9;
1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19; Gal. 4:6; 1 John 3:24;
d. Sealed by the Spirit: 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 4:30;
e. Given spiritual gifts: 1 Cor. 12:11, 27–31;
13:1–2.
31. The believer is glorified: Rom. 8:30.
32. The believer is complete in Christ: Col. 2:10.
33. The believer is possessor of every spiritual blessing
granted in eternity past: Eph. 1:3.
34. The believer receives a human spirit (an integral
component of Operation Z, along with the Holy
Spirit): Rom. 8:16; 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Cor. 7:13;
1 Thess. 5:23.
35. The believer has all sins and transgressions blotted
out:4
Isa. 43:25; 44:22.
36. The believer is the recipient of efficacious grace:
Eph. 1:13.
37. The believer is guaranteed a resurrection body
forever: 1 Cor. 15:40–54.
38. The believer is the beneficiary of unlimited
atonement: 2 Cor. 5:14–15, 19; 1 Tim. 2:6; 4:10;
Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:2.
39. The believer has equal privilege and equal
opportunity under election and predestination:
Rom. 12:3; Eph. 3:16–19.
One Revocable Thing
40. The believer is filled with the Holy Spirit at the
moment of salvation: Gal. 3:3.
The filling of the Holy Spirit received at salvation
is revoked when the believer sins. The filling of the
Holy Spirit is recovered when the believer
rebounds[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Jul 22, 2014
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How so? It sounds to me like he hit the nail on the head and we are in agreement.
My apologies. You are right. I looked at the last part of what he wrote again in that commentary and I did some more investigating on John MacArthur and what he believes on OSAS. This is taken from an article (With sources from John's written works).

John MacArthur's Belief About Sin
and Temptation Unmasked​


Brace yourself for the other side of John MacArthur's sin teaching in the life of a Christian, which is also connected with eternal security and the false version of saving faith and grace it has produced:
... sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ... (The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)

Temptation also works for our good.
The main reason is that it makes us depend on God .... Temptation also works for our good because it makes us desire heaven.(Coming Face to Face with His Majesty, p. 118).

God promises that all things will ultimately work out for our good, and that includes the worst thing of all: sin.
His promise doesn't lessen the ugliness of sin or the beauty of holiness. Sin is intrinsically wicked and deserving of eternal hell. But in His infinite wisdom God overrules it for our good. (ibid., p. 119, italics his)

Although God sovereignly causes our sin to work for good, we should never view that wonderful promise as a license to sin. (ibid., p. 119)

IMPORTANT: Reader, did you know that John MacArthur, who gives the illusion of teaching holy living at times, proclaims a Christian's sin works for his good? Wouldn't you like to hear him tell us how sin worked personal good in the lives of Adam and Eve, Ananias and Sapphira, King David, Saul, Solomon, Hymenaeus, Philetus, the people of Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29, Judas, etc.? Moreover, if temptation really works for our good, then why did Jesus tell us to pray not to be led into temptation (Mt. 6:13)? To believe this Calvinistic/eternal security lie that sin and temptation work good is surely to teach a license for immorality, just as Jude said (Jude 3,4), even though flatly denied by John MacArthur!

The John MacArthur Study Bible​


In his so-called "study" Bible John MacArthur also exposes his deadly teachings about sin in the life of a Christian:

No sin a believer can commit - past, present, or future - can be held against him
,
since the penalty was paid by Christ and righteousness was imputed to the believer. And no sin will ever reverse this divine legal decision .... (p. 1706, his comment on Rom. 8:1)

Source:
JOHN MACARTHUR UNSCRIPTURAL Grace To You SAVING FAITH CALVINISM
(Please take note that I do not believe everything Dan Corner teaches or says; While I may agree with the article, I get the impression that he needs to love others more (Including his enemies)).

You seem to be somewhat obsessed with this topic.
Is it not important to make sure your sin is cleansed or forgiven properly? In other words, what I am saying is that I do not want Christians to minimize sin in their life and to water it down. If a believer commits a serious sin, they will naturally repent of that sin because God will convict to repent of it. They are not going to forget to confess of a grevious sin in their life.

There are multiple views of NOSAS as well. Some people in the NOSAS camp believe that only a small percentage of people will end up doing so. Others in that camp believe that the majority of Christians will lose their salvation before the end of their life, as if continuing in faith is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and God will so easily allow us to slip through his fingers. I once heard someone from the NOSAS camp claim that about 95% of genuine born again Christians will end up losing their salvation. That same person also said that if you sin at all then you don't yet know the Lord. He taught sinless perfection. Some in the NOSAS camp equate losing salvation to a person walking on a tightrope in which suddenly they can slip off and it's over. Others equate it to someone walking down a road on a mountain with two high walls on both sides of the road. They would say that person is secure, but is still free to choice to climb over the wall to the other side. Those who teach that salvation is by works, such as Roman Catholics, Mormons, church of Christ etc.. believe NOSAS.
There are two major different versions (or campes) of No-OSAS.

#1. Works Salvationists.
#2. Biblical Conditionalists.

The first one is false and the second one is true.

As for 95% of true born again Christians losing their salvation: Well, I am not God to know what the numbers are. But what I would not teach such a thing. What I do know is that is possible for those who received seed of the Word in their heart did not endure persecution and or get past the cares of the riches of this life. What I do know is that Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. What I do know is that the children of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness.

As for sinfless perfectionism: I do not believe that. David sinned and was a man after God's own heart. But David did not forget to confess his sin of murder and adultery, though. He confessed his sins before God. Yet, you said before that if one forgets to confess a sin, they are not toast. Yet David cried out to God not to take His Holy Spirit when he was confessing of his sin of murder and adultery.

That is absolutely not my viewpoint.
Do you believe future sin is forgiven? That a general acknowledgment of your sin is all that is needed? That if a seasoned believer does not need to confess if he fornicated with a woman per say. He does not need to specifically acknowledge this sin? Even if God is convicting to repent of it? Did not Adam and Eve fall by just one sin?

Abide as in continue to "practice" one or two unrepentant sins? That's not my view either.
I am glad. But is sin just cleansed by some general confession in every case?

When did I say that? When did I try to justify such a thing?
You essentially said forgetting to confess of a sin will not necessarily mean you are toast. Can you imagine if David forgot to confess of his sin of murder? Or his sin of adultery? What do you think would have happened if he just forgot to confess of those sins?

You said in post #625 that God is not going to give up on someone who is struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it. Practicing sin is living, and breathing that sin as a way of life with no actual remorse. I agree! So what's the problem? Why all the accusations? You sound a little anxious to pin a label on me.
Well, because people fall into certain camps of belief. When a person believes a certain way, then I can know how to answer them properly if I know what camp they are of. It is not to just label you (just to label you for no reason), but it is because folks have chosen a label for themselves by what they believe. Labels helps us to distinguish what is true and what is not true. Forgive me if the labels appears to be a little disrespectful. That is not my intention. I am merely trying to know what you believe.

1 John 2:1 offers a solution for the brethren that do sin. They have an advocate named Jesus Christ. If they confess their sin to him, he is faithful and just to forgive them their sim. Yes, Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father and believers continue to confess their sin. The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does, to acknowledge His perspective about our sins. It's an ongoing acknowledgment, not a one time event. 1 John 2:1 doesn't mean that every time we sin we lose our salvation until we confess each specific sin in order to regain salvation all over again.

I'm simply interpreting 1 John 1:9 in light of it's context, particular the verses before and after verse 9.

That's what I believe. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:7-10.
While I am not against a believer doing a general acknowledgment of their sin before God; For obviously that is how we came to the faith. We do not confess every single sin when we accepted Christ. But if a believer sins again (and it is a serious sin), they will know it and say to God that they are sorry they did such a thing. Confession of that sin does not have to always be a physical utterance of such and such sin (in every case), but a mental acknowledgment of that sin as they pour their hearts out to God in sorrow for a sin that they might have comimtted. In other words, David could not continue to refuse to ignore his sins of adultery and murder. His sins were brought to his attention whereby he needed to be broken before God about them.

Then you can truly call me your brother in Christ. Don't forget that many unbelievers believe NOSAS. While growing up in the Roman Catholic church, I was beat over the head with that doctrine.
Yes, I believe I do believe you are my brother in Christ. I have a very close fellow brother I used to work with (that I call a friend) (and in whom I trust), who believes the same way. We have had some heated discussions (even concerning this topic), but we always came back and loved each other and had great and deep spiritual conversations in the Lord later.

Confess our sins per 1 John 1:9 does not mean that we refuse to confess one or two sins and continue to practice those one or two sins. That is not confessing our sins.

Don't forget about the blood of Christ and whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 10:43). Don't turn this into sinless perfection on our part takes care of sin on our record. Believers practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 1:9,10). Believers confess their sins IN CONTRAST TO - saying they have no sin or have not sinned (1 John 1:8-10).
Please do not take this the wrong way, but what you are telling me here is very confusing. On one hand you say that a believer cannot refuse to repent of one or two sins, and yet on the other hand you said a believer forgetting a sin will not necessarily mean they are toast.

You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
Yes, confessing sins (Individually as they arise is not in conflict with those passages). Obviously if a person is a mute, they will confess in a different way. In their mind they will express their sorrow for God over this sin. They will picture this sin in their mind and seek God's forgiveness. So yes, I believe a person can say certain general words of sorrow and yet think of the sin that they have done wrong against God. But I do not think a believer will just forget about a serious sin. If they do, then God will bring it to their attention. If they refuse to repent of it, despite God convicting them to repent, then they are in trouble with God.

Compare "does not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever "does not practice righteousness is not of God," nor is he who does not love his brother.

Now compare "is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother" with 1 John 2:9 - He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Descriptive of children of the devil, not children of God.
I am aware of these comparisons. I have discussed them many times. But I do not see them as justification for a generalized acknowledgment of one's sins. Not unless they need to renew their faith from having backslid in the Lord (with many sins on their record). I believe sin is very serious to God and it should not be taken lightly. Yes, we mess up. But being open with God in what we do is the first step in being sorrowful. Hiding the truth is not the answer. Believers will not forget a sin that is serious. They will confess of it to God (Not with a certain phrase written by a church), but in their heart and mind they will see that sin and feel sorry about it and cry out to God to have mercy on them.

We ALL need to be forgiven of ALL of our sins. That's why we need a Savior. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Galatians 5:19-21 answers your question about someone who is practicing adultery. No remorse, no repentance, just bring it on, continuous action, is the opposite of confessing the sin of adultery.

Which is not confessing their sin. They are not saying the same thing about that sin as God does, to acknowledge His perspective about their sin.

How is my interpretation of 1 John 1:9 so much different from yours? As long as you don't believe that every time we sin we lose our salvation until we confess that specific sin in order to regain our salvation, we don't have a problem. When I said that I believe John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in 1 John 1:9 (since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.") I wasn't implying that when we sin, we simply sweep it under the rug and don't confess it. We continue to acknowledge or agree with God about our sin. ALL of our sin. This is ongoing. The opposite of confessing our sin would be no remorse, no repentance, just bring it on! Willful habitual lifestyle, continuous action.
I believe that a believer can be in favor with God and then fall away. However, the believer that did fall away had a spurious faith and not have a deep rooted relationship with the Lord and His Word. I believe a person still has free will when they are a believer. I believe a person can for a short time please the Lord and then do things that will break that fellowship. Adam and Eve is such an example. They broke fellowship with God whereby they needed a Savior. Spiritual death had effected them and all their descendants.

Yes, I know. Do you claim to be sinless 100% of the time? Sin is not always what we do but also what we don't do. James 4:17 - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James also said - For we all stumble in many things (James 3:2). ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). We are ALL sinners who need a Savior (Romans 6:23).
As I stated before, there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16).

Sin that lead unto death are the sins that Paul and John had listed.

Sin that does not lead unto death are hidden or secret faults, and falling short of the glory of God.

But I am saved not on the basis of my own righteousness. No, no. Most certainly not. At this very second, I am saved by believing on Jesus Christ as my Savior and trusting in what He did for me. If I sin again, I confess that sin and strive to forsake it with God's help and not of my own power. For Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of my faith. I cannot save myself. Jesus is the one who saves. He is the Savior; Not me. I merely choose to walk with Jesus. In this walk, holiness and fruitful works naturally result as a part of this relationship.
 
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BradC

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Jason, your whole problem with salvation is that you do not think it is perfect and complete. You believe that salvation requires more than to be simply believed upon. You believe it requires repentance and confession of sin. For you the cross is not enough in dealing with man's sin, you believe that man must repent and confess sin for salvation to be complete in man. For you, faith is not enough or the means by which we are saved, we must do something in relationship to sin or it does not work for sinful man. You believe that we have to do something in and of ourselves in relationship to our sin for grace to be able to save us.

You believe that our confession and repentance of sin has to match up with the grace of God or we are not saved by it or kept by the power of God through it. For you the gospel of Christ and him crucified it not the power of God unto salvation if repentance and confession of sin does not take place. You believe that the power is in our repentance and confession of sin and not in the power of the resurrected life of the risen Lord. For you, faith could be taken out of the picture as long as the sinner repented and confessed his sin. For what good is faith in the cross of Christ if their is no confession or repentance of sin.

Let's rewrite the sciptures and say this, 'Repent and confess your sin and you shall be saved'. 'For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever repents and confesses their sin shall not perish but have everlasting life'. ''If thou shalt confess with your mouth your sins and repent in your heart, thou shalt be saved'. 'For with the heart man repents unto righteousness and with the moth confession is made of sins unto salvation'. These verses show how your Bible should read and this is the understanding that you want us to subscribe to through repentance and confession of sin.

There is no room for faith or grace in your Bible and the blood of Christ and has no power to justify the sinner or cleanse the sinner from sin without repentance or confession of sin. In your Bible, simply faith in the cross of Christ is not enough to cleanse the sinner and make him a new creature in Christ once and forever. The following two verses of inspired scripture needs to be rewritten in your Bible because the confession part is all wrong.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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In response to John 3:16 - so is John 3:16 true or false?

Who said anything about NO obedience? BUT obedience does not bring one salvation - faith in Jesus Christ brings salvation - salvation brings about obedience. NO ONE can walk the walk WITHOUT the holy Spirit so one must be born again before they can walk the walk.
No one "earns" salvation by keeping the Law but, can God put conditions on whom He gives salvation to?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He already has one lawless entity running around trying to destroy all things, how many more do you suppose He wants? Uh, maybe NONE.
 
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BradC

Guest
No one "earns" salvation by keeping the Law but, can God put conditions on whom He gives salvation to?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He already has one lawless entity running around trying to destroy all things, how many more do you suppose He wants? Uh, maybe NONE.
To you we don't earn salvation by keeping the commandments but we keep salvation conditionally through keeping the commandments. Interesting!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Please take note that I am not saying all OSAS believers are alike. There are three different versions of OSAS. There are those who think they can live like the devil and be saved or that they can serve two masters by living holy and in serving themselves or sin. Then there is Mid Range OSAS which says that if you practice sin, you do not know God or have salvation. However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins does not necessarily mean you are not saved. Then there is OSAS lite. This teaches that if you abide in unrepentant sin, then you never knew God to begin with. I believe in the Biblical Condtional View. That you have to repent and forsake your sins to be right with God. For 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. 1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Jesus' first words in his ministry were "Repent." Scripture teaches that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. This is is a Condition. If you don't believe that verse is conditional, then please explain it for the rest of us.
I guess you will need to figure out the difference between conditions and results. A Christian walks the way he walks because of his relationship with Christ. It is a result of his love for Christ.

When a sinner comes to know Christ he begins to learn to love Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Jason, your whole problem with salvation is that you do not think it is perfect and complete. You believe that salvation requires more than to be simply believed upon. You believe it requires repentance and confession of sin. For you the cross is not enough in dealing with man's sin, you believe that man must repent and confess sin for salvation to be complete in man. For you, faith is not enough or the means by which we are saved, we must do something in relationship to sin or it does not work for sinful man. You believe that we have to do something in and of ourselves in relationship to our sin for grace to be able to save us.

You believe that our confession and repentance of sin has to match up with the grace of God or we are not saved by it or kept by the power of God through it. For you the gospel of Christ and him crucified it not the power of God unto salvation if repentance and confession of sin does not take place. You believe that the power is in our repentance and confession of sin and not in the power of the resurrected life of the risen Lord. For you, faith could be taken out of the picture as long as the sinner repented and confessed his sin. For what good is faith in the cross of Christ if their is no confession or repentance of sin.

Let's rewrite the sciptures and say this, 'Repent and confess your sin and you shall be saved'. 'For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever repents and confesses their sin shall not perish but have everlasting life'. ''If thou shalt confess with your mouth your sins and repent in your heart, thou shalt be saved'. 'For with the heart man repents unto righteousness and with the moth confession is made of sins unto salvation'. These verses show how your Bible should read and this is the understanding that you want us to subscribe to through repentance and confession of sin.

There is no room for faith or grace in your Bible and the blood of Christ and has no power to justify the sinner or cleanse the sinner from sin without repentance or confession of sin. In your Bible, simply faith in the cross of Christ is not enough to cleanse the sinner and make him a new creature in Christ once and forever. The following two verses of inspired scripture needs to be rewritten in your Bible because the confession part is all wrong.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 John 1:9 is in context to 1 John 2:1. If we (the believers) sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ.

For what are you forgiven of in 1 John 1:9? What does the passage say you are forgiven of if you confess? What are you cleansed of in 1 John 1:9? It's simple. Don't complicate it. Just believe what 1 John 1:9 says. Don't add to it.
 
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I guess you will need to figure out the difference between conditions and results. A Christian walks the way he walks because of his relationship with Christ. It is a result of his love for Christ.

When a sinner comes to know Christ he begins to learn to love Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That's great that you feel you have a desire to want to love Christ personally in your own life, but if you teach that others can sin and still be saved, then that is teaching a license to sin; Which leads to others being a slave to their sin (With no real motivation or desire to change because there is no real consequence in not changing).
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Jason, your whole problem with salvation is that you do not think it is perfect and complete. You believe that salvation requires more than to be simply believed upon. You believe it requires repentance and confession of sin. For you the cross is not enough in dealing with man's sin, you believe that man must repent and confess sin for salvation to be complete in man. For you, faith is not enough or the means by which we are saved, we must do something in relationship to sin or it does not work for sinful man. You believe that we have to do something in and of ourselves in relationship to our sin for grace to be able to save us.

You believe that our confession and repentance of sin has to match up with the grace of God or we are not saved by it or kept by the power of God through it. For you the gospel of Christ and him crucified it not the power of God unto salvation if repentance and confession of sin does not take place. You believe that the power is in our repentance and confession of sin and not in the power of the resurrected life of the risen Lord. For you, faith could be taken out of the picture as long as the sinner repented and confessed his sin. For what good is faith in the cross of Christ if their is no confession or repentance of sin.

Let's rewrite the sciptures and say this, 'Repent and confess your sin and you shall be saved'. 'For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever repents and confesses their sin shall not perish but have everlasting life'. ''If thou shalt confess with your mouth your sins and repent in your heart, thou shalt be saved'. 'For with the heart man repents unto righteousness and with the moth confession is made of sins unto salvation'. These verses show how your Bible should read and this is the understanding that you want us to subscribe to through repentance and confession of sin.

There is no room for faith or grace in your Bible and the blood of Christ and has no power to justify the sinner or cleanse the sinner from sin without repentance or confession of sin. In your Bible, simply faith in the cross of Christ is not enough to cleanse the sinner and make him a new creature in Christ once and forever. The following two verses of inspired scripture needs to be rewritten in your Bible because the confession part is all wrong.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Side Note: Please take not that if I feel you are condescending or insulting while rambling on about your own personal beliefs (with no Scripture), I will glaze over it and not read it. I will only read what Scripture verses you have posted and points that back it up. So when you say things like, "Jason, your whole problem..." I then just will tune out the rest of what you had written and look for verses within your post. In other words, you are wasting your efforts in this type of communication. Show me what the Bible says. Don't insult me. Don't say I have a problem. Don't share what you believe. Stick to the Bible.
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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That's great that you feel you have a desire to want to love Christ personally in your own life, but if you teach that others can sin and still be saved, then that is teaching a license to sin; Which leads to others being a slave to their sin (With no real motivation or desire to change because there is no real consequence in not changing).
You are always making assumptions based on how you would respond in any given situation. You are imputing to the scriptures your prejudices.

How a Christian behaves is Gods business not yours. I should think you would have your hands full just keeping you own nose clean.

Without wisdom there can be no understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jul 22, 2014
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To you we don't earn salvation by keeping the commandments but we keep salvation conditionally through keeping the commandments. Interesting!
Keeping the Commandments is a result of salvation. It is not done for salvation. There is a difference. Waves are a product of wind and or disturbance within the water. God is like the wind in this case. If there is a wave, it is because there is wind or some kind of thing that is causing the water to be moved. It's the same point with the topic of salvation. If God truly lives within a person, then God's good works will flow thru that person's life. But if there is no God living within them, then there is no salvation and or no change in their life for the better.
 
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You are always making assumptions based on how you would respond in any given situation. You are imputing to the scriptures your prejudices.

How a Christian behaves is Gods business not yours. I should think you would have your hands full just keeping you own nose clean.

Without wisdom there can be no understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus said we can know a false prophet (i.e. false believer) by their fruits. A false believer teaches false doctrine, so the doctrine will be flawed and can be seen to bring forth bad fruit and not good fruit. One does not even have to test it out. One can look at real life and compare their false doctrine with a real world example to see if it holds up to the truth or not. OSAS cannot be made into a real life example; And Jesus illustrated real life examples so as to show spiritual truth. In other words, if what you say is even remotely true, then you would have given me a real world example of OSAS to show it's truthfulness. But I know you will not do that, though; For OSAS cannot be made into a real world example.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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No one "earns" salvation by keeping the Law but, can God put conditions on whom He gives salvation to?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He already has one lawless entity running around trying to destroy all things, how many more do you suppose He wants? Uh, maybe NONE.
HUH???????? :confused:
 
A

Anomaly1964

Guest
Once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved, ALL sins forgiven. What sin can you commit AFTER salvation that is not covered...?

We can be out of FELLOWSHIP but never out of His grace once saved...
 
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BradC

Guest
Side Note: Please take not that if I feel you are condescending or insulting while rambling on about your own personal beliefs (with no Scripture), I will glaze over it and not read it. I will only read what Scripture verses you have posted and points that back it up. So when you say things like, "Jason, your whole problem..." I then just will tune out the rest of what you had written and look for verses within your post. In other words, you are wasting your efforts in this type of communication. Show me what the Bible says. Don't insult me. Don't say I have a problem. Don't share what you believe. Stick to the Bible.
Your up to your old tricks again. You told me on another post that no verses were given and I went back and gave you all the verses to support the post and you said nothing. I have given you many verses and you just get subjective and respond with no relevancy or you get rhetorical. Telling you that you do not understand is not an insult, it is a fact because you have not been taught not have you sat under a pastor-teacher to the hear the word and doctrine preached. That is an imperative to all believers. I know what your response will be on this for it is so common.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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To you we don't earn salvation by keeping the commandments but we keep salvation conditionally through keeping the commandments. Interesting!
Well, perhaps you can explain why Jesus Christ Himself said to keep the Commandments.