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smithbr8

Guest
#42


Just give it up and come to the table of discussion.


And yet not a single answer to the question? How is it any different than us telling others they can't pick and choose parts of the Scripture? That they're not "real Christians" if they do that? Why can some people do that and not others?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#43
And yet not a single answer to the question?
I'm not going to give you pearls when you are trolling at this point in time.

Trolling only hurts your cause, you have legiitimate and good questions to ask but you hurt your own cause when you troll.

There is a chair waiting for you at the table of discussion.
 
S

smithbr8

Guest
#44
I'm not going to give you pearls when you are trolling at this point in time.

Trolling only hurts your cause, you have legiitimate and good questions to ask but you hurt your own cause when you troll.

There is a chair waiting for you at the table of discussion.
Question- WHY IS IT DIFFERENT FROM TELLING OTHERS THEY CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH SCRIPTURE THEY CAN FOLLOW?

Sorry, didn't realize I had to dumb it down to that point. Thought asking the same EXACT question 3 times would be enough.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#45
Sorry, didn't realize I had to dumb it down to that point. Thought asking the same EXACT question 3 times would be enough.
You will continue to not get an answer as long as you refuse the table of discussion.

Are you done trolling?
 
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smithbr8

Guest
#46
You will continue to not get an answer as long as you refuse the table of discussion.

Are you done trolling?
Oh great Jimmydiggs- I accept thee as my personal Savior for thou art the greatest and the wisest. Please bestow upon me thy teachings. I walk to your table of discussion as thou hast placed thyself as a better Christian than me.

Whatever.

Now.

How is it any different that telling people that they can't pick and choose from the Scripture?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#47
Oh great Jimmydiggs- I accept thee as my personal Savior for thou art the greatest and the wisest.Please bestow upon me thy teachings. I walk to your table of discussion as thou hast placed thyself as a better Christian than me.

Whatever.

Now.
This is not at all what I am asking for, and you continue to demonstrate a lack of willingness.


You are doing so much better in the other thread. Why are you doing this here?
 
S

smithbr8

Guest
#48
This is not at all what I am asking for, and you continue to demonstrate a lack of willingness.


You are doing so much better in the other thread. Why are you doing this here?
Because I'm really not sure how many other ways I can ask the exact same question. Why is it any different?

How many ways can you ask "What color is a fire truck"?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#49
Because I'm really not sure how many other ways I can ask the exact same question. Why is it any different?

How many ways can you ask "What color is a fire truck"?
This is getting much better. Thank you. I greatly appreciate it.

Now, regarding the issue of picking and choosing and the authenticity of one's claim to being a Christian.

It would be inconsistant for a person to say, "you are not a Christian due to picking and choosing."

That is not what brings about nor what negates ones salvation.

The problem is much more nuanced than that though. In other words, it's much more delicate.

The problem in and of itself isn't the picking and choosing, although it is a problem in and of itself of antoher sort. The problem is what specifically you are dealing with. For example, you want to be able to believe that homosexual relations are perfectly permissible before God, or so it seems based on your previous posts. In doing so, you seek to harmonize scripture with what you want to believe. This is wrong regarding seeking an understanding of the text. The question we should be asking ourselves is, "What does the author say?" rather than, "so, what can I make it say?" The problem specifically with homosexuality is that it would be advocating willful unrepentent sin. This does not feed into, but rather extends out of a lack of regeneration in most cases.

EDIT:I'm not asking you to agree with me, but does that make sense?
 
S

smithbr8

Guest
#50
This is getting much better. Thank you. I greatly appreciate it.

Now, regarding the issue of picking and choosing and the authenticity of one's claim to being a Christian.

It would be inconsistant for a person to say, "you are not a Christian due to picking and choosing."

That is not what brings about nor what negates ones salvation.

The problem is much more nuanced than that though. In other words, it's much more delicate.

The problem in and of itself isn't the picking and choosing, although it is a problem in and of itself of antoher sort. The problem is what specifically you are dealing with. For example, you want to be able to believe that homosexual relations are perfectly permissible before God, or so it seems based on your previous posts. In doing so, you seek to harmonize scripture with what you want to believe. This is wrong regarding seeking an understanding of the text. The question we should be asking ourselves is, "What does the author say?" rather than, "so, what can I make it say?" The problem specifically with homosexuality is that it would be advocating willful unrepentent sin. This does not feed into, but rather extends out of a lack of regeneration in most cases.

EDIT:I'm not asking you to agree with me, but does that make sense?
And I understand where people read parts and say "God says this is wrong, so it's wrong" but within that same book, they ignore countless other rules because "they don't apply anymore" and THAT's where I have a huge problem with it. If the Lord truly doesn't want us to eat shellfish, wear clothes of 2 fibers, cut our lawn, eat, then fine. I will oblige, but to say "God didn't mean follow those rules because.....shut up." doesn't make sense.

If you don't agree with part of it, then how can you agree with other parts. Again, not YOU specifically, but Christians in general. Hence why I stated that No, Peter would not be Christian if he disagreed with parts of the Scripture. You can't agree with half of what God says and not the other half. Either it's ALL law EXACTLY as it's written, or it's ALL able to be interpreted and picked to pieces to determine which ones we actually HAVE to follow.

It was never an issue of being a troll. And I'll be honest, the fact that it took this long for you to answer a simple question- yes, it pissed me off to no end. Don't assume people are trolls just because they don't understand the entire universe and exactly how God's mind works.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#51
And I understand where people read parts and say "God says this is wrong, so it's wrong" but within that same book, they ignore countless other rules because "they don't apply anymore" and THAT's where I have a huge problem with it.
I concede that it is a very difficult issue to deal with, and I in times past (and probably in the future as well) have been guilty of the very thing you criticize.

There are "laws" of the OT that do apply, and some that do not. It is a difficult and complex issue though, because it deals with a system of Covenants.

It's also an issue not all Christians agree with each other on, which compounds the issue even further. It gives the atmosphere that it is totally arbitrary, and in many cases it unfortunately is.


If the Lord truly doesn't want us to eat shellfish, wear clothes of 2 fibers, cut our lawn, eat, then fine.
I have the same attitude.

I will oblige, but to say "God didn't mean follow those rules because.....shut up." doesn't make sense.
If they do just say, "because, shut up"... that is a problem, absolutely. I think this compounds the issue further yet, because often people do decide arbitrarily, which leaves them with little to no explanation. On top of that, those who arn't totally arbitrary often refuse or simply do not posses something (whether it be knowledge or safistication, etc) to explain the matter.

If you don't agree with part of it, then how can you agree with other parts.
It depends on the "guiding principle" as I would call it, as far as approaching it from a logical stand point.

For example, if I say people should be able to eat pork because all food is okay to eat... then turn around and say, "hey, you can't eat beef! that's not okay to eat!" without any further explaination as to how that is not a contradiction, then I am just as puzzled as you are most times.



Again, not YOU specifically, but Christians in general.
I assumed as much, but thank you for the clarification.

Hence why I stated that No, Peter would not be Christian if he disagreed with parts of the Scripture. You can't agree with half of what God says and not the other half. Either it's ALL law EXACTLY as it's written, or it's ALL able to be interpreted and picked to pieces to determine which ones we actually HAVE to follow.
Some of this is valid, and some of it is not.

Your concern and criticism of picking and choosing in general, yes, totally agree. I do not believe, however, and I believe scripture supports my belief, that all disagreements of scripture disqualify a person from being a Christian.

The easiest way I can put it is this:

There are primary issues, these are ones that if a person denis (such as the deity of Christ), then they are not a Christian.

Regarding deity of Christ:
1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

That I think should be a pretty clear cut verse, maybe tempered by it's context a bit more I will concede. That would be an example of a primary issue where scripture declares, "If you do not believe this, you are not a Christian."

There are secondary issues, these are issues that are very, very, very important but not necessarily at the point of disqualifying a person as a Christian.

An example of that would be some issues concerning soteriology, such as the old Calvinism Vs. Arminianism debate. Depending on how wrong someone is regarding soteriology (basically the mechanics of how one becomes saved), it could become a primary issue.

Then there are tertiary issues, that are important but not generally worth splitting a church over. What were the Nephilim? Is it pre-trib. or post-trib? Etc. etc.

It was never an issue of being a troll.
I will take your word for it and apologize. The problem is that whether you intend it or not, you often seem rather strongly to be trolling in certain issues. Especially those dealing with human sexuality and the like.

And I'll be honest, the fact that it took this long for you to answer a simple question- yes, it pissed me off to no end.
That was not my intention, for what it's worth.

Don't assume people are trolls just because they don't understand the entire universe and exactly how God's mind works.
I did not assume you were a troll for this reason.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#52
1. I don't have any problem with Jesus being God. I have lots of problems with a church that calls Mary the mother of God, the queen of heaven, and directs their prayer to her.
2. When people say their church is infallible they are placing their church in the place of God. That means they can't know the difference between mens opinions and Gods Truth because both are placed at the same level of importance.
3. I also agree that the rcc is not infallible.
4. Hypocritical?? I was showing that an infallible church had to be corrected. How can that be if they are infallible? Maybe you misunderstand the definition of infallible...
5. I suppose they trust their church over God. It equates to the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

If someone says that their church is the one true church they should have more proof than "because we say so".

I don't know what being American has to do with this. It is the country I was born in.

1.i think their line of logic is Jesus is god, Mary is the mother of Jesus, therefore, Mary is the mother of God, it sounds odd to me too, but you can't really criticize them
2. I'm sure if god told a catholic Mary wasn't perfect, they'd belive him
3.no rebuttal
4. Hypocritical because you said Catholics trust men, then you place your trust in martin luther(a man)
5. They dont( see#2)
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,090
191
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#53
Picking and choosing Scripture will be in vain.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#55
It is not that you lack sufficient truth, but that you fail to embrace the whole truth laid before you.



Easy, does it line up with what the Church teaches.
This is what I wanted to focus on. The CC teaches that it is the recipient of truth from Christ. This truth includes all of Scripture properly interpreted, as guided by the church and its traditions. It also believes that anyone who does not accept the traditions is not fit to be listened to on those items.

The traditions include such items as Mary never had any other children, and that she is now in heaven in her body. Also, that the the bread and wine used in communion, are upon words of the priest, changed into the physical body and blood of Christ, and only continue to look, feel, smell and taste like bread and wine. The traditions include also that all of these statements can be proven from Scripture, by methods that are not used by Protestants. The methods themselves are part of the extended "truth", since the truth includes that those methods are valid. The methods take different forms, but include that every doctrinal statement must be proved by multiple quotes, from Scripture, Fathers of the church, Papal directives if possible, and "sensum fideles" or "that is what we have always believed".

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm trying to translate between the two types of people here. I am not saying I disagree or agree with any of this.

Now, my question to Protestants, can you prove any of the methods themselves wrong? Until you do or are prepared to use the same methods, you have no audience among loyal Catholics.

My question to Catholics is, why should I not translate this whole business about Scriptural interpretation as "the Bible doesn't say what it looks like it says, but it says what we say it says"?
 
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webchatter

Guest
#56
(sorry I don't know how to copy/ paste quotes/ msgs) SantoSubito said: "Easy, does it line up with what the Church teaches."

That is the main problem you have, as do other denominations. This comment of yours, points out that you have been taught to replace the teachings of men with the FACTS of the Bible. You should be taught to believe & say instead, "Easy, does it line up with what the BIBLE teaches".
On another subject that was mentioned, in defense of Catholicism, The Bible does have Scripture pertaining to praying to the saints to intercede for us in prayer.(sorry I don't know where.) But the problem even with that is, the Catholic church teaches that SOMETIMES we are not worthy to pray directly to God, & I've never seen a Scripture to support that theory.
ALL DENOMINATIONS & CATHOLICS INCLUDED, SHOULD BE CHECKING THE BIBLE TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT IS BIBLICLY TRUE. MOST CATHOLICS RELY ON THE CHURCH TO TEACH THEM, INSTEAD OF THE BIBLE & HOLY SPIRIT.
I think it's a good idea to pray for guidance, then start reading the Biblle, KJV only, then start at page 1 & don't go back to church till u r done.
Is the FOUNDATION of your beliefs the Bible? If not, then how can you call yourself a "Christian"? (not u specifically, everyone).If your denomination is the foundation of your beliefs, then .......
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#57
Hardly, the title "Theotokos" (usually translated Mother of God) indicates that from the moment of his conception Christ was both fully God and fully man, and that his two natures are inseparable.

Arianism held that Christ was created by the Father and thus was a lesser God. This was rejected at the First Council of Nicaea, and is preserved today in the creed recited every Sunday in every Catholic parish.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
I believe in your recitation, also. But I don't go around calling Mary the mother of God and directing my prayers and the prayers of my family towards her.

You see how that can be counterproductive in the fight against Arianism?







Tis not, failing to discern the nature of God is probably the most damaging heresy ever to plague Christendom.
What you call heresy and what I think are heresy are two different things. We should probably try to come up with a different word for it.




Because the Church preaches the Truth given her by Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Verified by whom? No one except your church. Pretty convenient...

Say that to all the faithful Catholics over the years (me included) who have found rest in the Faith the Church proclaims.
I'll say it to anyone who places more importance on their physical building and their physical leaders than they do the Lord Jesus.




It's different by the way we go about it. No pentecostal group started in a Presbyterian church and then stayed under it's authority structure. Charismatic Catholics have to obey the same Church discipline we have to, they have to worship using the same liturgical rubrics we do, and obey their bishops just like we do. The reason for all this structure and rigidity, which people like you seem to disdain, is Lex orandi, lex credendi "That which is prayed is believed".
I actually like the structure and rigidity. That way I don't wonder if it is a trick of the pastor playing on my feelings. I know it must be the Holy Spirit.

What I don't like is the sense of superiority the catholic church and her parishioners seem to have over everyone else in the world. You know, "we can do it because we are infallible but everyone else is in error" attitude.




I'm aware of that.



What Dogma or Doctrine did he point out that we have since changed? You know we had a whole thing called the Counter-Reformation where instead of giving in we dug in our heels, handed out anathemas like crazy, and proclaimed a lot of dogma at the Council of Trent that closed the debate on things that had been debatable before.



I believe there were abuses of Church practice, such as selling indulgences when they were never meant to be sold.
Problems will arise when you call your church and its leaders infallible. I suppose that was the biggest error that Martin Luther showed the world. Your church is not infallible. It is made of men. I know you want it be. I wanted to be a professional football player. Some things we just have to let go.


Look into Martin Luther a little bit, and the reasons he did what he did become clearer. He was actually an extremely over-scrupulous man who was constantly afraid of demons and going to Hell.

Even the supposedly dramatic moment when Luther nailed his theses to the church door wasn't dramatic. The church door was like a bulletin board, and often times theologians would nail theses to the door they wanted to discuss with others.
Of course you are going to play down Luther, you have to, its what you were taught.

Well the easy answer is because it's true. The other easy answer is that people like to have all the answers, or an authority that can supply an authoritative answer if the question becomes important enough, and the Catholic Church offers that. Just think of it like this, your church could be overrun by liberals or any other group and they could take it in a direction very much opposed to what you had envisioned.

While in the Church such things are not a problem, if we have a bishop promoting gay marriage or abortion he gets excommunicated, and ultimately any liberal Catholics are fighting a lost cause because the Church has always pronounced both to be intrinsically evil and morally disordered, and once something is decided in the Church it is set in stone.

Come to think of it most of that can be distilled down to one phrase from St. Augustine: Roma locuta, causa finita ("Rome has spoken, the matter is settled").
That is exactly the distinction I was trying to raise.

The catholic church has placed themselves in the position of the Lord Jesus.

The only authority that can supply an authoritative answer is the Lord and His Word. Anything else is true heresy, and not the definition of heresy your church uses.

 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#58
1.i think their line of logic is Jesus is god, Mary is the mother of Jesus, therefore, Mary is the mother of God, it sounds odd to me too, but you can't really criticize them
2. I'm sure if god told a catholic Mary wasn't perfect, they'd belive him
3.no rebuttal
4. Hypocritical because you said Catholics trust men, then you place your trust in martin luther(a man)
5. They dont( see#2)
Are you sure you're not catholic?? Maybe orthodox or something along those lines?

1. I can and I do.
2. He has, they don't.
3. ...
4. I brought up Luther, not because I trust in him, but because he showed the catholic church that they are not infallible. That believing that they are infallible leads to corrupt men with corrupt minds taking advantage of the innoccent.
5. See #2
 
C

chesser

Guest
#59
Are you sure you're not catholic?? Maybe orthodox or something along those lines?

1. I can and I do.
2. He has, they don't.
3. ...
4. I brought up Luther, not because I trust in him, but because he showed the catholic church that they are not infallible. That believing that they are infallible leads to corrupt men with corrupt minds taking advantage of the innoccent.
5. See #2
1. Why? If Jesus is god, and Mary is the mother of Jesus( do you disagree with either of those?)
2. You were there? Please tell me all the details of how God appeared to the pope, did he come out of the sky, or speak from the clouds maybe? Or did he send a prophet on a chariot of fire perhaps?
3.
4. Well, a catholic could always say Luther was wrong
5. See2
Yes, I'm not catholic, see number 3 not orthodox either, though I find them closer to truth then the Catholics.( they don't have the more dangerous of the Mary doctrines, though they do keep some)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#60
1. Why? If Jesus is god, and Mary is the mother of Jesus( do you disagree with either of those?)
2. You were there? Please tell me all the details of how God appeared to the pope, did he come out of the sky, or speak from the clouds maybe? Or did he send a prophet on a chariot of fire perhaps?
3.
4. Well, a catholic could always say Luther was wrong
5. See2
Yes, I'm not catholic, see number 3 not orthodox either, though I find them closer to truth then the Catholics.( they don't have the more dangerous of the Mary doctrines, though they do keep some)
1. Like I said earlier, I don't have any problems with Jesus or Mary being the mother of Jesus. I have problems with people who pray to Mary calling her the mother of God and queen of heaven. Do you see?
2. We have the bible. We have lots of verses that contest what the catholics say about Mary.
3. I still agree with you agreeing with me on this one...
4. Ok. Which of Luthers 95 theses do you find incorrect?
5. see #2.