Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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well I never believed you in the first place. Lets see you dodge this one which you have ignored and is almost certainly imprimatur.
- This pray below is from anofficial Indonesian catholic web. It is in Indonesian, I give link below. If you click translate, they will automatically translate, though I believe the translation is not perfect. the title assumes a Submission prayer to Mary.
- Doa-Doa Kepada Bunda Maria - Ekaristi Dot Org
www.ekaristi.org/doa/dokumen.php?...
Translate this page
Doa Penyerahan Kepada Maria Madah Bakti, 1991, No. 52. Santa Maria, BundaTuhan kami Yesus Kristus, engkaulah Ratu dunia termulia. sudilah engkau ...You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 3/26/15
Delivery Prayer To Mary Hymns Bakti, 1991, No. 52Holy Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, thou art Queen's noblest. so good you became queen us all. Tunjukanlah to us the path to holiness and guide us so as not to get lost.
Take charge of our mind, so we're just looking for the right.
We will be over, so we just want good.
Take charge of our hearts, that we love one another as a brother.
Overcome ourselves each and all family members.
Overcome all members of society, every nation and world dignitaries.
May the strap you into them all in a firm unity.
Overcome all mankind.
Open to the path of faith for those who are not familiar with your Son, Jesus.
Help her to all nations united, harmonious and peaceful life.
Naungilah all mankind, especially the persecuted and hounded.
They bear it in oppression and enlighten those in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your son.
Hantarlah all our petition to thy Son, the Maharaja kingdom of peace, where every prayer of the petition is granted, every load lightened hearts and infirmities healed.
I hope people who know His power and put hope in Him. occasionally see the royal splendor of thy Son, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and power, now and all time. Amen
Originally Posted by valiant
well I never believed you in the first place. Lets see you dodge this one which you have ignored and is almost certainly imprimatur.
This prayer below is from anofficial Indonesian catholic web. It is in Indonesian, I give the link below. If you click translate, they will automatically translate, though I believe the translation is not perfect. the title assumes a Submission prayer to Mary.
This prayer below is from anofficial Indonesian catholic web. It is in Indonesian, I give the link below. If you click translate, they will automatically translate, though I believe the translation is not perfect. the title assumes a Submission prayer to Mary.
- Doa-Doa Kepada Bunda Maria - Ekaristi Dot Org
www.ekaristi.org/doa/dokumen.php?...
Translate this page
Doa Penyerahan Kepada Maria Madah Bakti, 1991, No. 52. Santa Maria, BundaTuhan kami Yesus Kristus, engkaulah Ratu dunia termulia. sudilah engkau ...You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 3/26/15
Delivery Prayer To MaryHymns Bakti, 1991, No.52Holy Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, thou art Queen's noblest. so good you became queen us all. Tunjukanlah to us the path to holiness and guide us so as not to get lost.
Take charge of our mind, so we're just looking for the right.
We will be over, so we just want good.
Take charge of our hearts, that we love one another as a brother.
Overcome ourselves each and all family members.
Overcome all members of society, every nation and world dignitaries.
May the strap you into them all in a firm unity.
Overcome all mankind.
Open to the path of faith for those who are not familiar with your Son, Jesus.
Help her to all nations united, harmonious and peaceful life.
Naungilah all mankind, especially the persecuted and hounded.
They bear it in oppression and enlighten those in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your son.
Hantarlah all our petition to thy Son, the Maharaja kingdom of peace, where every prayer of the petition is granted, every load lightened hearts and infirmities healed.
I hope people who know His power and put hope in Him. occasionally see the royal splendor of thy Son, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and power, now and all time. Amen
if you knew anything about translation you would know that some words are difficult to translate. That PROVES that it is a genuine translation.
Hardman did not say to me proof from the catechism. He said proof from an official document that had the imprimatur. But I expected you to change your ground. Just what one expects from Roman Catholicism.
You mean your dodging is getting worse and worse?
M
And both in the context of worshipping false Gods.
The question is where did Jesus get his ideas from since he came later.
The entireity prophesy heralds him as a davidic king - from the annunciation to Mary onwards, for example "riding on a donkey" as Solomon had done. So Jesus CHOSE to associate with davidic kings, and in the case of the donkey Solomon. Indeed the "keys of the kingdom" given to Peter are direct reference back to stewardship of the Davidic kings, the mother of a davidic King was called "queen" and the king gave her a throne and bowed to her, saying he would honour her requests. The mother of kings mentioned numerous times because of the role they had.
Just read the old testament to understand.
Proverbs 3-5 - " trust in the lord, and DO NOT RELY ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING - nothing to do with prophesy, all to do with private understanding.
I said psalms - bad memory - but the scripture is there in proverbs none the less.
In short - the pillar and foundation of truth is the church - and in cutting yourself off from history tradition and the church, with the false doctrine of sola scriptura, you end up with 10000 protestant different belief sets, drifting and fracturing yours just one more on the pile.
As for what you may or may not drag up from websites, Catholic belief is there in the catechism.
Unless phillipines prayers are there , which they are not, they are not catholic doctrine.
Challenge it on what it does believe. There in the catechism.
The question is where did Jesus get his ideas from since he came later.
The entireity prophesy heralds him as a davidic king - from the annunciation to Mary onwards, for example "riding on a donkey" as Solomon had done. So Jesus CHOSE to associate with davidic kings, and in the case of the donkey Solomon. Indeed the "keys of the kingdom" given to Peter are direct reference back to stewardship of the Davidic kings, the mother of a davidic King was called "queen" and the king gave her a throne and bowed to her, saying he would honour her requests. The mother of kings mentioned numerous times because of the role they had.
Just read the old testament to understand.
Proverbs 3-5 - " trust in the lord, and DO NOT RELY ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING - nothing to do with prophesy, all to do with private understanding.
I said psalms - bad memory - but the scripture is there in proverbs none the less.
In short - the pillar and foundation of truth is the church - and in cutting yourself off from history tradition and the church, with the false doctrine of sola scriptura, you end up with 10000 protestant different belief sets, drifting and fracturing yours just one more on the pile.
As for what you may or may not drag up from websites, Catholic belief is there in the catechism.
Unless phillipines prayers are there , which they are not, they are not catholic doctrine.
Challenge it on what it does believe. There in the catechism.
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'You are petros and on this petra I will build my church.' If Jesus meant Peter why did He not use the same noun? And why did He say 'on this petra' instead of 'on you'? ANSWER. Because petra was referring to the statement that Peter had made. It is called a play on words. The foundation of the true church of Jesus Christ is 'you are the Christ the Son of the living God.'
That is why Mark and Luke writing about the same incident omit mention of the words to Peter. If they were as important as you try to claim, why would they do that? They did it because they recognised that the important lesson from the passage was the statement YOU ARE THE MESSIAH.
The Roman Catholic church has no lineage before the 7th century AD. The independent Roman church's line of bishops is doubtful prior to 325 AD. Go to Leeds Catholic Cathedral. At least there they are honest. On the wall they have the lineage of bishops and going backwards it stops at 325 AD. They admit that before then nothing is certain.
Even the lineage given by Irenaeus was untrustworthy, as most independent scholars agree. He ASSUMED a sole bishopric when there was none.
The lineage of my church goes back to around 30 AD, that is to the resurrection. Like the early church I am an independent Catholic (UNIVERSAL) Christian belonging to an independent local church
That is why Mark and Luke writing about the same incident omit mention of the words to Peter. If they were as important as you try to claim, why would they do that? They did it because they recognised that the important lesson from the passage was the statement YOU ARE THE MESSIAH.
The Roman Catholic church has no lineage before the 7th century AD. The independent Roman church's line of bishops is doubtful prior to 325 AD. Go to Leeds Catholic Cathedral. At least there they are honest. On the wall they have the lineage of bishops and going backwards it stops at 325 AD. They admit that before then nothing is certain.
Even the lineage given by Irenaeus was untrustworthy, as most independent scholars agree. He ASSUMED a sole bishopric when there was none.
The lineage of my church goes back to around 30 AD, that is to the resurrection. Like the early church I am an independent Catholic (UNIVERSAL) Christian belonging to an independent local church
None of which have any direct bearing on the matter of salvation by grace through faith. One is saved by God exercising His mercy and imputing to us forgiveness of our sins by the atonement supplied through the shed blood of Christ on the cross of Calvary. Received by faith God supplies through the hearing of His word the bible.
I do not care if RCC's all over the globe crawl around on broken glass to demonstrate their sincerity to Mary but if they think or teach that such things bring them closer to God or aid in their salvation then they are sincere but horribly lost and condemned through Gods word.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I do not care if RCC's all over the globe crawl around on broken glass to demonstrate their sincerity to Mary but if they think or teach that such things bring them closer to God or aid in their salvation then they are sincere but horribly lost and condemned through Gods word.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
M
Oh for goodness sake. We have covered this 100 times. That conversation was in ARAMAIC, as proven by "simon Bar Jonah" - as obvious because it was the working language of common people of the holy land. Only translated into greek for convenience, the distinction for effect not meaning.
In aramaic the gender distinction does not exist, Petra and Petros are the same word! So clearly the same person!
And the location of the conversation above a rock platform in caesarea phillipi on which a pagan temple was built is WHY jesus distinguished his rock, Peter from the rock on which the pagan temple was built
Sola scriptura is your problem. History and tradition is needed to understand what it means. Like for example what language was used! Where they were" the history and so on.
You fall for all the anticatholic arguments, you should look at them first, before associate yourself with illogical bunk, which reflects badly on you not RCC!
In aramaic the gender distinction does not exist, Petra and Petros are the same word! So clearly the same person!
And the location of the conversation above a rock platform in caesarea phillipi on which a pagan temple was built is WHY jesus distinguished his rock, Peter from the rock on which the pagan temple was built
Sola scriptura is your problem. History and tradition is needed to understand what it means. Like for example what language was used! Where they were" the history and so on.
You fall for all the anticatholic arguments, you should look at them first, before associate yourself with illogical bunk, which reflects badly on you not RCC!
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yes you shall not bow down to ANY IMAGE because ANY IMAGE is a false god. And that includes Mary and the so-called Saints.
From His Father.
That's strange Jesus said, 'if David calls Him LORD how is He then his son? It is made crystal clear that Jesus is not just another Davidic king.
AS EVERYONE riding into Jerusalem in peace did. It was the natural means of transport. He was following the prophecy of Zechariah 9 not copying Solomon. Besides Jesus DID NOT ride on the king's own mule. You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Incorrect as I have shown you. He followed Zechariah's prophecy. Every child knows that. But it seem that the church of Rome does not. 'out of the mouths of babes and sucklings LOL
Rubbish. In mind were the keys given to Scribes when they qualified enabling them to 'open the Torah to the people'. Peter was to open the Kingly Rule of God to the Jews and the Gentiles, which is what he did. The reference to loosing and binding was a direct reference to the Scribal ceremony..
Old Testament customs which are not directly referred to in Scripture are irrelevant. I challenge you to produce one Scripture which says that the king bowed down to the queen mother (who was not actually the queen), gave her a throne and bowed to her saying he would grant her every request. you are citing Roman Catholic supposed scholars LOL
But not the role you stated. Nothing is said about her role anywhere. Or are you thinking of the murderous Athaliah. Granted that the RC church have followed her murderous ways. Are you suggesting Mary did too? She must have if she approved of the RC church.
Don't be patronising. I have written commentaries on it all
LOL typical RC misuse of Scripture. The writer is talking about the way in which we walk, we are to walk hand in hand with GOD not the church.
your carelessness suits your bad interpretation LOL so that is how your infallible church interprets it? It figures.
Is the original church before the New Testament was completed. And that church was composed of all independent churches who submitted to the Apostles. It no longer applied after they were dead. But that was why by then they had the main corpus of the New Testament already seeing Paul's letters as Scripture.
which church was Paul referring to otherwise? the catholic church at Jerusalem (still not in union with the RC church). The Catholic church in Galilee, the home of Jesus' teaching. The Catholic church in Caesarea? The Catholic church in Antioch? The Catholic church in Alexandria? Certainly not the later upstarts in Rome who murdered and persecuted and burned those opposed to them
how can I cut myself off from a denomination I never belonged to? I am a member of the true church made up of all true believers. And I have not cut myself off from Scripture. THAT is true history, and the only reliable history.
Do you want me to follow Clement of Alexandria's gnostic theories? LOL
the false doctrine observed by the whole early church? I am in good company.
but the early church was composed of more that 10,000 independent churches who all looked to the Scriptures for their truth. So again I am in good company. But like them we are all united around the Scriptures.
but they ARE RC doctrine. you are blind. I ignore the window dressing and look at the reality.
From His Father.
That's strange Jesus said, 'if David calls Him LORD how is He then his son? It is made crystal clear that Jesus is not just another Davidic king.
AS EVERYONE riding into Jerusalem in peace did. It was the natural means of transport. He was following the prophecy of Zechariah 9 not copying Solomon. Besides Jesus DID NOT ride on the king's own mule. You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Incorrect as I have shown you. He followed Zechariah's prophecy. Every child knows that. But it seem that the church of Rome does not. 'out of the mouths of babes and sucklings LOL
Rubbish. In mind were the keys given to Scribes when they qualified enabling them to 'open the Torah to the people'. Peter was to open the Kingly Rule of God to the Jews and the Gentiles, which is what he did. The reference to loosing and binding was a direct reference to the Scribal ceremony..
Old Testament customs which are not directly referred to in Scripture are irrelevant. I challenge you to produce one Scripture which says that the king bowed down to the queen mother (who was not actually the queen), gave her a throne and bowed to her saying he would grant her every request. you are citing Roman Catholic supposed scholars LOL
But not the role you stated. Nothing is said about her role anywhere. Or are you thinking of the murderous Athaliah. Granted that the RC church have followed her murderous ways. Are you suggesting Mary did too? She must have if she approved of the RC church.
Don't be patronising. I have written commentaries on it all
LOL typical RC misuse of Scripture. The writer is talking about the way in which we walk, we are to walk hand in hand with GOD not the church.
your carelessness suits your bad interpretation LOL so that is how your infallible church interprets it? It figures.
Is the original church before the New Testament was completed. And that church was composed of all independent churches who submitted to the Apostles. It no longer applied after they were dead. But that was why by then they had the main corpus of the New Testament already seeing Paul's letters as Scripture.
which church was Paul referring to otherwise? the catholic church at Jerusalem (still not in union with the RC church). The Catholic church in Galilee, the home of Jesus' teaching. The Catholic church in Caesarea? The Catholic church in Antioch? The Catholic church in Alexandria? Certainly not the later upstarts in Rome who murdered and persecuted and burned those opposed to them
how can I cut myself off from a denomination I never belonged to? I am a member of the true church made up of all true believers. And I have not cut myself off from Scripture. THAT is true history, and the only reliable history.
Do you want me to follow Clement of Alexandria's gnostic theories? LOL
the false doctrine observed by the whole early church? I am in good company.
but the early church was composed of more that 10,000 independent churches who all looked to the Scriptures for their truth. So again I am in good company. But like them we are all united around the Scriptures.
but they ARE RC doctrine. you are blind. I ignore the window dressing and look at the reality.
What part of the word of God condemns do you not understand. John 3:15-21
Perhaps you should visit Mexico and watch them crawl around on broken glass in veneration to Mary before you accuse me.
Yet another red herring I never claimed to be master.
Now the church that Christ founded He founded in Jerusalem not Rome. The apostles were Hebrews not Gentiles as Christ was born in the Hebrew linage.
I have yet to see any of you RCC scholars provide any evidence that the ECF's you revere ever gave a testimony of salvation and the reason for their assurance of such.
Show me something from the bible that I can believe. Don't proof text but let's look at it in context and reveal the truth God has for us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Perhaps you should visit Mexico and watch them crawl around on broken glass in veneration to Mary before you accuse me.
Yet another red herring I never claimed to be master.
Now the church that Christ founded He founded in Jerusalem not Rome. The apostles were Hebrews not Gentiles as Christ was born in the Hebrew linage.
I have yet to see any of you RCC scholars provide any evidence that the ECF's you revere ever gave a testimony of salvation and the reason for their assurance of such.
Show me something from the bible that I can believe. Don't proof text but let's look at it in context and reveal the truth God has for us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
M
When you offer condemnation, you make yourself akin to the Master. I don't really care where you think you got your authority.
The poor people in Mexico are afflicted and hoping for a miracle, like at Lourdes or Fatima, and they are hoping Mary's intercessory prayers will be heard. Go ahead and condemn the poor too.
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Not only is your exegesis of the passage biased you present a logical fallacy. Christ did not build His church on a man. What foundation can prevail against the gates of hell? Only Christ.
You reject the light of Gods word for the comfort of you own thoughts. John 3:15-21 & Romans 1
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You reject the light of Gods word for the comfort of you own thoughts. John 3:15-21 & Romans 1
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Wow you are arrogant. I pity the poor people of Mexico enslaved by their RCC masters. The RCC masters are well educated and have a duty to teach the poor people of Mexico the truth not encourage and allow obvious religious atrocities.
The tone of your posts testifies to the lack of merit in your responses.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The tone of your posts testifies to the lack of merit in your responses.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
M
Just repeating scripture , Jesus's words as he said them in Aramaic, rather than your "Logic" emanating more from your dislike of the inevitable conclusion, rather than what was actually said, which is logical and there for all to see..
Even Luther and Calvin thought Peter was special because of scripture, so your view is an outlier ,
The "keys of the kingdom" as referenced back to the old testament make it clear but then...you make up your mind on meaning first, then cherry pick verses to fit it, ignoring those you do not like.
But you can deny it 10000 times and it will not change a jot of the fact that
(a) the conversation took place in aramaic and
(b) there is no such distinction as "petra / petros " in aramaic, So they are one and the same.
(c) So Peter was indeed the rock on which jesus built his church
But then nothing has changed. Abraham and Moses, also were appointed stewards on earth of Gods people, so Peter joined a distinguished line, exalted more than they because Abraham was only called "father" by God (putting paid to other anticatholic nonsense), Peter was officially the rock on which Jesus built his church, a far higher sounding role!.
Even Luther and Calvin thought Peter was special because of scripture, so your view is an outlier ,
The "keys of the kingdom" as referenced back to the old testament make it clear but then...you make up your mind on meaning first, then cherry pick verses to fit it, ignoring those you do not like.
But you can deny it 10000 times and it will not change a jot of the fact that
(a) the conversation took place in aramaic and
(b) there is no such distinction as "petra / petros " in aramaic, So they are one and the same.
(c) So Peter was indeed the rock on which jesus built his church
But then nothing has changed. Abraham and Moses, also were appointed stewards on earth of Gods people, so Peter joined a distinguished line, exalted more than they because Abraham was only called "father" by God (putting paid to other anticatholic nonsense), Peter was officially the rock on which Jesus built his church, a far higher sounding role!.
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