Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues. However, you confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry. Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
This is probably one of the most absurd accusations I've ever heard! The name Christian predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium. Those of you who think that Catholics are not Christian may be surprised to learn you accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up your Bible. The Bible didn't fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV sticker on it. It has a rich Catholic history. If you would spend any time studying the Church Fathers, it would make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs were Catholic. Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example.
Think so huh? The bible says differnt!
"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." Matt 22 :31-32
Those in Heaven, their bodies have departed from us but Christ tells us they are alive and continue to be part of the Body of Christ. (Col 1:18, 24) A prayer to a saint is simply asking another Christian to pray for you to God Almighty. It's that simple. It is not to perform magic, it is not conjure of the dead to foretell the future and it is not a form of worship. It is simply a request that those in the presence of God pray for you to God himself. This is exactly what Protestants do when you ask a family member to "pray" for them. There is no difference. Those Christians on earth as with those glorified Christians in Heaven are all part of the Body of Christ. Jesus Himself tells us that they are alive and St. Paul instructs us in the Holy Bible that "that supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for everyone, for this is good and pleases our Savior." 1 Tim 2: 1; "Pray at all times in the Spirit with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me . . ." (Eph. 6:18). (All the saints, those in Heaven and those on Earth).(All the saints, those in Heaven and those on earth.
If you read any prayer to a saint, it includes or concludes, with a phrase like "pray for us." The "Hail Mary" is a case in point. Read the last stanza:"pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen." As for the rest of the prayer, one can see that it takes its form from the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke and Paul's teachings on the Body of Christ. (Col 1:18-24) Why would anyone object to a pray with Bible verses verbatim out of Christ's 3rd Gospel? One can only guess unless the objection is from the last stanza" "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen." One can only object to this stanza if one believes that those glorified souls in Heaven are 1. not Christians (anymore) and 2. (for some reason) not part of the Body of Christ , and the instructions given by St. Paul in 1 Tim 2:1 (that is pleasing to Our Savior BTW ) "that supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for everyone, for this is good and pleases our Savior." 1 Tim 2:1 does not apply to them! I would ask what Biblical verse objectors are using to declare that those in Heaven are "outside" the Body of Christ or are excluded from the 1 Tim 2:1? The objection is unbiblical, unfounded and based on learned prejudice from years of misinformation about the Holy Bible and the teachings of Christ's Apostles.
On the contrary, what is unbiblical is "praying to Jesus" as one would advocate instead. "Praying to Jesus" is not in the Bible. Jesus himself tells his Apostles to pray to his Father and he tells us how in the "Lord's Prayer." It is a healthy and holy Catholic/Protestant practice to "pray to Jesus," but it is not Biblical in any sense of the word. As the Bible tells us, not everything is in the Bible to include the unbiblical idea that everything IS in the Bible. (John 20:30, John 21:35)
The Holy Bible tells us to invoke those in Heaven to pray WITH us, and it tells us explicitly in many places how they pray FOR us. Protestants object to the practice because they have been indoctrinated over the years that the "Intercession of Saints" or as the Apostles Creed calls it the "Communion of Saints" is somehow Unbiblical.
Hmmmm.... this is where you are confused. For you see, Protestants do the exact same thing when they "pray" (ask/petition) to a spouse, a mother or friend to "pray for them." They "pray/petition" others to pray with them or for them to Almighty God. Again, that is the meaning of the word "pray." "I pray thee." "I ask thee." Look it up. It is not worship, that is reserved for God alone. It is a petition or a request.The Holy Bible tells us there are two kinds of prayer.
1. A prayer can be a prayer of petition OR a prayer of worship. The prayer of petition asks (prays) for something while the other type is one of worship which glorifies God with no petition. The psalms are excellent examples. Some are prayers of petition and some are pure prayers of worship. Most Protestant prayers to God are prayers of petition. The following is an example of a Catholic prayer to God that is not a petition but a prayer of worship.
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen."
2. But ALL prayers to fellow Christians in the Body of Christ are petitions (whether the Christian in the Body of Christ is here or in Heaven). Protestants use prayers of petition in the exact same why when they utilize pray groups or pray chains. They are simply asking fellow Christians to pray/petition God on your behalf.let me ask you a question, are those Holy Christians, the saints in Heaven outside the Body of Christ? Are they outside His Body even tho they are in His presence? Yes or No? I say no. They are not outside the Body of Christ. They are part of The Body of Christ and the saints described in Rev.5:8, offering up their prayers on behalf of those other Christians in the Body of Christ still on earth. To beleive otherwise is to fracture Christ's Body and self declare that the right arm of Christ's Body is separated from His left arm. In other words, i.e. that one part of Christ's Body cannot help or pray for the other part of His Body even while he is the Head of the Body. (Col.1:18)
If this is your contention, what biblical verse are you using to split Christ's Body in two so that those in heaven cannot pray or intercede for those on earth as the Holy Bible tells us they do. Or what verse can you quote that prohibts those Christans in the Body of Christ on earth from asking those in THE SAME BODY to pray with and for them? I don't think you can find such a verse, so this objection is by defination: UNBiblical.
Pax Christi
This is probably one of the most absurd accusations I've ever heard! The name Christian predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium. Those of you who think that Catholics are not Christian may be surprised to learn you accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up your Bible. The Bible didn't fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV sticker on it. It has a rich Catholic history. If you would spend any time studying the Church Fathers, it would make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs were Catholic. Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example.
Think so huh? The bible says differnt!
"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." Matt 22 :31-32
Those in Heaven, their bodies have departed from us but Christ tells us they are alive and continue to be part of the Body of Christ. (Col 1:18, 24) A prayer to a saint is simply asking another Christian to pray for you to God Almighty. It's that simple. It is not to perform magic, it is not conjure of the dead to foretell the future and it is not a form of worship. It is simply a request that those in the presence of God pray for you to God himself. This is exactly what Protestants do when you ask a family member to "pray" for them. There is no difference. Those Christians on earth as with those glorified Christians in Heaven are all part of the Body of Christ. Jesus Himself tells us that they are alive and St. Paul instructs us in the Holy Bible that "that supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for everyone, for this is good and pleases our Savior." 1 Tim 2: 1; "Pray at all times in the Spirit with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me . . ." (Eph. 6:18). (All the saints, those in Heaven and those on Earth).(All the saints, those in Heaven and those on earth.
If you read any prayer to a saint, it includes or concludes, with a phrase like "pray for us." The "Hail Mary" is a case in point. Read the last stanza:"pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen." As for the rest of the prayer, one can see that it takes its form from the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke and Paul's teachings on the Body of Christ. (Col 1:18-24) Why would anyone object to a pray with Bible verses verbatim out of Christ's 3rd Gospel? One can only guess unless the objection is from the last stanza" "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen." One can only object to this stanza if one believes that those glorified souls in Heaven are 1. not Christians (anymore) and 2. (for some reason) not part of the Body of Christ , and the instructions given by St. Paul in 1 Tim 2:1 (that is pleasing to Our Savior BTW ) "that supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for everyone, for this is good and pleases our Savior." 1 Tim 2:1 does not apply to them! I would ask what Biblical verse objectors are using to declare that those in Heaven are "outside" the Body of Christ or are excluded from the 1 Tim 2:1? The objection is unbiblical, unfounded and based on learned prejudice from years of misinformation about the Holy Bible and the teachings of Christ's Apostles.
On the contrary, what is unbiblical is "praying to Jesus" as one would advocate instead. "Praying to Jesus" is not in the Bible. Jesus himself tells his Apostles to pray to his Father and he tells us how in the "Lord's Prayer." It is a healthy and holy Catholic/Protestant practice to "pray to Jesus," but it is not Biblical in any sense of the word. As the Bible tells us, not everything is in the Bible to include the unbiblical idea that everything IS in the Bible. (John 20:30, John 21:35)
The Holy Bible tells us to invoke those in Heaven to pray WITH us, and it tells us explicitly in many places how they pray FOR us. Protestants object to the practice because they have been indoctrinated over the years that the "Intercession of Saints" or as the Apostles Creed calls it the "Communion of Saints" is somehow Unbiblical.
Hmmmm.... this is where you are confused. For you see, Protestants do the exact same thing when they "pray" (ask/petition) to a spouse, a mother or friend to "pray for them." They "pray/petition" others to pray with them or for them to Almighty God. Again, that is the meaning of the word "pray." "I pray thee." "I ask thee." Look it up. It is not worship, that is reserved for God alone. It is a petition or a request.The Holy Bible tells us there are two kinds of prayer.
1. A prayer can be a prayer of petition OR a prayer of worship. The prayer of petition asks (prays) for something while the other type is one of worship which glorifies God with no petition. The psalms are excellent examples. Some are prayers of petition and some are pure prayers of worship. Most Protestant prayers to God are prayers of petition. The following is an example of a Catholic prayer to God that is not a petition but a prayer of worship.
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen."
2. But ALL prayers to fellow Christians in the Body of Christ are petitions (whether the Christian in the Body of Christ is here or in Heaven). Protestants use prayers of petition in the exact same why when they utilize pray groups or pray chains. They are simply asking fellow Christians to pray/petition God on your behalf.let me ask you a question, are those Holy Christians, the saints in Heaven outside the Body of Christ? Are they outside His Body even tho they are in His presence? Yes or No? I say no. They are not outside the Body of Christ. They are part of The Body of Christ and the saints described in Rev.5:8, offering up their prayers on behalf of those other Christians in the Body of Christ still on earth. To beleive otherwise is to fracture Christ's Body and self declare that the right arm of Christ's Body is separated from His left arm. In other words, i.e. that one part of Christ's Body cannot help or pray for the other part of His Body even while he is the Head of the Body. (Col.1:18)
If this is your contention, what biblical verse are you using to split Christ's Body in two so that those in heaven cannot pray or intercede for those on earth as the Holy Bible tells us they do. Or what verse can you quote that prohibts those Christans in the Body of Christ on earth from asking those in THE SAME BODY to pray with and for them? I don't think you can find such a verse, so this objection is by defination: UNBiblical.
Pax Christi
Actually Luther went against the Catholic Teaching that "Works" are needed to receive Salvation. That a person is Justified by their "Works" is what Luther protested against.
The first Catholics did not appear on the scene until 400 years after Jesus arose into Heaven. Look at all the History books we have from that time period and you will see the Catholic Church was not mentioned until 400 years after Jesus died on the cross.
The question is, "Why did the Catholics add books to the Scriptures that were NOT Inspired from God?".
The book of Maccabees was not included in the Old Testament AND Jesus Christ never quoted from the book of Maccabees. So why did you Catholics add a book that was not Inspired by the Holy Spirit?
I believe the Catholics added it because they actually believe there are other sources of Truth outside of God. Which proves that the God they follow is not the God who created everything.
Its a shame the Catholics like dallasb78 do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For if dallasb78 did have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit he would not be teaching the lies of Satan as a source of Truth. How can you know the Truth dallasb78 when you have never received the Holy Spirit? How can you understand what God is saying in the Scriptures when you eyes are blinded by Satan?
All your arguments against the Truth in the Scriptures are what going to hurt you by keeping you from entering into Heaven. I'm not saying Salvation is based on our knowing all the Truths in the Scriptures. But our Salvation is based on receiving Jesus as our Lord and Savior. With Salvation we also receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We then become Righteous, then being Righteous we become Justified. Being Justified we then become Sanctified.
All this is done by Faith! Not by Works! This is what Luther was fighting for.
Do you not see and understand that God is His Love for us did ALL of this for us BEFORE the Foundations of the World were created?
Ephesians 1:3-6
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
God chose me long before He created anything!
It does not matter dallasb78 what you believe in because I have been Chosen by God to enter into Heaven with Him. All you are doing is fighting against God, your not fighting against me.
The first Catholics did not appear on the scene until 400 years after Jesus arose into Heaven. Look at all the History books we have from that time period and you will see the Catholic Church was not mentioned until 400 years after Jesus died on the cross.
The question is, "Why did the Catholics add books to the Scriptures that were NOT Inspired from God?".
The book of Maccabees was not included in the Old Testament AND Jesus Christ never quoted from the book of Maccabees. So why did you Catholics add a book that was not Inspired by the Holy Spirit?
I believe the Catholics added it because they actually believe there are other sources of Truth outside of God. Which proves that the God they follow is not the God who created everything.
Its a shame the Catholics like dallasb78 do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For if dallasb78 did have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit he would not be teaching the lies of Satan as a source of Truth. How can you know the Truth dallasb78 when you have never received the Holy Spirit? How can you understand what God is saying in the Scriptures when you eyes are blinded by Satan?
All your arguments against the Truth in the Scriptures are what going to hurt you by keeping you from entering into Heaven. I'm not saying Salvation is based on our knowing all the Truths in the Scriptures. But our Salvation is based on receiving Jesus as our Lord and Savior. With Salvation we also receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We then become Righteous, then being Righteous we become Justified. Being Justified we then become Sanctified.
All this is done by Faith! Not by Works! This is what Luther was fighting for.
Do you not see and understand that God is His Love for us did ALL of this for us BEFORE the Foundations of the World were created?
Ephesians 1:3-6
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
God chose me long before He created anything!
It does not matter dallasb78 what you believe in because I have been Chosen by God to enter into Heaven with Him. All you are doing is fighting against God, your not fighting against me.
Regardless, bowing down to any statue for any reason, is idolatry, plain and simple. There is no right way or wrong way to do that, for anyway is sin. Remember as the Lord told the Israelites, so he is saying to us, you are to make no graven image to bow down to it. Those who trust in evolution are committing idolatry by worshiping created things over the creator. Idolatry is anything that takes God's place in a persons heart.
LOL!!!!'!! Of course the media lies! What planet are you on? LOL i get where you are coming from now! 
If Obama make a speech about obama care and it is on tv, how they lie?
Tell me how they lie about Pope speech regarding one world government.
Do You believe Pope never make that speech? and all reporter is lie and said pope make that speech?
why don't Vatican sue them for lie about Pope?
Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Bowing down to a statue or picture of Mary is Idolatry and all those Catholics who practice Idolatry will never inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, as long as you Catholics keep bowing down to Mary, God will never allow you to enter into Heaven.
Is this really what you Catholics want? Because if it is God will cast you into the Lake of Fire.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Bowing down to a statue or picture of Mary is Idolatry and all those Catholics who practice Idolatry will never inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, as long as you Catholics keep bowing down to Mary, God will never allow you to enter into Heaven.
Is this really what you Catholics want? Because if it is God will cast you into the Lake of Fire.
I am not fighting against you, please don't think I am. I am certainly not saying you are not going to be in heaven.
I have looked at history before 400 AD and can see evidence of the Catholic Church all over the place, as well as evidence for the veneration of Mary , the real presence in the Eucharist, and other catholic doctrines.
As to the Bible that the jews used. The book of Maccabees and all the books listed in the catholic canon were in the Old Testament. But the jews of the first century removed some. It is this version that protestants use now. The Septuagint which was written before Christ has all of the valid books. This version of the Old testament is what was used by the jews until 70 AD, and is the same version used by the Catholic church.
Again, the church teaches salvation by faith and works as taught James. James by the way was another book Martin Luther wanted to remove until his friends pleaded with him to stop tampering with the Bible.
I have looked at history before 400 AD and can see evidence of the Catholic Church all over the place, as well as evidence for the veneration of Mary , the real presence in the Eucharist, and other catholic doctrines.
As to the Bible that the jews used. The book of Maccabees and all the books listed in the catholic canon were in the Old Testament. But the jews of the first century removed some. It is this version that protestants use now. The Septuagint which was written before Christ has all of the valid books. This version of the Old testament is what was used by the jews until 70 AD, and is the same version used by the Catholic church.
Again, the church teaches salvation by faith and works as taught James. James by the way was another book Martin Luther wanted to remove until his friends pleaded with him to stop tampering with the Bible.
Yes, a whole body can be deceived if they are all adhering to the same false teacher. Example, all who are adhering to the teachings of Mormonism are all deceived, because they are listening to and following those teachings, which are opposed to what God's word says. And the same thing for Roman Catholicism, the Witnesses, Christian science, Scientology, Seventh day Adventists and any other group that claims to be of Christ, but doesn't adhere to the word of God. The word of God is the source of all truth in confirmation with the Holy Spirit and is the way in which to be able discern from what is the truth and what is a lie. Anyone who is trusting solely in the teachings of men and doesn't check those against scripture can be deceived.
It doesn't matter whether you call it veneration or worship. bowing down in front of statue is again the will of God
[h=1]Exodus 20:4-5King James Version (KJV)[/h]4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
[h=1]Exodus 20:4-5King James Version (KJV)[/h]4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Z
I agree. Private interpreting is risky at best. You could have a preacher telling them Jesus drove a Honda!
"Well, sure brothers and sisters Jesus drove a Honda! Don't believe me? You better believe God! His Word says they were all in His Accord!!!! Can I get an amen? This is the word of God brothers and sisters!" LOL
"Well, sure brothers and sisters Jesus drove a Honda! Don't believe me? You better believe God! His Word says they were all in His Accord!!!! Can I get an amen? This is the word of God brothers and sisters!" LOL
What is idolatry? Putting anything in the place of God, and worshiping it. It is obvious to me desperate people reach out to anything outside themselves, a symbol, a statue, a ceremony to find resolution to the pain within.
It would concern me that so few see Jesus as their answer and rather than walking into the Kingdom they are still playing a religious game. I respect the ideas of many people and their conclusions but they can still be wrong.
The answer to any question is answering it, not claiming the answer is here because all these people would have found it. That is the road to insanity and doing things because someone says you should.
It would concern me that so few see Jesus as their answer and rather than walking into the Kingdom they are still playing a religious game. I respect the ideas of many people and their conclusions but they can still be wrong.
The answer to any question is answering it, not claiming the answer is here because all these people would have found it. That is the road to insanity and doing things because someone says you should.