Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[kennethcadwell]

The underlying flaw is that you believe that a Christian can lose their salvation. Therefore all your doctrine on this subject is fatally flawed. You incorrectly interpret the parable of the sower so your understanding of many things is incorrect.

If salvation is of merit then it can be lost. If salvation is by grace and the merit of Christ then it can never be lost for it is secure in the Giver.

One of the great evidences against Roman Catholicism is the doctrine of purgatory where the soul is cleansed of sin by fire in the afterlife. True Christians believe and know that their sins are completely and forever forgiven by grace through faith. It is the blood of Christ that makes complete atonement for sin. All sin past, present and future sin are all under the blood. God has said He has removed it as far as the east is from the west to remember it no more.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Future sins are never forgiven, unless you repent and ask forgiveness of them.
Even the Lord says this in scripture. The false doctrine taught that once you initially repent and start believing Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior then all sins past, present, and future are already forgiven is dangerous.
The bible makes it clear that only past and present sins are forgiven, if you commit a future sin you must ask forgiveness of it and Jesus being just will forgive you.
There would be no need to ask forgiveness if that sin is already forgiven, but scripture says you do.

Then are many scriptures that say you must continue to endure and walk in Christ to be saved. If you do not then you are lost, fallen away, and headed for destruction.

James 1:12


Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.




Matthew 24:10-13


And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22


And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




2 Peter 2:20-22


For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”




Hebrews 12:1-3


Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.




Hebrews 10:36


For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.




Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.




Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.




2 Timothy 4:2-8


Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.




1 Timothy 4:16


Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.




1 Corinthians 9:24-25


Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.




Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.




Mark 13:9-13


“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[notuptome]

Honestly, you sound more and more akin to people like Fred Phelps than Christ. I realize I often get too heated in these conversations, but Roger, you don't stop. You never stop to honestly think that there may be those in Christ who disagree with you.

You continue to endeavor to defame me instead of providing biblical evidence that what I have said is incorrect. You continue to forward ideology that is counter to the bible. Your argument is not with me but with God. I have only told you what God has written in His word. I do not consider the pope to be a reliable source of Spiritual guidance.

Persuade me from the scriptures or reconsider your position.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Future sins are never forgiven, unless you repent and ask forgiveness of them.
Even the Lord says this in scripture. The false doctrine taught that once you initially repent and start believing Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior then all sins past, present, and future are already forgiven is dangerous.
The bible makes it clear that only past and present sins are forgiven, if you commit a future sin you must ask forgiveness of it and Jesus being just will forgive you.
There would be no need to ask forgiveness if that sin is already forgiven, but scripture says you do.

Then are many scriptures that say you must continue to endure and walk in Christ to be saved. If you do not then you are lost, fallen away, and headed for destruction.

James 1:12


Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.




Matthew 24:10-13


And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22


And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




2 Peter 2:20-22


For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”




Hebrews 12:1-3


Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.




Hebrews 10:36


For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.




Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.




Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.




2 Timothy 4:2-8


Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.




1 Timothy 4:16


Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.




1 Corinthians 9:24-25


Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.




Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.




Mark 13:9-13


“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

This has been litigated many times on CC. You remain in error and continue to make God a liar.

God has said that those who are saved are no longer their own but Christ has purchased them with His own blood. Acts 20:28 and 1 Corinthians 6:19

Mans free will must be submitted to Christ to be saved. Once submitted it cannot be reasserted. If you did not submit to Christ when you sought salvation I question how you can say you are saved. I gave it all to Christ and He saved me completely. Not just today and not just yesterday but He saved me forever and forever.

Does God chastise me when I sin? You bet He does but that does not place me at any risk of losing my salvation. Sanctification can be upset but salvation cannot ever be lost. Frankly anything less is to make the blood of Christ imperfect and insufficient to accomplish the will of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Austin348]

Future sins are never forgiven, unless you repent and ask forgiveness of them.

So... If you die committing a sin you won't be forgiven? What if you die having a heart attack cussing someone out, after decades of faithful service to the church? What if you get into a car accident while having an impure thought and die?

 

[kennethcadwell]

This has been litigated many times on CC. You remain in error and continue to make God a liar.

God has said that those who are saved are no longer their own but Christ has purchased them with His own blood. Acts 20:28 and 1 Corinthians 6:19

Mans free will must be submitted to Christ to be saved. Once submitted it cannot be reasserted. If you did not submit to Christ when you sought salvation I question how you can say you are saved. I gave it all to Christ and He saved me completely. Not just today and not just yesterday but He saved me forever and forever.

Does God chastise me when I sin? You bet He does but that does not place me at any risk of losing my salvation. Sanctification can be upset but salvation cannot ever be lost. Frankly anything less is to make the blood of Christ imperfect and insufficient to accomplish the will of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You just contradicted yourself.
You said you must submit your freewill to Christ to be saved. Then you said that when you do sin, God chastises you.
If you have submitted your freewill to Christ, then you can not sin any more because it would be Him that controls your will not you any more.

We still have our freewill in tact even when saved, and can chose to continue in sin or not.
We do still sin and falter at times, but the difference is do you do it ignorantly, or do you live in willful sin.
If you let sin get full grown in your life or where you live in it without repentance or asking forgiveness you serve that sin ( satan ) at not the Lord.

You can not live in willful sin, and you can not turn back to willful sin and still be saved.
I just gave you a list of scriptures that state this fact, and it is talking about believers who turn back away from the Lord to live in sin. It then shows their out come if they continue in willful sin, and it is not eternal life.
One of the most showing of this is Romans 11:19-22 which shows that unless you continue to believe and walk in the ways of the Lord you will be cut off, no salvation.

Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[notuptome]

You just contradicted yourself.
You said you must submit your freewill to Christ to be saved. Then you said that when you do sin, God chastises you.
If you have submitted your freewill to Christ, then you can not sin any more because it would be Him that controls your will not you any more.

Actually there is no contradiction. Repentance is a result of belief. It is what god performs in the heart.

We still have our freewill in tact even when saved, and can chose to continue in sin or not.
We do still sin and falter at times, but the difference is do you do it ignorantly, or do you live in willful sin.
If you let sin get full grown in your life or where you live in it without repentance or asking forgiveness you serve that sin ( satan ) at not the Lord.

We have our sin prone body of flesh that wars against the Spirit. This we have until we are glorified with Christ in heaven.

You can not live in willful sin, and you can not turn back to willful sin and still be saved.
I just gave you a list of scriptures that state this fact, and it is talking about believers who turn back away from the Lord to live in sin. It then shows their out come if they continue in willful sin, and it is not eternal life.
One of the most showing of this is Romans 11:19-22 which shows that unless you continue to believe and walk in the ways of the Lord you will be cut off, no salvation.

You ignore the new nature created by Christ in every believer. We do not sin like we did before we were saved or we did not get saved.

Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Nice verse but you have it completely out of context and without proper exegesis.

Either you have received a different gospel or you have never been properly rooted and grounded in the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kepha]

Christian Chat heresy (for the record)​

We try to welcome everyone to our site including people who grow up with Catholic tradition because of course we want to lead people to the truth.

What you mean is you welcome Catholics to come in here to be bashed, insulted, misrepresented and mocked.

But sometimes it's perceived that we tolerate error and heresy.

Wait a minute. You can invent your own definition of heresy to suit your own ends, but in order to use the term "heresy" it would be profitable for all concerned to have a standard, common definition of what a heresy is. Just so we know we are all speaking the same language.

Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs. (Wikipedia)

Full definitiona : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma (Merriam-Webster)

It has been demonstrated on this thread (repeatedly) that the Protestant reformers accepted Mary's sinlessness.

Please understand first of all that we don't screen every thread and post in this forum. YOU can help with that. If there's something that you really think we should deal with, then use the Report button (there's a Report button on every post). But please understand that there will be some error and we don't remove all error or even all heresy from the site, partly because it's an opportunity for Christians to correct it and respond with the word of God. But if there's too much of it or too much from one person then we do some housecleaning. We certainly don't want our site to be dominated by Catholic heresy or whatever heresy or error, and we don't want people to get the impression that we just tolerate all of that.

I see. You incite a bash-fest, starting with your thread title, tolerate lies and hate speech, tolerate misrepresentations, tolerate psychotic bigotry, but you don't want Catholics to defend themselves too much lest you give the wrong impression.

So for the record, Catholicism is heresy. That's what the admins of this site believe.

If I had your misperceptions and false information and bad experiences, I would hold Catholicism in heresy too.

Mary WAS A SINNER.

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."
(Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.)
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.

According to Martin Luther, you are in heresy.

Ulrich Zwingli : "I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

Ulrich Zwingli "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.

According to Ulrich Zwingli, you are in heresy.

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."
(Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.)
Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.

If you think Mary had other children and/or Mary is not to have the highest honor (among all women), then John Calvin holds you in heresy.

She needed a savior, just like you and me.

Mary needed a savour, but you and me were born with original sin. Just as Eve was created without sin, Mary was conceived without sin. Why is that impossible for God? Who else was given the title/description of Full of Grace??? You have a New Adam but no New Eve. You have a King but no queen. You have to deny that grace saves, and that grace makes us holy and righteousness.

Since you hold the reformers themselves to be in heresy, logically you have to place yourself (or your conflicting private interpretation of scripture)in greater authority than them to declare a heresy.

She is NOT the "mother of God". God has no mother, because God is God. Yes Jesus is God, and Mary was his mother, but we have to understand the dual nature of Jesus. He was 100% God yes, and also 100% man. Mary was his mother as a man, not as God.

The Catholic / patristic tradition regarding Mother of God or Theotokos ("God-Bearer") requires a little bit of thought, but it's not rocket science. Let's run through a quick version of the rationale:

Luke 1:43 (RSV) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kurios) should come to me?

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord (kurios) and my God (theos)!”​

“Lord (kurios) God (theos)”: Lk 1:6, 32, 68; 4:8, 12; 10:27; 20:37.

Therefore, “Lord (kurios) equals God (theos).

Jesus is called both in John 20:28.

Mary is mother of the Lord (Lk 1:43).

Therefore, she is the mother of God, since Lord=God.

Case closed.

Moreover, we don’t say of mothers that they are the mother of their child’s body, but of the child, and the child has a body and a soul. They didn’t create the soul; God did.

Likewise, with Jesus, Mary was the mother of Jesus, Who is God the Son. Thus, she is the Mother of God. It’s wrong and even illogical to say she was the mother of His body. No; she was the mother of the Divine Person, Jesus, Who had a human nature and also a Divine Nature (that she had nothing to do with). But she is still the mother of the Person, regardless of that, as any mother is the mother of a person who has a soul directly created by God.

Most of the early Protestant leaders understood this and retained the terminology, but John Calvin (the one most influential on later Protestantism) did not. He gives his reasoning in a letter of 27 September 1552 to the French Church in London:

. . . to deal with you with brotherly frankness, I cannot conceal that that title being commonly attributed to the Virgin in sermons is disapproved, and, for my own part I cannot think such language either right, or becoming, or suitable. Neither will any sober-minded people do so, for which reason I cannot persuade myself that there is any such usage in your church, for it is just as if you were to speak of the blood, of the head, and of the death of God. You know that the Scriptures accustom us to a different style; but there is something still worse about this particular instance, for to call the Virgin Mary the mother of God, can only serve to confirm the ignorant in their superstitions. And he that would take a pleasure in that, shews clearly that he knows not what it is to edify the Church.​

Just before this, he admitted that some of the objection (among Protestants) wasn't justified, and based in a degree of ignorance:

. . . I doubt not but there may have been somewhat of ignorance in their reproving the way of speaking of the Virgin Mary as the mother of God, and together with ignorance, it is possible that there may have been rashness and too much forwardness, for, as the old proverb says, The most ignorant are ever the boldest.
Ironically, however, it is Calvin himself who shows some degree of ignorance, as to the history of the term (which he knew full well, as a student of the Church fathers and early Church, was used to counter the heresy of Nestorianism). He himself explains it in a way that is perfectly in accord with the Catholic and Orthodox understanding:

She [Elizabeth] calls Mary the mother of her Lord This denotes a unity of person in the two natures of Christ; as if she had said, that he who was begotten a mortal man in the womb of Mary is, at the same time, the eternal God. For we must bear in mind, that she does not speak like an ordinary woman at her own suggestion, but merely utters what was dictated by the Holy Spirit. This name Lord strictly belongs to the Son of God “manifested in the flesh,” (1 Timothy 3:16,) who has received from the Father all power, and has been appointed the highest ruler of heaven and earth, that by his agency God may govern all things. Still, he is in a peculiar manner the Lord of believers, who yield willingly and cheerfully to his authority; for it is only of “his body” that he is “the head,” (Ephesians 1:22, 23.) And so Paul says, “though there be lords many, yet to us,” that is, to the servants of faith, “there is one Lord,” (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.) By mentioning the sudden movement of the babe which she carried in her womb, (ver. 44,) as heightening that divine favor of which she is speaking, she unquestionably intended to affirm that she felt something supernatural and divine.

(Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, comment under Luke 1:43; Calvini Opera, ibid., vol. 45, 35)
Simple deductive reasoning . . . Thus, in my opinion, he really has no excuse for his objection. There are only so many grounds to object to Mother of God:

1) If one believes that Jesus isn't God, Mother of God wouldn't apply to His mother. This is not true of Calvin, because, as we plainly see above and in many other of his statements, he holds to the divinity or deity or Godhood of Jesus Christ: God the Son: the second Person of the Holy Trinity.

2) "God" can only refer to the Father and not to Jesus (a variation of #1, thus not applicable to Calvin, either). Since Scripture shows Jesus being called God in several places, it's a moot point for all who believe that the Bible is inspired revelation.​

3) One can believe that Mary is only the mother of Jesus' human nature, not of a Divine Person with Two Natures (divine and human). This is the heresy of Nestorianism. Calvin would seem to deny it also in the above comment, though some sections of his writings elsewhere strongly smack of it: at least in some respects.

4) Lastly, an objection can be made that derives from the fear or concern of Mother of God being misunderstood. This is Calvin's rationale. I think it fails, though, because Christianity is the sort of thing that has many elements that people can easily misunderstand or not comprehend correctly in the first place. The Holy Trinity is the most obvious example of that. We don't stop using the term "Trinity" because ignorant people will misunderstand it as three gods or a "three-headed god" (as the Jehovah's Witnesses mock it). Calvin certainly doesn't do so. We don't avoid using the term Hypostatic Union (the Two Natures of Christ), because it is a difficult notion and not all that easy to fully grasp.

No where does the scripture refer to Mary as the "mother of God". And in fact, she's not even mentioned in all the epistles. All the New Testament instruction to the church is all about Jesus, not Mary. They never said "hail Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners". They always said JESUS .. JESUS... JESUS.

That's 3 different topics.
No where does the scripture refer to Mary as the "mother of God".
Luke 1:43 (RSV) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kurios) should come to me? (scroll up for details)
And in fact, she's not even mentioned in all the epistles.
She is the only woman mentioned by name in Acts 1: 14 She is foreshadowed in the Old Testament, but I digress.

No where does the scripture refer to Mary as the "mother of God".

<sigh> scroll up.

This is preaching to the choir for most people here. But it regularly happens that we start to accumulate Catholics here who really promote and argue their Catholicism, along with all the heresy.

Anti-Catholics are Mary-obsessed. It's a primary target. Catholics for the most part are constantly on the defensive. That's why their is so much Mary talk. I think you should put a ban on all Mary talks, and to be fair, ban/delete any mention of Mary from everybody else. I would much rather talk about the Bible in general terms.

So for the record, if anyone wants or needs to hear it, we don't agree with Catholic heresy. And yes it is heresy to exalt any other human being as sinless to the same level as Jesus (as the Catholics do with Mary -- they actually teach that Mary was sinless like Jesus!!!), and put equal focus on a person other than Jesus.

(slaps forehead) You don't get it. All true Marian devotion is Christ centered. If not, its a false devotion. That should shock you. All true Marian devotion is Christ centered. We are just never given the opportunity to explain that far. Personally, I don't think it can be done in a forum like this.

​

 

[kepha]

So for the record, if anyone wants or needs to hear it, we don't agree with Catholic heresy. And yes it is heresy to exalt any other human being as sinless to the same level as Jesus (as the Catholics do with Mary -- they actually teach that Mary was sinless like Jesus!!!), and put equal focus on a person other than Jesus.

Another anti-Catholic falsehood, based on prejudice and ignorance.

At the same time, we understand that no one is born a Christian. That's why Jesus said you must be born again.

Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit. Protestants are divided in 5 major camps on baptism. Which 4 do you hold in heresy? Is it a sacrament or an ordinance? Is it necessary? Total immersion or sprinkling? Is it optional? Your buddy John Calvin supported infant baptism, for the record.

Based on the above alone, you hold 75% of all Protestantism to be heretical. If you claim you don't, you have no basis to hold Catholicism in heresy either.

So we welcome all who are seeking -- Catholics, Muslims, homosexuals, and even protestants who are "Christian" only by tradition -- to experience our fellowship here on this site and learn the truth that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life and no one can come to the father except through Him. And there is only one God, and one mediator between God, the man Christ Jesus. Because he was both 100% man and 100% God, that makes him the perfect mediator between man and God. That's why the scripture also tells us to go straight to Jesus -- go to the throne of grace with confidence, knowing that he can understand our weaknesses and everything, since he lived as a man like us (and even experienced all temptation). Hence we don't need Mary to go to or go through -- that defeats the purpose of Jesus.

Yea. How Jesus got here is of no importance...

I saw my mother-in-law die before my eyes putting her faith in Mary. Days before she died I asked her if Mary can save her and she actually said yes. Then in her dying moments, my father-in-law pushed me in front of her to pray for her as she was dying before our eyes. I simply prayed out loud in front of everyone that she would put her faith in Jesus, and ONLY JESUS. There was protesting in the background "wala na Maria? wala na Maria?", which is Filipino language for "No Mary?? No Marry??". You see how deceived they all are. It is sad. You see how the devil uses that poison to add something to Jesus.

So I hope it's clear what we believe and we hope that we can promote the truth here in love.

I am sorry about you losing your mother-in-law. I'm sorry your in-laws weren't apologists and catechetic teachers, and I am really sorry they gave you such a bad impression. Maybe they knew better than to try to explain anything to a rabid anti-Catholic who would never listen.

 

[kepha]

So I hope it's clear what we believe and we hope that we can promote the truth here in love.

Nobody can be clear on what you believe; the forum has no doctrinal statements. It's vary hard to find common ground when no one, except Catholics, reveal their faith tradition/non-tradition. Few will say what church they belong to. An assertion, without documentation or explanation, or biblical support or evidence of any kind with the intent of derision is a flaming zinger. "The Pope is the anti-Christ" is a flaming zinger. "RoboOp is a heretic" < a flaming zinger. There must be some reasonable basis for the zinger; some sort of evidence.

Promote the truth? You don't own the truth. The Catholic Church DOES NOT own the truth. NOBODY owns the truth. I will elaborate on that later.

 

[GaryA]

Promote the truth? You don't own the truth.

"You don't have to own something to promote it..."

 

[kepha]

We try to welcome everyone to our site including people who grow up with Catholic tradition because of course we want to lead people to the truth.

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10) Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin. Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace. A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.​

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

RoBoOp, I'm sure you believe that grace saves and grace is that power which enables us to be sinless and holy.
But I'll bet you still can't make the connection. You have to think it through.

A thread title "Catholic heresies" has no place with a forum title "International Fellowship". It's a contradiction in terms.
You should edit it. Better still, delete the thread. All authority has be given you.

 

[notuptome]

Nobody can be clear on what you believe; the forum has no doctrinal statements. It's vary hard to find common ground when no one, except Catholics, reveal their faith tradition/non-tradition. Few will say what church they belong to. An assertion, without documentation or explanation, or biblical support or evidence of any kind with the intent of derision is a flaming zinger. "The Pope is the anti-Christ" is a flaming zinger. "RoboOp is a heretic" < a flaming zinger. There must be some reasonable basis for the zinger; some sort of evidence.

You are quite right the pope is not the anti-Christ. If the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ then he is simply a blasphemer. The Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit not the pope.

Promote the truth? You don't own the truth. The Catholic Church DOES NOT own the truth. NOBODY owns the truth. I will elaborate on that later.

Christ said that Thy word is truth speaking of the Father in heaven. Catholics like yourself spend a great deal of time promoting figurative explanations for literal truths in God's unchanging word.

Romans chapter 1 does speak of those who did not like God as He is found in the scriptures so they went about to change God into something more acceptable to their image of what God should be like.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kepha]

You are quite right the pope is not the anti-Christ. If the pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ then he is simply a blasphemer. The Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit not the pope. Christ said that Thy word is truth speaking of the Father in heaven. Catholics like yourself spend a great deal of time promoting figurative explanations for literal truths in God's unchanging word.

"Vicar" means "servant", a mere representative, but only under very limited conditions. The Holy Spirit is not the servant of Christ. No Christian of any stripe would agree with you. "figurative explanations for literal truths"??? really? As in John 6??? Still, you have not produced one verse that confines "word of God" to the written word alone.

And Mary is considered a sinner according to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and many other false cults. Mary rejoices in God her savior because of Christ, not because of herself. It's not Catholics that remove Jesus from the picture. Catholics are not in heresy on this point, and neither were the reformers. The thread title needs to be edited to a more civilized tone, or the whole thread deleted. All Mary talk should be banned, including baseless insults about her.

 

[notuptome]

"Vicar" means "servant", a mere representative, but only under very limited conditions. The Holy Spirit is not the servant of Christ. No Christian of any stripe would agree with you. "figurative explanations for literal truths"??? really? As in John 6??? Still, you have not produced one verse that confines "word of God" to the written word alone.

And Mary is considered a sinner according to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and many other false cults. Mary rejoices in God her savior because of Christ, not because of herself. It's not Catholics that remove Jesus from the picture. Catholics are not in heresy on this point, and neither were the reformers. The thread title needs to be edited to a more civilized tone, or the whole thread deleted. All Mary talk should be banned, including baseless insults about her.

Vicar means the one left in place of. Vicarious atonement is not servant atonement.

You are the one bringing Mary into the discussion.

What then of your sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kepha]

Catholics like yourself spend a great deal of time promoting figurative explanations for literal truths in God's unchanging word.

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)

But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)

13. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature." (11) For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.
DEI VERBUM

 

[ThomistColin]

Vicar means the one left in place of. Vicarious atonement is not servant atonement.

You are the one bringing Mary into the discussion.

What then of your sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So if he is a sinner you are right and he is wrong? Listen to what you are implying.

Also, if Vicar is to be taken the way you mean it, then words like Viscomte (Viscount) or Viceroy, which both come from the same latin origin as Vicar, means that the Viscomte replaces his Count or the Viceroy replaces the King.

 

[notuptome]

Those who are born again have the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth of Gods word. No pontification just simple truth. Truth so simple even a tender child can receive it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

So if he is a sinner you are right and he is wrong? Listen to what you are implying.

Also, if Vicar is to be taken the way you mean it, then words like Viscomte (Viscount) or Viceroy, which both come from the same latin origin as Vicar, means that the Viscomte replaces his Count or the Viceroy replaces the King.

The NT was not written in Latin.

King Jesus left His Vicar the Holy Spirit with us until He returns. Not really all that hard to understand.

Now what of your sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kepha]

Those who are born again have the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth of Gods word. No pontification just simple truth. Truth so simple even a tender child can receive it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There is nothing in the Bible about individual believers being guided into the truth of God's word.

The NT was not written in Latin.

You brought up the term, and are too proud to be corrected on it's meaning.

King Jesus left His Vicar the Holy Spirit with us until He returns. Not really all that hard to understand.

That's a new one.

 

[notuptome]

There is nothing in the Bible about individual believers being guided into the truth of God's word.

Your bible have John 14:26 in it?

You brought up the term, and are too proud to be corrected on it's meaning.

Yeah that's it too proud. Perhaps I'm not gullible enough to exchange Latin for the Aramaic.

That's a new one.

It is biblical. John 16:7

For the cause of Christ
Roger