Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Okay. Now I can see your leanings. Bob Jones?! Really? The guy who says that blacks and whites should not comingle? The man who supported, and his family still supports, reconstructive therapy of homosexuals that is at times literal torture? That's a source you would respect?
So you would advise that the sodomite be accommodated and left to an eternity of outer darkness and eternal fire of condemnation? That's kind?

Southerners are less accommodating of ethnic mingling than northerners. Jews were told by God not to marry into the heathen nations around them. In any case you are attempting to distract from the topic of Catholic heresy. Yes all of the Jones have a far better understanding of the scriptures than the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

You may relax for there has been a relaxing of the ethnic issues over the last forty years among the Joneses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nov 30, 2012
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So you would advise that the sodomite be accommodated and left to an eternity of outer darkness and eternal fire of condemnation? That's kind?
Placing homosexuals in rooms with naked women, inciting them to touch each other, after depriving them of sleep, food, and water is acceptable in your eyes? The use of electro-shock therapy by which a homosexual is shown pornography and if he gets aroused is shocked is a right thing to do? There is a reason why this practice is banned in most countries and in many states. It's abhorrent and it is torture.

And no, we are not Jews ordered to marry only among our own. Lest you forget that Jesus is descended of two non-Jews, one of them was a whore.
 

notuptome

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Placing homosexuals in rooms with naked women, inciting them to touch each other, after depriving them of sleep, food, and water is acceptable in your eyes? The use of electro-shock therapy by which a homosexual is shown pornography and if he gets aroused is shocked is a right thing to do? There is a reason why this practice is banned in most countries and in many states. It's abhorrent and it is torture.
I would be shocked if I thought you believed that outrageous fabrication. But you see what you want to see. Sounds homophobic to me.
And no, we are not Jews ordered to marry only among our own. Lest you forget that Jesus is descended of two non-Jews, one of them was a whore.
More shock treatment from you? Awfully nasty for a person who bumps his thumbs together and deems himself wise.

Jesus is described as second Adam. Fully man and fully God yet without sin. Jesus is descended from God born into this world through Mary but conceived of the Father Who is in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nov 30, 2012
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I would be shocked if I thought you believed that outrageous fabrication. But you see what you want to see. Sounds homophobic to me.More shock treatment from you? Awfully nasty for a person who bumps his thumbs together and deems himself wise.

Jesus is described as second Adam. Fully man and fully God yet without sin. Jesus is descended from God born into this world through Mary but conceived of the Father Who is in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Since I've actually lost a friend to suicide due to the treatment I described, I'm absolutely sure such treatment occurs. Since I have many friends who have been through this so called "reconstructive therapy", I'm absolutely sure such treatment occurs.

Btw, Christ was conceived by God in Mary, meaning Jesus has a human lineage, which includes Ruth (a non-Jew) and Rahab the Prostitute, a whore. Both are women honored by God. If you wish to deny Jesus' humanity, go on and be gnostic.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Since I've actually lost a friend to suicide due to the treatment I described, I'm absolutely sure such treatment occurs. Since I have many friends who have been through this so called "reconstructive therapy", I'm absolutely sure such treatment occurs.
That does not mean that the Joneses espouse such treatments. I do not think they would support anything a vile as the treatment you describe. They are of a purer mind than to expose anyone to pornography let alone shock treatments of the nature you described.
Btw, Christ was conceived by God in Mary, meaning Jesus has a human lineage, which includes Ruth (a non-Jew) and Rahab the Prostitute, a whore. Both are women honored by God. If you wish to deny Jesus' humanity, go on and be gnostic.
Jesus was second Adam and was fully human. Jesus was also fully God and without any sin. Ruth and Rahab are in the linage of David as was Mary. This was necessary to fulfill prophecy and to declare the birthright of Christ.

You have my condolences for your friend. No therapy of man can do what only God can do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

swords

Guest
it is not a heresy i am sorry but just explain how you mother ,daughter and sister are worthy of conceiving god . Mary could not be a sinner she is the arc of covenant she had god inside her people died touching the arc yet she was the arc if you do not believe that she is perfect then you are wrong because she would have to be perfect for god to fully live inside of her or she would have died . please sir be careful when you say some thing bad about Jesus mom how would you like if someone called your mom a sinner . so Please be careful what you say about gods mom .May god bless and may you think hard about your faith and love the people you try to teach .
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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it is not a heresy i am sorry but just explain how you mother ,daughter and sister are worthy of conceiving god . Mary could not be a sinner she is the arc of covenant she had god inside her people died touching the arc yet she was the arc if you do not believe that she is perfect then you are wrong because she would have to be perfect for god to fully live inside of her or she would have died . please sir be careful when you say some thing bad about Jesus mom how would you like if someone called your mom a sinner . so Please be careful what you say about gods mom .May god bless and may you think hard about your faith and love the people you try to teach .
Mary found grace in the sight of God. Mary was not sinless but she was blessed and used by God. God gave Mary undeserved favor to birth Jesus Christ.

All men must find grace in Christ or they will perish in their sins. John 3:16

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

swords

Guest
so you telling me that gods mom has sin then wouldn't god give someone who the touched the arc undeserved favor so he/she will live nope they struck down flat dead but Mary god gave her grace so she was sinless she could bear the son of god and if you had the power to save your mom from sin wouldn't you but you may think that impossible anything is possible with god . be careful sir what you say about Jesus s mom . Mary was perfect that' why she is so important today becuase no one would dare make such a claim if she was int sinless maybe it was passed down .
 
Sep 21, 2014
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it is not a heresy i am sorry but just explain how you mother ,daughter and sister are worthy of conceiving god . Mary could not be a sinner she is the arc of covenant she had god inside her people died touching the arc yet she was the arc if you do not believe that she is perfect then you are wrong because she would have to be perfect for god to fully live inside of her or she would have died . please sir be careful when you say some thing bad about Jesus mom how would you like if someone called your mom a sinner . so Please be careful what you say about gods mom .May god bless and may you think hard about your faith and love the people you try to teach .
Well said. It is a heresy to call Mary a sinner, something cults dreamed up not very long ago. I have exposed this heresy in several posts with detailed Protestant understanding of grace. It's poor forum etiquette to open a thread and abandon it. It's not Catholics that are in heresy. Such claims are based on prejudice and ignorance.
First of all, I like to highlight the absolute primacy of grace in the Immaculate Conception. It's not first and foremost about Mary, in the imagined sense that she somehow supposedly generates from herself extraordinary amounts of grace and righteousness; rather, it's about God's grace and the Incarnation and what was appropriate and fitting for Jesus the God-Man to be born of a created, human mother. None of us (including even the Blessed Virgin) can produce our own holiness; that's a heresy called Pelagianism: long since condemned by the Church. It's all ultimately from God.

We can then choose to cooperate with this grace or not. Mary needed a savior as much as any of us (hence, her statement in Luke 1:47: sometimes thrown at Catholics as a "gotcha" tactic). She was saved from ever falling into sin, rather than saved from existing sin. Her case arguably involved more free grace than anyone else's ever did, since extra grace was expressly given to her by God from the very moment of her conception. Obviously, this had nothing to do with her own merit or choice.

Later, she chose to cooperate with God in the Annunciation (Luke 1:38; cf. Phil 2:13) and not ever sin, and this is indeed uniquely glorious among human beings and eminently worthy of a proper veneration (not "worship"!), but the origin of that was, again, pure grace ("alone"). Therefore, no Protestant can claim that the Immaculate Conception violates anything that the Bible says about grace. Quite the contrary . . .

The second thing...is the little-known fact that Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, believed in the Immaculate Conception (almost exactly the Catholic dogma before it was even required of Catholics).

Adam and Eve were sinless before they rebelled and fell, and the (created) unfallen angels are as well, so sinlessness is by no means impossible, biblically speaking.

For much more in-depth reading on various topics in Mariology, see this index.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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so you telling me that gods mom has sin then wouldn't god give someone who the touched the arc undeserved favor so he/she will live nope they struck down flat dead but Mary god gave her grace so she was sinless she could bear the son of god and if you had the power to save your mom from sin wouldn't you but you may think that impossible anything is possible with god . be careful sir what you say about Jesus s mom . Mary was perfect that' why she is so important today becuase no one would dare make such a claim if she was int sinless maybe it was passed down .
The bible never declares Mary sinless. A vessel prepared for Gods use yes but sinless never. Mary died a physical death just like everybody else. Physical death passing upon all men because of the curse of sin.

Be careful you do not elevate Mary above Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
G

GaryA

Guest
"It helps to understand how the thing really works..." ;)


Since Adam, the 'sin nature' has been passed down - in the flesh - through the male.

It does not get passed down from the mother. It gets passed down from the father.

If your father was human -- you have this 'sin nature' in your flesh.

"Period -- it is as simple as that -- NO exceptions."


Mary received the 'sin nature' from her [ human ] father.

Her conception was not any different than anyone else in the human race.

She is just as much a sinner as anyone else in the human race.


Jesus did not receive the 'sin nature' -- because His Father is God and not a human male ( in the lineage of Adam ).

He got His [ human ] body from His mother. All of His other attributes, He got from God - by the Holy Spirit.

He was both God and a man at the same time -- without sin.


Mary's sin had no effect on Jesus. ( Please understand the context. )

The fact that His mother was a sinner did not "taint" Him in any way.


While Jesus was on the earth -- Mary did commit sin -- "just like everyone else"...

Mary needed the same salvation -- "just like everyone else"...

Mary obtained that salvation by faith -- "just like everyone else"... ( who obtains it )

Mary is certainly "blessed" in a special way - as being "favored" by God to be the earthly mother of Jesus; however, in no way does it make her different from or lift her up above anyone else in the human race with regard to sin and salvation.

:)
 
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Mary is certainly "blessed" in a special way - as being "favored" by God to be the earthly mother of Jesus; however, in no way does it make her different from or lift her up above anyone else in the human race with regard to sin and salvation.

:)
But it does. You are denying scripture. Sorry you can't read the plain meaning of Luke 1:42. And you contradict yourself.
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women."
You have to reject your own doctrine of grace in order to maintain your heresy about Mary's sinlessness, and I have exposed your heresy several times with details on how you reject your own doctrine of grace but you keep repeating yourself. There is "grace" and there is "Full of Grace". Blindness prevents you from seeing the difference. Here is my source, it quotes Protestant scholars view on scriptures. But you can't read anything with your eyes shut.

Close your eyes; don't read this one either.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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But it does. You are denying scripture. Sorry you can't read the plain meaning of Luke 1:42. And you contradict yourself.
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women."
You have to reject your own doctrine of grace in order to maintain your heresy about Mary's sinlessness, and I have exposed your heresy several times with details on how you reject your own doctrine of grace but you keep repeating yourself. There is "grace" and there is "Full of Grace". Blindness prevents you from seeing the difference. Here is my source, it quotes Protestant scholars view on scriptures. But you can't read anything with your eyes shut.

Close your eyes; don't read this one either.
Where does the bible describe Mary as "full of grace"? It describes Jesus as full of grace but I can't find it applied to Mary. Am I just a blind man seeking light?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Sep 21, 2014
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Where does the bible describe Mary as "full of grace"? It describes Jesus as full of grace but I can't find it applied to Mary. Am I just a blind man seeking light?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You are correct. Jesus is described as "Full of Grace" in John 1:14. But the same word is used to describe Mary in Luke 1:28. Adam and Eve were once Full of Grace before the Fall. And the fallen angels too. Sinless-ness is not foreign to the Bible.

We can exchange 5 miles of posts arguing about "highly favored", but I will just appeal the original Greek and Protestant scholars that I've quoted 5 times.

Mary is not an obstacle to Jesus, just the opposite. Mary is not competing with Jesus in Catholic devotion, that's ridiculous. Even converts to Catholicism have trouble wrapping their head around these concepts. It takes prayer.

Luke 1 ESV
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

”Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Notice the angel did not say, "POOF! You are now full of grace!" Scripture does not say she received grace at that point in time. Mary was saved by the merits of the cross retrospectively, at her conception. It's not impossible for God, remember He is outside of time.

Jesus didn't need to be perfected by God, He is God. So "full of grace" is a fitting title/description for Jesus. It's also fitting for Mary because she is the New Eve and Ark of the New Covenant. Having a New Adam without a New Eve doesn't make any sense. I know of no one else in scripture where being full of grace was announced to them by a holy angel. A goddess doesn't declare herself to be a humble handmaiden, Mary is human and ordinary with an extraordinary Motherhood.

This question is not a trap, it's very important: Was the Ark of the Old Covenant holy or was it just a storage box?
Clues: 1 Chronicles
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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You will never understand as long as you remain apart from Christ.

It was just a storage box. God is Holy.

Saved individuals are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Are saved people holy? Inwardly as deemed by God yes. Outwardly in the body of flesh no.

Focus on the right object. God not Mary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
D

didymos

Guest
Placing homosexuals in rooms with naked women, inciting them to touch each other, after depriving them of sleep, food, and water is acceptable in your eyes?...

Only if they get married first... :rolleyes:
 
Sep 21, 2014
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It was just a storage box. God is Holy.
Roger
So you didn't check 1 Chronicles? It seems God went to a lot of trouble to make a storage box. Are you sure it wasn't holy? What happened when Uzzah touched it? 2 Sam. 6:7
 
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"the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed"
You would have to be quite biblically iliterate to reject this general principle.

Let's take a look at what the "storage box" contained, then we can look at what was so special about the Ark of the Covenant (just a storage box to you).

Luke wove some marvelous things into his Gospel that only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood—a Jew who knew Jewish Scripture and had eyes to see and ears to hear. One of the things he would have understood is typology.We all know that the Old Testament is full of stories, people, and historical events. A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something in the New Testament. It is like a taste or a hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ’s revelation.

The idea of typology is not new. Paul says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come—Christ (Rom 5:14). Early Christians understood that the Old Testament was full of types or pictures that were fulfilled or realized in the New Testament.
Here are a few more examples of biblical typology:

  • Peter uses Noah’s ark as a type of Christian baptism (1 Pt 3:18-22).
  • Paul explains that circumcision foreshadowed Christian baptism (Col 2:11-12).
  • Jesus uses the bronze serpent as a type of his Crucifixion (Jn 3:14; cf. Nm 21:8-9).
  • The Passover lamb prefigures the sacrifice of Christ (1 Cor 5:7).
  • Paul says that Abraham "considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back" (Heb 11:19).

God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets". God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (Ex 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed
1) a golden jar holding the manna,
2) Aaron’s rod that budded,
3) and the stone tablets of the covenant (Heb 9:4).

Were these "types" of Something to come?

I would like to elaborate a bit on this "overshadowing" business.

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex 40:34-35; Nm 9:18, 22). The verb for "to cover" or "to overshadow" and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God.

In the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and "overshadows" her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’" Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of Man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord "overshadowed" the ark and filled the tabernacle.

What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.
God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex 25:8). It's not "just a storage box". God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?

The Word in stone in the ark is a type of the Word made Flesh, Jesus
The Rod of Aaron in the ark is a type of Jesus the High Priest.
The manna in a gold bowl in the ark is a type of Jesus, the Bread of Life that came down from heaven.

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the Annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (Nm 10:34; Dt 33:12; Ps 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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So you didn't check 1 Chronicles? It seems God went to a lot of trouble to make a storage box. Are you sure it wasn't holy? What happened when Uzzah touched it? 2 Sam. 6:7
I know that Roman Catholics do not understand holiness. Objects are not holy. Bones of long dead saints are not holy. You see things of the earth as holy because you are earthly in your vision. To glimpse that which is truly holy you must look to things above the earth.

We are told to be holy as the Lord is holy. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the power may be of God and not of us.

When you cease to look for your own holiness and seek the holiness that is of God you will gain understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger