Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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You are welcome, Dan 
Would you agree, then, that @Bede was wrong to claim "Do you realise that that calling the Catholic Church (CC) the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was a pejorative term invented by Protestants at the Reformation and therefore not only incorrect but insulting" ? Since a pope used the phrase hundreds of years prior to that, calling it a pejorative intended to insult also seems like overkill, and a playing of the victim card.
Would you agree, then, that @Bede was wrong to claim "Do you realise that that calling the Catholic Church (CC) the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was a pejorative term invented by Protestants at the Reformation and therefore not only incorrect but insulting" ? Since a pope used the phrase hundreds of years prior to that, calling it a pejorative intended to insult also seems like overkill, and a playing of the victim card.
if the original document was in Latin, were the commas there? I don't even know if Latin uses commas!
if someone finds a term insulting, I'm happy to use a different term.
at the same time, on a public forum like this with lots of people from different backgrounds contributing, whatever term is used has to be something that isn't confusing.
some Protestants like to call themselves "catholic" in the sense of "universal", so that can be a related issue.
my son converted to Catholicism a couple years ago.
he's taken the "embrace the pejorative and make it your own" approach.
like, he calls the Apocrypha the "papist expansion pack".
myself, I never had that impression.
I think the Bible says there is just one Church, one body.
saying that part of the Nicene Creed is just saying that you believe that there is only one Church.
it may have meant something different originally.
but I think that's the understanding that a lot of Protestants attach to it.
I think the Bible says there is just one Church, one body.
saying that part of the Nicene Creed is just saying that you believe that there is only one Church.
it may have meant something different originally.
but I think that's the understanding that a lot of Protestants attach to it.
well, then to be fair, imo, a person would have to use the same approach with this paragraph
Matthew 15:7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 'These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.'"
Matthew 15:7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 8 'These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.'"
none of these churches have ever fully broken with the roman catholic church RCC. all of them have come back or are mving back to the roman catholic church RCC. the orthodox and anglican churches both have an imperfect communion with the RCC. the others are moving back toward dialogue and toward ecumenical unity with RCC.
they all follow the man of lawlessness, which is the roman pontiff.
The mass of the RCC is the re-sacrificing of Jesus which is performed on an altar. ALL the churches of the RCC are really temples with increasing areas of holiness.
Jesus was only sacrificed once which tore the temple veil from top to bottom removing the separation of man from god.
the RCC keeps re-sacrifing Jesus and keeps the veil raised to maintain separation between man and God. RCC is a strong delusion of the truth.
they all follow the man of lawlessness, which is the roman pontiff.
The mass of the RCC is the re-sacrificing of Jesus which is performed on an altar. ALL the churches of the RCC are really temples with increasing areas of holiness.
Jesus was only sacrificed once which tore the temple veil from top to bottom removing the separation of man from god.
the RCC keeps re-sacrifing Jesus and keeps the veil raised to maintain separation between man and God. RCC is a strong delusion of the truth.
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But....They believe God is the creator, that God is all powerful mercifull, He chose Abraham to be father of a nation of His people. In As much as that, the same God is believed.
Muslims put Ishmael in place of Isaac but that doesn't change who God is but what He did. They say they worship the God of Abraham. God of this man or that man is a reference to the acts of God. So we disagree. They change what God did to make themselves the Chosen people.
If you have convinced an atheist that God exists and created all that is then that atheist sees the same God as you.
They know less is all.
Muslims put Ishmael in place of Isaac but that doesn't change who God is but what He did. They say they worship the God of Abraham. God of this man or that man is a reference to the acts of God. So we disagree. They change what God did to make themselves the Chosen people.
If you have convinced an atheist that God exists and created all that is then that atheist sees the same God as you.
They know less is all.
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Do you understand all what is declared from the Holy Sees? No you do not!
if you do not then don't cite the Nicene Creed. Because you are pledging allegience to the hierarchy of the Holy Sees .
Nicene Creed is man written. It does not say "one church", it says "one, holy catholic and apostolic church." The word apostolic refers to apostolic succession. It is a confession that the one true church is the church with apostolic succession.
Roman Pontiff is the succession from Apostle Peter.
The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the succession from Apostle Andrew.
The Pentarchy established by the Roman Emperors are the five heads of the church. Each I believe claiming their origin from one of the 12 apostles.
Here is the Pentarchy (the five sees):
1) Rome
2) Constantinople (orthodox)
3) Alexandria (orthodox)
4) Antioch (orthodox)
5) Jerusalem (orthodox)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarchate_of_Constantinople
The 2) Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the "first among equals" among the world's Eastern Orthodox prelates and is regarded as the representative and spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians.
So 2) is the spiritual leader of 2), 3), 4), and 5)
However, 1) is spiritual leader over 1), 2), 3), 4) and 5)
Therefore, Rome is first among equals of all the Pentarchy
Today, only the sees of Rome 1) and of Constantinople 2) still hold authority over an entire major Christian church, the first being the head of the Roman Catholic Church and the second having symbolic hegemony over the Orthodox Church.
Infighting among the sees, and particularly the rivalry between Rome (which considered itself preeminent over all the church) and Constantinople (which came to hold sway over the other Eastern sees and which saw itself as equal to Rome, with Rome "first among equals"),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy
if you do not then don't cite the Nicene Creed. Because you are pledging allegience to the hierarchy of the Holy Sees .
Nicene Creed is man written. It does not say "one church", it says "one, holy catholic and apostolic church." The word apostolic refers to apostolic succession. It is a confession that the one true church is the church with apostolic succession.
Roman Pontiff is the succession from Apostle Peter.
The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the succession from Apostle Andrew.
The Pentarchy established by the Roman Emperors are the five heads of the church. Each I believe claiming their origin from one of the 12 apostles.
Here is the Pentarchy (the five sees):
1) Rome
2) Constantinople (orthodox)
3) Alexandria (orthodox)
4) Antioch (orthodox)
5) Jerusalem (orthodox)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarchate_of_Constantinople
The 2) Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the "first among equals" among the world's Eastern Orthodox prelates and is regarded as the representative and spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians.
So 2) is the spiritual leader of 2), 3), 4), and 5)
However, 1) is spiritual leader over 1), 2), 3), 4) and 5)
Therefore, Rome is first among equals of all the Pentarchy
Today, only the sees of Rome 1) and of Constantinople 2) still hold authority over an entire major Christian church, the first being the head of the Roman Catholic Church and the second having symbolic hegemony over the Orthodox Church.
Infighting among the sees, and particularly the rivalry between Rome (which considered itself preeminent over all the church) and Constantinople (which came to hold sway over the other Eastern sees and which saw itself as equal to Rome, with Rome "first among equals"),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy
B
The Link you gave was to a book by Francis A Sullivan. He was never a Pope.
"expecting you to admit when you are wrong is expecting too much" .
I'm not wasting any more time of this. As i pointed out in post #2008
The Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I've looked through four documents from the Second Vatican Council where I would expect the name of the Church to appear:
Nostra Aetate (The Relation Of The Church To Non-Christian Religions
Gaudium Et Spes (The Church In The Modern World
Lumen Gentium Several (Dogmatic Constitution On The Church)
Orientalium Ecclesiarum (The Catholic Churches Of The Eastern Rite)
All use only the term Catholic Church (several times in two documents), except once the term Holy Catholic Church is used.
Catholic Church is the name of the Church not Roman Catholic Church.
A Church decided what it's name is not you.
If you want to call the Catholic Church something else then so be it. I can't stop you.
"expecting you to admit when you are wrong is expecting too much" .
I'm not wasting any more time of this. As i pointed out in post #2008
The Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I've looked through four documents from the Second Vatican Council where I would expect the name of the Church to appear:
Nostra Aetate (The Relation Of The Church To Non-Christian Religions
Gaudium Et Spes (The Church In The Modern World
Lumen Gentium Several (Dogmatic Constitution On The Church)
Orientalium Ecclesiarum (The Catholic Churches Of The Eastern Rite)
All use only the term Catholic Church (several times in two documents), except once the term Holy Catholic Church is used.
Catholic Church is the name of the Church not Roman Catholic Church.
A Church decided what it's name is not you.
If you want to call the Catholic Church something else then so be it. I can't stop you.
Since the bishop of Rome is the head of this church, and his seat of authority is within Rome, it is indeed the Roman Catholic Church, which is a breakaway from the Orthodox Church. According to Britannica:
"Alternative Title: Roman Catholic Church
Roman Catholicism, Christian church that has been the decisive spiritual force in the history of Western civilization. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Over the course of centuries it developed a highly sophisticated theology and an elaborate organizational structure headed by the papacy, the oldest continuing absolute monarchy in the world..."
Christians should go on calling it the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). As to its "sophisticated theology" it is basically false doctrine.
"Alternative Title: Roman Catholic Church
Roman Catholicism, Christian church that has been the decisive spiritual force in the history of Western civilization. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Over the course of centuries it developed a highly sophisticated theology and an elaborate organizational structure headed by the papacy, the oldest continuing absolute monarchy in the world..."
Christians should go on calling it the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). As to its "sophisticated theology" it is basically false doctrine.
sounds similar to the way the ancient Greek manuscripts are written,
all caps, no spaces between words, no punctuation.
so it sounds like punctuation would be translator's choice in this case.
they may have felt that a comma was required by context or something.
I came across something irenaeus said on another thread
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4274060
he talks about the church being "founded and organized at Rome."
if an organization is headquartered in Britain, we might say it is British... in Canada, Canadian.
I don't really follow why saying the Catholic church is Roman Catholic would be an insult, even if it was intended as an insult.
I grew up Pentecostal,
sometimes people called us "holy rollers".
sometimes we called ourselves that.
it may have been intended as an insult, but we pursued holiness, and sometimes people rolled on the floor.
all caps, no spaces between words, no punctuation.
so it sounds like punctuation would be translator's choice in this case.
they may have felt that a comma was required by context or something.
I came across something irenaeus said on another thread
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-absurdity-and-heresy-of-preterism.192468/post-4274060
he talks about the church being "founded and organized at Rome."
if an organization is headquartered in Britain, we might say it is British... in Canada, Canadian.
I don't really follow why saying the Catholic church is Roman Catholic would be an insult, even if it was intended as an insult.
I grew up Pentecostal,
sometimes people called us "holy rollers".
sometimes we called ourselves that.
it may have been intended as an insult, but we pursued holiness, and sometimes people rolled on the floor.