Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Wansvic

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I certainly wouldn't dispute that, especially since the Bible contains verses like this one

Seek his will in all you do, and he will show you which path to take.
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-6.htm

but I think it's interesting that Bible passages on subjects like slavery, which the Bible supports (slaves obey your masters) are not seen as part of God's truth by Christians today,
both Catholic and Protestant.
That comment would seem to convey that mankind is to obey those who have authority over them. Not approval of one having slaves. For as Paul said, all are to place their hope and trust in Jesus not matter what situation one finds themselves in.
 

Dan_473

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I do, as long as the oral traditions do not make the grace of Christ without effect.
if a person uses both scripture and tradition,
then it looks to me like it's not "scripture only".
 

Wansvic

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None of the first four describe the actual baptism. They all refer to the name of the baptism not the words of the ceremony.
The last one is not even in the same ball park. Calling on Jesus' name is something the one being baptised does, not the words spoken by the baptiser.
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:13)
Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2;21)

Note also Acts 2:38, 10:44 says " in the name of Jesus Christ", whilst Acts 8:16, 19:5 "says in the name of the Lord Jesus". If it was a baptismal formula you would expect consistency.
Also note the contrast in Acts 19 between "John’s baptism" and baptism"in the name of the Lord Jesus "
Each references Jesus' name. Not one biblical record uses the phrase instituted in 325 A.D. by the forerunners of the roman catholic church.
 

Wansvic

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Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:13)
Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2;21)
Provide scripture where someone calls on the name of the Lord (Jesus) outside of water baptism.
 

Dan_473

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The comment was in reference to using the phrase, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost while administering water baptism. Or, does scripture use the name of the Lord Jesus consistently?
I understand what you're saying.
at the same time, why not do both?
then all the bases are covered.

what I was getting at was that if a person is going to follow the Bible pattern as carefully as possible, then I think they would want to baptize in a river or stream.
 
B

Bede

Guest
Each references Jesus' name. Not one biblical record uses the phrase instituted in 325 A.D. by the forerunners of the roman catholic church.
The phrase in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit was instituted by Jesus.
It was used before 325AD as I have already shown, first in a quote from a 1st century document, then in a 2nd century document.
Do you want more?
 

Wansvic

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The will of the Father is found in ALL that Jesus and the apostles passed on - Scripture and Tradition (see post 2508)
This is what the bible actually says about itself:

All Scripture is inspired by God.
It is to be used for doctrine; knowing what to believe.
Reproof; to express blame or disapproval against something that is in opposition to God's truth.
Correction; the action or process of correcting something in opposition to God's truth.
Instruction in righteousness; a direction or order that requires obedience in order to be in right standing with God.
That the man of God may be perfect; throughly furnished unto all good works.


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. " 2 Tim 3:16-17
 

Dan_473

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That comment would seem to convey that mankind is to obey those who have authority over them. Not approval of one having slaves. For as Paul said, all are to place their hope and trust in Jesus not matter what situation one finds themselves in.
yes, I think that's a good way to interpret those passages,
looking at the general ideas being presented.

probably then a good idea to use that same approach to the entire Bible.

Differing weights and differing measures-- the LORD detests them both.
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/20-10.htm

2 Corinthians 3 "Such confidence we have through Christ toward God; 5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; 6 who also made us sufficient as servants of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit.

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
 

Wansvic

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lot of time is spent talking about water baptism.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water for repentance, but he who comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
You mentioned the fact that the catholic church distorted Godly concepts that were reversed by the protestant reformation. Many fail to realize the catholic "church's" corruption concerning baptism. We are buried with Jesus, into His death, via water baptism. Man did not come up with that idea. God created it as seen in the word.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost did not replace water baptism. Both became necessary as witnessed in the word. Man obeys the command and submits to water baptism while God fills individuals with His Spirit.
 

Jackson123

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Then according to you until the Jews rejected Jesus they were worshipping the one true God. But once they rejected Jesus God changed into a false God.
What a weird idea.
Are you saying Jesus idea is weird?

John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

Jackson123

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have you read the early church fathers?
that would be an example of early Christian tradition.

I haven't researched it myself, but I've heard that the idea of baptizing babies is found in the early church fathers.

is that a tradition that you or the people you worship with on Sunday morning follow?
The document of Christian tradition is in the Bible, there isn't pray to Mary there
 

Dan_473

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You mentioned the fact that the catholic church distorted Godly concepts that were reversed by the protestant reformation.
well, that's one way to interpret what I wrote.

I think I said something like, let the reader decide...
 

Jackson123

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There can be confusion between Sacred Tradition (or just Tradition) written with a capital 'T' and tradition written with a small 't'. The latter is those customs and practices that grow up over time.

Sacred Tradition (capital 'T') are those revelations of God that were passed on orally and not written down and canonised as scripture. It is equal with Sacred Scripture as part of what Jesus and the apostles passed on to the Church.

Paul put Tradition and Scripture on an equal basis:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions [teaching NIV] which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth [Tradition] or by letter [Scripture]. (2Thess 2:15)
How about pray to queen of heaven?
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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I understand what you're saying.
at the same time, why not do both?
then all the bases are covered.

what I was getting at was that if a person is going to follow the Bible pattern as carefully as possible, then I think they would want to baptize in a river or stream.
The bible records nothing other than the use of the singular name of Jesus. Significant? Yes. God is specific concerning His instructions throughout the word. It is troubling that a tradition began and others are following the tradition instead of what is clearly conveyed in the word. It makes me think of the scripture that states broad is the way that leads unto destruction. There is a narrow way that few find. Why? Because people are following traditions instead of being obedient to God's word.

It upsets me to think that the flow of sheep (society) is complying with a deadly tradition instituted by the forerunners of the catholic church.
 
B

Bede

Guest
This is what the bible actually says about itself:

All Scripture is inspired by God.
It is to be used for doctrine; knowing what to believe.
Reproof; to express blame or disapproval against something that is in opposition to God's truth.
Correction; the action or process of correcting something in opposition to God's truth.
Instruction in righteousness; a direction or order that requires obedience in order to be in right standing with God.
That the man of God may be perfect; throughly furnished unto all good works.


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. " 2 Tim 3:16-17
We've been through all this before.
1. That says scripture is useful. It doesn't say that ONLY scripture is useful.

2. It says that with scripture a man is thoroughly furnished. It doesn't say that ONLY scripture is required to be thoroughly furnished.
 
B

Bede

Guest
Are you saying Jesus idea is weird?

John 5

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
No, I'm saying your idea is weird.