Catholics and Confessions

[Scotth1960]

Pope Boniface VIII. "It is altogether necessary for salvation for every soul to be subject unto the Roman Pontiff (Pope)" Bull Unam Sanctam.
"... whether Boniface was a direct or indirect cause of the tumult that retarded the birth of democracy in Florence [Italy], he earned Dante's undying hatred. Later, Dante rationalized that hatred when he developed his theme that mankind could only know happiness under an emperor appointed by God, that the temporal power of the popes was an offense to heaven which condemned all mankind to chaos. In the Divine Comedy he drags Boniface through hell, through purgatory, through paradise itself, there to be arraigned before St. Petr, condemned by the apostle himself in an appalling indictment:
He who usurps my place upon the Earth,
My place, my place, my place,
Has made of my cemetery a sewer
Of blood and stench whereby the Evil One
Who fell from here, below there is appeased. (1)".
[page 110: Chamberlin, E.R. (1969). The Bad Popes. New York: Barnes & Noble Books.].

Notes.
1. Dante, Paradiso, XXVII, 22.

 

[SantoSubito]

By the way, I don't dislike Catholics, I dislike Catholicism.

To dislike Catholicism is to dislike Catholics. Catholicism is an integral part of us it shapes our minds and colors every thought we have and because of that we even have our own distinct culture.

You will never see a born gain Christian converting to Catholicism.

Would you care to meet a few of my friends? Of course you must think they were never born again to begin with if they converted to Catholicism.

 

[Grandpa]

I do not agree that he is twisting Scripture to mean what he wants it to mean.



Priests also confess to bishops, and a priest should confess to and ask forgiveness from anyone against whom he has sinned.

Ha! That's because you do the same twisting...

 

[Grandpa]

In my experience, Catholics read the Bible more than Evangelicals. They read the WHOLE Bible, not just a few chapters and verses that they like.

How much Scripture is read in your average weekly service?

Not very much, maybe 6-8 verses. And yet I know precisely who forgives me of my sin and I know who cannot.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I am a church leader. and it is hard for me to get to know everyone in my congregation. I only know about 10 people on a personal level.

You are a church leader, and you have only bothered to get to know 10 people of your large congregation on a personal level?

SHAME ON YOU! You should be fired.

You don't get to know someone in church, you get to know them by hanging out with them. We get together at least 3 times a week.

Agreed. What a pathetic church you must "lead" if you don't encourage more people to get more involved. You, my friend, have NO business judging any Catholic church, when there is so much wrong with your own.

I am sorry. But no priest can get that close and personal with his congregation. I have seen catholic congregations. they are quite large.

SOME Catholic congregations are large, some are small. Same as any other denomination. The ones that are larger have multiple priests, so that each one could get to know a percentage of the congregation. Yes, I'm sure there are Catholic churches where the priest(s) don't take the time to get to know the sheep in their flock. In my experience, this is the exception, not the norm.

On the other hand, most evangelical churches I've experienced, with their "rock band" music and their power-point sermons, are quintessentially NON-personal.

This does not say I can forgive someone there sin so they can be washed and not judged eternally for that sin. It speaks of me forgiving my brother for sinning against me. Only God can forgive my sin eternally and only through Christ's mediation. He paid for my sin, so only he has the right to mediate. A priest needs his own sin forgiven, so like a jewish priest, he has not mediatory privileges or rights.

1. Catholics believe that only God can judge souls. No priest can decide whether a person is heaven-bound or not, that is God's job alone.
2. It speaks volumes about your faith that you would worship and praise a God who would be so petty and pathetic as your god seems to be.

I am glad that I worship a God who is worthy of praise.

 

[Grandpa]

To dislike Catholicism is to dislike Catholics. Catholicism is an integral part of us it shapes our minds and colors every thought we have and because of that we even have our own distinct culture.

I know there are precious saints in the Catholic church. I know that God can save people and give them fellowship with other believers irregardless of what church they go to.

It is only when one says that their church is the one "true" church and all others are in error that I start to have a problem. It seems to me that when someone makes this claim they are immediately following after the flesh and not the spirit. Does anyone who knows the Lord think that He can't save someone because he goes to the wrong church? How absurd.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Pretty much all of the Catholic traditions that you take part in started in Pagan Babylon.

And all of the protestant traditions you take part in, as well.

However, confessing sins to a priest is a serious thing and one of many traditions that goes against the bible.

We have shown you where the Bible not only allows this process, but commands it. Does deciding which parts of the Bible to pick and choose constitute "going against the Bible"?

All you have to do is compare what your church does with the bible and you will find the answers for yourself.

First of all, you know NOTHING about my church. How dare you judge it without even knowing what church I attend. Bet you couldn't even name what denomination I am.

Secondly, I have seen NOTHING in my church, nor in any Catholic church, that contradicts the Bible.

I have, however, seen a few practices in more evangelical churches that don't seem to mesh, to me.

By the way, I don't dislike Catholics, I dislike Catholicism.

Right. And I bet some of your best friends are Catholic.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Confession goes against God and did start in Pagan Babylon. That's where the act of confession came from.

If you worship a god who would DENY the act of private confession, I pity you.

My God provides people in my life who help me with my walk in Christ. So sorry that yours doesn't.

I've known of Catholics who became born again Christians and immediately left the Catholic Church.

And I've known plenty of evangelicals who left their denominations to become Catholic. What does that prove?

You will never see a born gain Christian converting to Catholicism. But you will always find Catholics converting to "born again" Christianity.

FALSE! I could introduce you to hundreds of born-again Christians who converted to Catholicism.

 

[SantoSubito]

To dislike Catholicism is to dislike Catholics. Catholicism is an integral part of us it shapes our minds and colors every thought we have and because of that we even have our own distinct culture.

I know there are precious saints in the Catholic church. I know that God can save people and give them fellowship with other believers irregardless of what church they go to.

It is only when one says that their church is the one "true" church and all others are in error that I start to have a problem. It seems to me that when someone makes this claim they are immediately following after the flesh and not the spirit. Does anyone who knows the Lord think that He can't save someone because he goes to the wrong church? How absurd.

I will boldly declare before anyone that the Catholic Church is the one true Church which Christ founded, but i don't deny that people in Protestant communities can attain salvation, it's just a fair bit harder.

 

[Grandpa]

To dislike Catholicism is to dislike Catholics. Catholicism is an integral part of us it shapes our minds and colors every thought we have and because of that we even have our own distinct culture.


I will boldly declare before anyone that the Catholic Church is the one true Church which Christ founded, but i don't deny that people in Protestant communities can attain salvation, it's just a fair bit harder.

Really? What about the selling of indulgences and the inquisition and the crusades? The Catholic church makes me nervous just by how much power it has. Imagine the magnitude of power it had 500-1000 yrs ago. But that's just me...

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Not very much, maybe 6-8 verses. And yet I know precisely who forgives me of my sin and I know who cannot.

Obviously not, if you think priests are not allowed to forgive sins. They are, after all, human, and all humans can forgive sins, according to Jesus.

You might ask that church of yours to read more than 6-8 verses of Scripture on a Sunday. You might actually learn something.

The average Catholic Mass has four Scripture readings: one usually from the Old Testament (that's usually at least 6-8 verses), a Psalm (usually the whole psalm appointed for that day), a reading from one of the Epistles (again, another 6-8 verses or more), and a reading from one of the Gospels (usually 10-20 verses).

The homily may be short, and yes, there are some priests who are not very good at opening the Scripture for the parishioners, but it is almost always on the Scripture that was read. I'm sorry if the average pew-sitter in your church is so uneducated that he needs to sit through 20 minutes of sermon to understand Scripture. The average catholic is usually much more intelligent.

And, as others have pointed out, the sermon is not the main crux of the Mass. We get to commune with our God in the very real and personal sacrament of Holy Eucharist EVERY WEEK!

Does your church starve you guys for 2-3 weeks out of the month? A lot of evangelical churches only have "communion" once a month, or less often. And their "communion" is barely recognizable of what Jesus commanded, "Do this as often as ye drink it...."

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

It is only when one says that their church is the one "true" church and all others are in error that I start to have a problem. It seems to me that when someone makes this claim they are immediately following after the flesh and not the spirit. Does anyone who knows the Lord think that He can't save someone because he goes to the wrong church? How absurd.

Will you join me in correcting some of your brothers and sisters here who have said that exact thing about Catholics?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Really? What about the selling of indulgences and the inquisition and the crusades? The Catholic church makes me nervous just by how much power it has. Imagine the magnitude of power it had 500-1000 yrs ago. But that's just me...

YOUR church, if it is Christian, has in its history witch hunts and persecution of those from other faiths.

Or perhaps your church is not Christian?

 

[SantoSubito]

Really? What about the selling of indulgences and the inquisition and the crusades? The Catholic church makes me nervous just by how much power it has. Imagine the magnitude of power it had 500-1000 yrs ago. But that's just me...

The selling of indulgences was an abuse, one of the few that Luther was actually right in pointing out. As for the inquisition, the Church had only one connection to it, Church officials (called Inquisitors) examined Muslims and Jews that claimed ot have converted to Catholicism after Christians drove the Muslim Moors out of the Iberian peninsula.

The Crusades were a response to a couple of factors. First was Muslims preying on Christian pilgrims. Second, Muslims were not allowing Christians to visit the holy places. Finally, the Byzantine Emperor asked the Pope for military aid against the Islamic Turks that were ravaging the Christian Byzantine Empire. The Crusades were not evil despite what people make them out to be.

 

[Grandpa]

Obviously not, if you think priests are not allowed to forgive sins. They are, after all, human, and all humans can forgive sins, according to Jesus.

You might ask that church of yours to read more than 6-8 verses of Scripture on a Sunday. You might actually learn something.

The average Catholic Mass has four Scripture readings: one usually from the Old Testament (that's usually at least 6-8 verses), a Psalm (usually the whole psalm appointed for that day), a reading from one of the Epistles (again, another 6-8 verses or more), and a reading from one of the Gospels (usually 10-20 verses).

The homily may be short, and yes, there are some priests who are not very good at opening the Scripture for the parishioners, but it is almost always on the Scripture that was read. I'm sorry if the average pew-sitter in your church is so uneducated that he needs to sit through 20 minutes of sermon to understand Scripture. The average catholic is usually much more intelligent.

And, as others have pointed out, the sermon is not the main crux of the Mass. We get to commune with our God in the very real and personal sacrament of Holy Eucharist EVERY WEEK!

Does your church starve you guys for 2-3 weeks out of the month? A lot of evangelical churches only have "communion" once a month, or less often. And their "communion" is barely recognizable of what Jesus commanded, "Do this as often as ye drink it...."

Your first sentence is wrong. Its not that priests aren't allowed its just they don't have the capability. Only Jesus Christ atones for the soul of the sinner. We can forgive people but we can do nothing for their soul. Only Jesus can do that.

I learn more in my personal reading than I do at church, quite honestly. Church for me is usually a reminder of things I already know. Plus singing about Jesus!

The last church I went to we only had communion once every three months! The Lutheran church I went to before that we would have communion every week. I was really disappointed about having communion only once every three months. But I had lots of bible reading, prayer and fellowship.

 

[Puddles]

I seem to be filled with the Spirit at the moment, because I'd love to take this oppourtinity to remind my Christian brothers and sisters that this thread is about Confession and other features of the Catholic faith. But for some reason, this seems to be becoming a topic where passing judgement about different denominations is happening.

Remember, God loves each and every one of you. Whether you are Catholic or whatever is irrelavent in his eyes. For Scripture Says: I have loved you as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. (John 15:9) and He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us (Eph 5:2).

There are plenty of things us Christians could be passionate about. There are badly starving kids in Africa. There is considerably far too much abuse going on in Australia and NZ. Libyan's are being executed in a terrible Civil War.

But everyday I am more surprised at what really upsets and motivates Christians. Unfortunately it is rarely the above, instead we are passionate about which Denomination is best, or pass judgement on a brother struggling with some sort of sin. In Proverbs 6 it says: "There are six things that the LORD hates...someone who sows discord among brothers" is one of those things. James 2:4 says: Have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Please feel free to continue. I just felt presented with an oppourtunity to remind everyone just how special we ALL are to Jesus, that there are many things wrong with our world at the moment that need prayer...and also just how much Jesus loves us, regardless of which church we attend.

God bless you.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Taking Augustine's view on coercing heretics against their will to submit to the church, the early form of the Inquisition appeared in 1184 when Pope Lucius III required bishops to "inquire into the beliefs of their subjects."

In the Fourth Lateran Council (1215 AD), under Innocent III's leadership, the confiscation of property, excommunication for those unwilling to move against those the Catholic Church deemed heretics was established.

In 1220 the pope took the Inquisition from the hands of the bishops and turned it over to the newly formed Dominicans and nine years later the Synod of Toulouse systematized inquisitorial policies, leaving the alleged heretic with virtually no rights. The inquisitor was subject to no law, only to the pope. He was prosecutor and judge.

The "trial" was secret, and the accused had to prove his innocence, as in all courts following Roman law, without the benefit of counsel or knowledge regarding his crimes. The final, significant step came in 1252. Pope Innocent IV authorized torture as a means of getting information and confessions from accused heretics. Popes, saints, and theologians had in the past rejected with horror the very thought. But no such reserve remained after Innocent III ascended the papal throne and the Catholic church had achieved its powerful unity.

Canon Law, it is true, forbade a cleric from shedding blood. He who served the altars of the One Sacrifice must not sacrifice men. He could only hound, and interrogate, and torture the prisoner. If he found the unfortunate person guilty of heresy he turned him over to civil authorities, usually for burning at the stake. It was an ugly business.

The Waldenses, Albigenses, Jews, Muslims, and Christians deemed heretics (including Wickliffitism, Hussitism, Lutheranism, etc...) by the Catholic Church all came under Inquisition persecution.

The rule of the Inquisition was simple. If sufficient witnesses testified to the guilt of the accused, then he had to confess and renounce the errors or be burned. The reward for confession was life imprisonment, instead of the stake.

The Roman Inquisition was a system of tribunals developed by the Holy See during the second half of the 16th century, responsible for prosecuting individuals accused of a wide array of crimes related to heresy, including sorcery, immorality, blasphemy, Judaizing and witchcraft, as well for violating the censorship of printed literature prohibited in the Index of prohibited books.

The Index of prohibited books were works that any Catholic risked damnation by reading which included all the books of the Reformers and all Protestant Bibles. For a long time merely to possess one of these banned books in Spain was punishable by death and some Lutherans there, along with Jews and Jews who had converted to Christianity (though the Catholic Church pogrom in Spain was not supposed to perseucte the latter), fell victim to the Spanish Inquisition. The Index of prohibited books was actually kept up to date until 1959 when it was finally abolished by Pope Paul VI.

Many more souls than Muslims and Jews who claimed to have converted to Catholocism fell under the Inquisition.

As for the inquisition, the Church had only one connection to it, Church officials (called Inquisitors) examined Muslims and Jews that claimed ot have converted to Catholicism after Christians drove the Muslim Moors out of the Iberian peninsula.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Ironically, the Catholic Inquisition was mirrored in the Protestant witch hunts and pogroms.

YOUR church, if it is Christian, has in its history witch hunts and persecution of those from other faiths.

Or perhaps your church is not Christian?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

These discussions are good for us Puddles if we approach them right. If we do not, then yes they can become counter-productive in which case fallen creatures need MUCH grace... lol.

I seem to be filled with the Spirit at the moment, because I'd love to take this oppourtinity to remind my Christian brothers and sisters that this thread is about Confession and other features of the Catholic faith. But for some reason, this seems to be becoming a topic where passing judgement about different denominations is happening.

Remember, God loves each and every one of you. Whether you are Catholic or whatever is irrelavent in his eyes. For Scripture Says: I have loved you as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. (John 15:9) and He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us (Eph 5:2).

There are plenty of things us Christians could be passionate about. There are badly starving kids in Africa. There is considerably far too much abuse going on in Australia and NZ. Libyan's are being executed in a terrible Civil War.

But everyday I am more surprised at what really upsets and motivates Christians. Unfortunately it is rarely the above, instead we are passionate about which Denomination is best, or pass judgement on a brother struggling with some sort of sin. In Proverbs 6 it says: "There are six things that the LORD hates...someone who sows discord among brothers" is one of those things. James 2:4 says: Have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Please feel free to continue. I just felt presented with an oppourtunity to remind everyone just how special we ALL are to Jesus, that there are many things wrong with our world at the moment that need prayer...and also just how much Jesus loves us, regardless of which church we attend.

God bless you.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

The Crusades were a response to a couple of factors. First was Muslims preying on Christian pilgrims. Second, Muslims were not allowing Christians to visit the holy places. Finally, the Byzantine Emperor asked the Pope for military aid against the Islamic Turks that were ravaging the Christian Byzantine Empire. The Crusades were not evil despite what people make them out to be.

I disagree. They were evil, though no more so than the current war(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan, that so many Christians are so gung-ho about.