Catholics and Confessions

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 14, 2011

And, as you have been reminded several times, this is exactly what priests in the Catholic Church (and many other churches) do. You are aware that bearing false witness is a sin, aren't you? When will you stop sinning?

And Catholics get it both from personal reading AND from church. Hmmm.

Ah, another Pagan tradition.

As do Catholics.

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

AgeofKnowledge said:

That was my point. Not sure it's ironic, but to me it's human nature, and why we are so in need of Jesus.

Katy-follower · Sep 15, 2011

Puddles said:

It's an ungodly thing, uniting with false religions for the sake of loving each other.

Those of us born again Christians who have posted in here are not judging. Only God can do that. However, God tells us to rebuke and correct (boldly) those who are following false doctrines of man. We are not to unite with those people for the sake of loving each other. Sure, God wants us to love everyone, but we are not to ignore his word for the sake of uniting. If someone follows a false doctrine then we are not to join with them, we are to rebuke and correct, to help that person turn from what is not of God. This is showing love and this is what God calls us to do.

Rebuking and correcting is not judging. God allows us to rebuke and correct, but not judge.

You say "regardless of what church we attend" - actually, that's a very important one. There are hundreds of churches that follow false doctrines. Religion is an obstacle and a distraction, as people are confused about "which church?". In reality, there is only one way. Those who follow the traditions and false doctrines of man are not saved. Just because everyone goes to a church does not mean they are saved or that they follow the correct doctrine. Unfortunately everyone thinks they are in the right church. In reality there is only one way. That is through Jesus, noone else and nothing else. No works, Mary prayers or Eucharist, nothing. Once you turn to Christ and follow his word you will see the difference.

We are told to compare everything to the bible. This is what I do and this is what other born again Christians do. This is how I know when I see something bad and against God. I don't know anyone personally on here but I can instantly see another born again Christian, based on their fruits, the way they write, according to what God has taught.

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world"

Ephesians 5:11: "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." - this isn't just talking about the obvious one (Satanism). This is talking about any false doctrines that do not agree with God's word.

2 Timothy 4:2-3: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;"

Titus 1:13: "This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith"

Titus 2:15: "Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you"

Matthew 24:24: "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect"

2 Cor 11:13-14: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light"

False prophets and teachers can deceive you and you won't even know it. Actually - there is a way to find out - all you have to do is compare what they say and do with the bible. I've done just that and I know who is being deceived, based on their fruits. We are to look at the fruits of a person.

Did you know that the wrath of God will not just be for the false teachers, but also the ones who follow the false teachings - so think about if you are wrong about your Catholicism because you will receive the wrath. Are you sure you really know your religion? I challenge you to read the bible and take a break from what your church instructs you to do. It's that simple. Turn to God and leave everything else behind. No tradition baggage. I'm 150% sure that you will find the truth.

AgeofKnowledge · Sep 15, 2011

There are different definitions of and usages for irony. I used the definition found in the The American Heritage Dictionary's secondary meaning for irony which states: “incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs."

In the case of the Protestants, after being persecuted themselves some Protestants became persecutors.

Hence, the irony of it.

TheGrungeDiva said:

Katy-follower · Sep 15, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Katy-follower

Pretty much all of the Catholic traditions that you take part in started in Pagan Babylon.

TheGrungeDiva said:

No - because I've accepted Christ. He paid the price. I'm saved and have eternal life. I don't need to do anything. Nothing in my church building is against God's word. I pray to him, study the bible and sing praise to him. I remember his spiritual message through the bread and wine but that's it. It's all according to his word. You don't need to do Sacraments and earn your way to heaven, confess sins to a priest and say Hail Mary's. That is something unbiblical and from Pagan Babylon.

Quote:Originally Posted by Katy-follower
However, confessing sins to a priest is a serious thing and one of many traditions that goes against the bible.

TheGrungeDiva said:

You didn't read my reply then. The scripture: "Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtor" - You've taken this meaning out of context. This scripture is talking about forgiving your enemies, not forgiving sinning people.

This scripture means that those who come before God unwilling to forgive others cannot expect God to show them the love and mercy they desire. God will not show anyone the mercy and love they will not extend to others! If we forgive others when they injure us, our Father will forgive us. So - do not hate your enemies, for we are to love everyone. Nowhere in the bible does it say to forgive all the sins of another person as if you have that same authority as God.

This is where scripture is mistreated and used to justify the Catholic idea of confession.

Quote: From Katy-follower
All you have to do is compare what your church does with the bible and you will find the answers for yourself.

TheGrungeDiva said:

I agree. There are many people that turn away from God's word and fall prey to false doctrines. Many people have chosen to unite with other religions for the sake of loving each other, when really we are not to join with people who follow false doctrines, we are to correct and rebuke when we see that someone is being led astray. Yes, there are some practices taking places in churches that aren't right. But ultimately, we should be turning to God and his word, not what others tell us to do. That's where people mess up and fall victim to deception without even realizing it.

It's not about which church you are from, it's about what you are being taught. I can see what you are being taught, based on your posts. God tells us to look for the fruits and what someone says. If you post according to the bible, then it becomes very clear. The bible has taught us how to see false prophets, teachers and follower/those who are being deceived by a religion. There is no attack on people personally, it's more about exposing what those people are being taught, since I want to see others find the truth, that's all.

Quote: From Katy-follower
By the way, I don't dislike Catholics, I dislike Catholicism.

TheGrungeDiva said:

If I disliked Catholics, then I wouldn't be posting everything I do on these forums. Why would I bother? At the end of the day, I care. It's not about being right and trying to put someone down for your own selfish reasons, it's about trying to help someone to find the truth. That's all.

Actually - I'm married to a Catholic. He happens to be Peruvian (South American), so part of his culture is Catholicism - his entire family and many of our friends are all Catholic. I'm also friends with a couple of ex Catholics, one of which became a Pastor and now he tries to share his testimony with others that they may find the truth like he did.

I've been to a Catholic church service a couple of times, to take notes. It only took about 10 minutes to hear the priest say something that was not correct. The problem is the majority of Catholics do not read their bibles, so they have no idea whether what they are being taught is correct.

Anyway, I don't want an argument, I just want to share what I know.

SantoSubito · Sep 15, 2011

Katy-follower said:

Regardless you still maintain traditions that came from us, like the Trinity, and to a lesser extent the Biblical Canon.

A much more poignant passage to use to show the idea of confession is John 20:23 when Jesus said to the Apostles: "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." They had this power because of their Apostolic authority, which has been passed down even to this day.

In fact the idea of private confession just to God wasn't even prevalent in 70 AD, as the Didache says:

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

It would help if you actually met with us on an intellectual basis, instead of propagating the lie that we're pagans or our Church is pagan.

Indeed, and I pray everyday that your husband may remain in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

The old adage that Catholics don't read their Bibles is false. If you take a poll you'll find theres the same percentage of frequent Bible reading Catholics as there are frequent Bible reading Protestants

zone · Sep 15, 2011

AgeofKnowledge said:

The Wars of Religion and the 30 Years War

http://www.indepthinfo.com/history/30-years-war.htm

~

covered also in this lecture by an historian (with a sense of humour...a good listen)

September 09, 2011

Christianity in America: Rationalism and Revivalism in the 1700s

• Christianity in America: Rationalism and Revivalism in the 1700s

Fighting for the Faith

AgeofKnowledge · Sep 15, 2011

Thanks zone. I'll take a look and listen today.

zone said:

The Wars of Religion and the 30 Years War

http://www.indepthinfo.com/history/30-years-war.htm

~

covered also in this lecture by an historian (with a sense of humour...a good listen)

September 09, 2011

Christianity in America: Rationalism and Revivalism in the 1700s

• Christianity in America: Rationalism and Revivalism in the 1700s

Fighting for the Faith

Consumed · Sep 15, 2011

One thing you have to hand it the Catholics when it comes to "it's is written"

The teaching to Confess sin (hail marys is concern for me as penance but)
Marriage, they won't remarry divorced catholics but only for adultry(act of fortification)
Abortion - murder of life
Male clergy (except the man made rule not married)

Grandpa · Sep 15, 2011

TheGrungeDiva said:

I didn't realize how bad off the Catholic church was. I had thought they have been reforming themselves as common sense would dictate.

You don't find it dangerous to replace the Lord Jesus Christ with your priests and bishops?

You've been saying how much you read the bible and how much it is read in your church. Have you gotten to the part about why it was necessary for the Lord Jesus to be crucified?

I'm not bearing false witness. It seems to me you need some more theses nailed to your door.

Does SantoSubito believe this too??

Grandpa · Sep 15, 2011

TheGrungeDiva said:

LOL. You accuse me of paganism because I sing about Jesus. Does your bible have the Psalms in it?

Catholicism has you all goofed up.

Come out of her, my people.

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

Katy-follower said:

No, what's ungodly is thinking you have the right to judge another person's belief and faith in Christ.

Every one of the Catholic doctrines comes from Scripture. Now, you may disagree with their interpretation of Scripture, but just because you disagree doesn't mean God disagrees.

As I've said before, I disagree with some Catholic doctrine. My understanding of Scripture, and of who Jesus is, as revealed by that Scripture, does not jibe with what they teach. But I also know that their teachings are Scripturally sound and well reasoned. God has blessed the Catholic Church for 2000 years. The least you can do would be to respect her, if you don't agree with her.

But no, you think God appointed you personally as the ultimate authority. Not millions of men and women with centuries of Scriptural study under their belt, but YOU.

I don't think so.

Many of your beliefs are just as "wrong" according to Scripture. Yet, I don't say that you're satanic or going to hell. I wish you'd stop spouting them as if they were absolute truth, but I don't think God will damn you for believing them, no matter how wrong they are.

Very few Catholics have been dogmatic about their beliefs here. They will explain what they believe and why, but very few have said that if you disagree you're going to hell. Perhaps you can extend to them the same courtesy. After all, God does, perhaps you can, too.

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

AgeofKnowledge said:

There are different definitions of and usages for irony. I used the definition found in the The American Heritage Dictionary's secondary meaning for irony which states: “incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs."

In the case of the Protestants, after being persecuted themselves some Protestants became persecutors.

Hence, the irony of it.

Okay, I'll buy that for a nickle.

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

Grandpa said:

If such a practice were carried on, I would indeed find it both dangerous and problematic. Since I am not aware of any church, least of all the Catholic Church, doing this, there is no danger. Priests and bishops do not REPLACE Jesus, ever. At certain times, in certain situations, they REPRESENT Jesus, just as every one of us is called to be Jesus to our sisters and brothers.

Yes. And the Catholic Church teaches this.

Have you gotten to the part about not bearing false witness?

Honey, every time you tell a lie about what the Catholic Church teaches, you are bearing false witness.

You have told lies about what the Catholic Church teaches. You have been informed that they are lies, but you have not retracted. Therefore, you are bearing false witness.

For your information, I was raised Lutheran. I think I know a little bit about nailing theses.

SantoSubito · Sep 15, 2011

Consumed said:

Honestly I don't think Hail Marys are prescribed as penance that often. Out of the innumerable times I've been to Confession I've never once had Hail Marys given as a penance.

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

Grandpa said:

Sorry, you must have missed the previous conversation. I pointed out that singing hymns of praise to God was a pagan tradition. It is. Yes, the Psalms are one example of hymns of praise to God, but before they were written, pagan churches were writing and singing their own psalms.

I do not actually believe singing praise to Jesus is wrong. Of course, as a professional Church Musician, I do it myself all the time. I do wish to point out, however, that there is not a single practice in your church that is either completely un-Biblical (like flowers on the altar) OR was started by pagans. So saying something is wrong has pagan roots is meaningless.

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

SantoSubito said:

This is another case of culture depicting Catholicism wrong.

Would you be willing to share with the board what some of your penances have been? I understand that it is a private thing, and you may not want to share, but I think it might help people understand Catholicism better.

One time I was given penance, I had to forgive someone who had wronged me. It was very very difficult to do, because I had been holding the grudge for so long. But as soon as I did, it was almost magical, the way the weight was lifted from me.

Now, if someone could explain to me how that is unbiblical, I am, as the Ferengi say, all ears.

Grandpa · Sep 15, 2011

TheGrungeDiva said:

I've asked you direct questions several times and made direct statements about the error of what you believe. All you say is that I am bearing false witness. I say I am most assuredly not.

Priests and bishops cannot atone for the soul of a sinner. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can do this. If a person were given the power to forgive sins and atone for the soul of sinners then they could theoretically forgive their own sins, right? Only someone who is perfect can forgive sins and atone for the soul. Only the Lord Jesus can do this.

Your church is attempting to replace Jesus and His authority. Not represent, replace. It is one thing to lead someone to the Lord. It is quite another to lead someone to a church and a priest.

Do you remember in the bible where David says "I've sinned against you Lord, and only against you have I sinned." When we sin it is against God. That is why God must forgive the sin. A man cannot forgive a sin that is against God. Right?

TheGrungeDiva · Sep 15, 2011

Grandpa said:

No, you have not. You have talked at me. You have never asked me a direct question. If you have a direct question, I will be happy to answer it for you.

No, you haven't. You haven't even bothered to learn what I believe, how could you possibly make statements about any errors there may be? You don't even know what the Catholic Church teaches, let alone what I may or may not believe.

What you have done, repeatedly, is stated what YOU THINK Catholics believe, and then stated how those beliefs are in error.

However, you have been informed, REPEATEDLY, that what YOU THINK Catholics believe is not, actually, what the Catholic Church teaches. And rather than say, "Oh, sorry, I was mistaken. I'm glad you are not accepting of these erroneous beliefs," you say, "No, you don't know what you believe. You actually believe this other false thing, not what you think you believe."

And you wonder why we're calling you to the carpet for it? Not only is that rude, and VERY un-Christ-like behavior, it is false witness in any sense of the word. And the more you deny it, the more you sin.

And once again, I will state that the Catholic Church does not teach this. Anyone who told you that the Catholic Church teaches this was either mistaken or just plain lying (I could believe either). How many times am I going to have to tell you that the Catholic Church does not teach this before you decide maybe your information is incorrect?

As you, and others, have pointed out, there is a difference between "atoning for ones sins" and "forgiving the sins of someone else." Any human can, and according to Scripture MUST, forgive the sins of others who have wronged them. When I forgive the sins of someone who has wronged me, I am not atoning for his sins. When God forgives my sins, God is not atoning for my sins, but is forgiving them. Jesus atoned for my sins on the cross. Once for all.

I'm not sure why you can't get it through your thick skull. If you could just admit that you were mistaken about this, we could probably make great inroads to open, honest discussion. But you refuse, like an ostrich with your head in the sand, insisting that it's night just because you see darkness. Honestly, it's infuriating.

AgeofKnowledge · Sep 15, 2011

Before paganism was monotheism. Simply because archological evidence doesn't go back to the Garden of Eden and the monotheistic people directly after expulsion from the Garden before polytheistic paganism took hold does not mean there was no singing occurring there.

And from a purely secular scientific perspective, research on the evolutionary origins of prehistoric music didn't even really progress until the second half of the 19th century and modernist classical music aside, "the important biological question of how music evolved still remains" (reference An Introduction to Evolutionary Musicology) in academic circles. But archeologists show an explosion on the earth upon the sudden arrival of modern humans in the areas of art, fashion, etc... (with physical evidence attesting to it specifically from the Earliest Upper Paleolithic period) that completely transcends anything the homonid populations were capable of all predating known pagan societies.

In the Bible, we find Angels singing and angels were created long before this universe was.

You cannot say with any certainty that music and singing began with pagans.

TheGrungeDiva said:

Catholics and Confessions

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