Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
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Well, under sign gifts the common understanding is: speaking in tongues, prophecie, and healings.
Out of them there are many spiritual gifts which we find in Pauls list in Romans 12 ore 1. Cor. 12, which are still there in the church.
The Gifts you are calling for today you find only in pentecostal churches ore in charismatic movements, which are meanwhile to find in almost every denomination.
The beginning is to find in Topeka and then from Azusa outgoing into the world.
Thats history. And the pentecostal movement is proud to call this as their beginning of a new pentecost.
In the beginning in germany the Christians first thought it is from God, but then realized that is not.
Out of them there are many spiritual gifts which we find in Pauls list in Romans 12 ore 1. Cor. 12, which are still there in the church.
The Gifts you are calling for today you find only in pentecostal churches ore in charismatic movements, which are meanwhile to find in almost every denomination.
The beginning is to find in Topeka and then from Azusa outgoing into the world.
Thats history. And the pentecostal movement is proud to call this as their beginning of a new pentecost.
In the beginning in germany the Christians first thought it is from God, but then realized that is not.
You make an interesting (and in all likelihood valid) point, Simona. What I really, really like in your contribution though, is your use of "avant la lettre". I just had to reply. I think we can say that your idiomatic use of the phrase - well, your use of it, idiomatic or not, really - has singlehandedly put the nay-sayers into a tailspin. No comeback at all. "¿Que?", they seem to be asking.
The irony is that continuationists are accused of being experience-oriented while their cessationist friends are more word-based. But where the cessationists experience no gifts operating in their churches, they conclude that they have ceased - and nimbly sidestep scripture that goes against their view!
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I would be interested in any reference from Scripture where either Jesus or Paul said directly that tongues, healing and prophecy were just for the Apostolic Age and were not to continue afterward. I'm not too interested in any quotes by 19th Century theologians who wrest 1 Corinthians 13:8 out of its proper context to words into Paul's mouth that he never said.
I take the definition of "sign" gifts that they are signs that the Kingdom of God is with us. I am not aware that the Kingdom of God has left us and gone somewhere, maybe on vacation. So, if the Kingdom of God is still with us, then the gifts that show the appropriate sign must also be with us still.
I take the definition of "sign" gifts that they are signs that the Kingdom of God is with us. I am not aware that the Kingdom of God has left us and gone somewhere, maybe on vacation. So, if the Kingdom of God is still with us, then the gifts that show the appropriate sign must also be with us still.
The waters have been totally muddied by the general unbelief in the modern manifestation of the spiritual gifts. In the same way that Jesus couldn't do any mighty works in His home town because of unbelief, many modern churches are so infected with unbelief with cessationist doctrine or influences from modern western science, that they cannot exercise faith in God's Word concerning spiritual gifts.
We have many churches that have resorted to worldly wisdom to serve up to their members, using secular business practices and liberal teaching that extracts all the miraculous, leaving members with just man's words of religious wisdom. Paul told the Corinthians that he was coming to them not with man's wisdom but with the demonstration of the Spirit and with power. In most of today's churches the preacher comes to them not with demonstration of the Spirit and power but with man's wisdom. The cart is put before the horse.
But in third world countries, more of the miraculous is seen, because there is not medical welfare in many places, and people need to be healed by the power of God or else they die. So the issues are quite different, and they have a greater view of the supernatural, and that they don't have western science to muddy the waters for them.
The key words are "those who believe". There is a great difference between religious, church-going people, and true believers.
We have many churches that have resorted to worldly wisdom to serve up to their members, using secular business practices and liberal teaching that extracts all the miraculous, leaving members with just man's words of religious wisdom. Paul told the Corinthians that he was coming to them not with man's wisdom but with the demonstration of the Spirit and with power. In most of today's churches the preacher comes to them not with demonstration of the Spirit and power but with man's wisdom. The cart is put before the horse.
But in third world countries, more of the miraculous is seen, because there is not medical welfare in many places, and people need to be healed by the power of God or else they die. So the issues are quite different, and they have a greater view of the supernatural, and that they don't have western science to muddy the waters for them.
The key words are "those who believe". There is a great difference between religious, church-going people, and true believers.
Where in the epistles does it say that the gifts that show the sign that the Kingdom of God is with us did not continue? If the gifts were the sign to Israel that Jesus was the true Messiah, then the same gifts would be a sign to us that Jesus is our true Messiah.
And the Jews required signs in the heavens, and spiritual gifts are not those kind of signs. A bit of understanding about the type of signs that the Jews expected as evidence of the Messiah would go a long way to understanding what those particular signs were. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers all right, but they are a sign to all unbelievers, including those in our modern time.
If the sign gifts are absent in our churches today, then there is no evidence that the Kingdom of God is present in the churches. In many churches where the members are just religious church-goers and with pastors preaching man's wisdom in the absence of the demonstration of the Spirit and power, it could very well be believed that churches like that are nowhere near the Kingdom of God.
And the Jews required signs in the heavens, and spiritual gifts are not those kind of signs. A bit of understanding about the type of signs that the Jews expected as evidence of the Messiah would go a long way to understanding what those particular signs were. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers all right, but they are a sign to all unbelievers, including those in our modern time.
If the sign gifts are absent in our churches today, then there is no evidence that the Kingdom of God is present in the churches. In many churches where the members are just religious church-goers and with pastors preaching man's wisdom in the absence of the demonstration of the Spirit and power, it could very well be believed that churches like that are nowhere near the Kingdom of God.
Very true! The vast majority of continuationists are soundly Scripture-based, and many hold strongly to Scripture even when they don't see any visual evidence of the gifts being manifested. They are not worried by the absence of the gifts in their churches. They know how difficult it is for ordinary church-goers to have the necessary faith to manifest them. But that does not stop them holding to the Scripture that the gift are present and available for today's churches, because they put experiences in second place to clear Scripture.
Cessationists, on the other hand, put their experiences that show absence of the gifts in first place and the Scripture in second. They choose to believe a 19th Century theologian's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8 as the foundation for their doctrine, instead of the many Scripture references to the contrary.
Cessationists, on the other hand, put their experiences that show absence of the gifts in first place and the Scripture in second. They choose to believe a 19th Century theologian's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8 as the foundation for their doctrine, instead of the many Scripture references to the contrary.
The Scripture doesn't say that. They did not believe in Him as the miracle-working Messiah because He had grown up with those people, and His mother and siblings were still living there. They viewed him through the flesh as an ordinary man. Jesus said by way of explanation that a prophet is not without honour except in his own country among his own family.
It reminds me of the person who introduced Sir Percival Curruthers-Smythe, PhD, D.D., the world's expert in Hebrew and Greek original manuscripts. He said, "I knew old Percy when we were children, and I remember when he pushed the little girl over on the playground and stole her lollipop!" How do you think the audience would view the great man after that?
This is similar to the people of Jesus' home town. "We knew him when he was a snotty nosed little kid running around playing with the other kids. How could he be a miracle working Messiah?"
It reminds me of the person who introduced Sir Percival Curruthers-Smythe, PhD, D.D., the world's expert in Hebrew and Greek original manuscripts. He said, "I knew old Percy when we were children, and I remember when he pushed the little girl over on the playground and stole her lollipop!" How do you think the audience would view the great man after that?
This is similar to the people of Jesus' home town. "We knew him when he was a snotty nosed little kid running around playing with the other kids. How could he be a miracle working Messiah?"
// If the gifts were the sign to Israel that Jesus was the true Messiah, then the same gifts would be a sign to us that Jesus is our true Messiah.//
No ,because the gentiles were not seeking signs ,but ' wisdom ' .
1 Corinthians 1:22
“For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:”
Jesus earthly ministry programmatically is to Israel . He is presented as Israels ' Jewish messiah '
No ,because the gentiles were not seeking signs ,but ' wisdom ' .
1 Corinthians 1:22
“For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:”
Jesus earthly ministry programmatically is to Israel . He is presented as Israels ' Jewish messiah '
I think you have undermined your own position. Only those who have faith in Jesus will come to him. If they don't have faith they won't come to Him. Therefore if they don't come to Him, He can't heal them. If they can't get over the memory of him as a snotty nosed little kid playing with the other children, they wouldn't have the faith that He was the miracle-worker who could heal them.
This has nothing to do with a fake Healing evangelist telling people who are not healed that they don't have enough faith.
This has nothing to do with a fake Healing evangelist telling people who are not healed that they don't have enough faith.
That's not what we see all through the gospels . All those that came Jesus healed ect . Clearly in his own town he could not do many ( Notice ' not many ' ) . Through unbelief many would not have come to him . The verse says nothing about Jesus being unable because he could only do miracles if the other person ' had enough faith ' . No Jesus was very capable of doing miracles, he didn't need help.
Look at the pattern .
Matthew 8
¶When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes FOLLOWED him.
2And, behold, there CAME a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3¶And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And IMMEDIATELY leprosy was cleansed.
4¶And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
(Luke 7:1–10 )
5¶And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there CAME UNTO HIM came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7¶And Jesus saith unto him, I WILL COME AND HEAL HIM .
8¶The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10¶When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
(Mark 1:29–31; Luke 4:38, 39 )
14¶And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
15And he TOUCHED her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
(Mark 1:32–34; Luke 4:40, 41 )
16¶When the even was come, THEY BROUGHT UNTO HIM MANY that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Look at the pattern .
Matthew 8
¶When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes FOLLOWED him.
2And, behold, there CAME a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3¶And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And IMMEDIATELY leprosy was cleansed.
4¶And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
(Luke 7:1–10 )
5¶And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there CAME UNTO HIM came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7¶And Jesus saith unto him, I WILL COME AND HEAL HIM .
8¶The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10¶When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
(Mark 1:29–31; Luke 4:38, 39 )
14¶And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
15And he TOUCHED her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
(Mark 1:32–34; Luke 4:40, 41 )
16¶When the even was come, THEY BROUGHT UNTO HIM MANY that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
If they don't come to him why would Jesus heal them ? There not there to heal . Jesus doesn't hear there ailment. This is how it worked . First a person would come to Jesus and ask for the help . If they didn't come then they were not healed. This is basic stuff here . Through not Believing Jesus was the messaih they wouldn't come to him . Why would they ask a carpenter/ a regular Jew for healing?
You can quote all the Scriptures you like, but until our churches start obeying God's Word in other foundation areas, we won't see many miracles. While there is a general lack of love, and believers of one religious persuasion attacking and criticizing others, and man's wisdom being preached, none of the scriptures you quoted will have their equivalents.