Cessationism

[BenFTW]

The consensus seems to be, "Well, I don't think I have any gifts, so obviously any others claiming to operate in them must be lying."

But get this! We put experience over God's word.

 

[maxwel]

The consensus seems to be, "Well, I don't think I have any gifts, so obviously any others claiming to operate in them must be lying."

I have the gift of irritation.

I'd tell Willie not to be jealous of my gift...
but I think he has it too.

 

[Willie-T]

I have the gift of irritation.

I'd tell Willie not to be jealous of my gift...
but I think he has it too.

My wife just said I flow in that gifting quite naturally.

 

[beastslayer1970]

What is even worse, when the anti-christ is revealed (after the Pre-trib Rapture), The Bible tells us there are going to be miracles (like of old) that will happen to further convince people that away from GOD. They will not be His.

I think the false prophet will do miracles to deceive people into thinking the beast is Jesus Christ.

 

[Willie-T]

I think the false prophet will do miracles to deceive people into thinking the beast is Jesus Christ.

........ or, as many verses are interpreted, that Jesus Christ is the Beast.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The problem there is not with believing that the gifts are still in operation, but rather that there are people being deceitful to push said false doctrines. Scripture warns us of this and yes, it is a real problem. But I've seen and heard so many people use this as reasoning for why the gifts have ceased altogether which is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

It is not "the gifts" which have ceased but "the SIGN GIFTS" which have ceased. People who promote the idea that the sign gifts are for today either ignore or forget the reason why the sign gifts were given, and why they would not continue indefinitely. And of course, when money-motivated charlatans claim to have have miracle-working powers, it is all the more reason to believe that the genuine sign gifts were withdrawn after the Apostolic Period.

So what about all the other gifts, and their neglect? It is precisely because the focus immediately goes to phony tongues and phony healings. While Paul did not state plainly that miraculous healings would cease, the epistle of James strongly implies it, since the recommendation for Divine healing should now be the prayers of the elders. But Paul clearly stated that prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease, and cease they did.

 

[Dino246]

It is not "the gifts" which have ceased but "the SIGN GIFTS" which have ceased. People who promote the idea that the sign gifts are for today either ignore or forget the reason why the sign gifts were given, and why they would not continue indefinitely. And of course, when money-motivated charlatans claim to have have miracle-working powers, it is all the more reason to believe that the genuine sign gifts were withdrawn after the Apostolic Period.

So what about all the other gifts, and their neglect? It is precisely because the focus immediately goes to phony tongues and phony healings. While Paul did not state plainly that miraculous healings would cease, the epistle of James strongly implies it, since the recommendation for Divine healing should now be the prayers of the elders. But Paul clearly stated that prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease, and cease they did.

I can certainly understand why someone would believe this if all they have seen is charlatans. Those who have seen firsthand the real gifts in operation (even one of them) cannot accept your view. I don't expect you to change your view to suit my experience, but by the same principle, why would I change mine to match your interpretation?

Regarding miraculous healings, I would encourage you to read Craig Keener's recent book on miracles. He has collected testimonies of healings that simply defy natural explanation. I've observed such things.

One question I have for you specifically: do you ever ask God a question, seek direction, or anything of the sort? How does He answer you?

 

[DJ2]

But get this! We put experience over God's word.

It's not experience over God's word but experience over common sense and reason.

It is nonsensical and unreasonable to believe that the miraculous age of the 1st century is still with us today. This is the consensus.

 

[BenFTW]

I can certainly understand why someone would believe this if all they have seen is charlatans. Those who have seen firsthand the real gifts in operation (even one of them) cannot accept your view. I don't expect you to change your view to suit my experience, but by the same principle, why would I change mine to match your interpretation?

Regarding miraculous healings, I would encourage you to read Craig Keener's recent book on miracles. He has collected testimonies of healings that simply defy natural explanation. I've observed such things.

One question I have for you specifically: do you ever ask God a question, seek direction, or anything of the sort? How does He answer you?

I already foresee the response. "There is no new revelation." This is why you'll often see Cessationists denying that we can have actual fellowship with God, actually hear His voice, and receive direction.

 

[beastslayer1970]

........ or, as many verses are interpreted, that Jesus Christ is the Beast.

I am tired and get dense when I do, what do you mean by this?

 

[BenFTW]

It's not experience over God's word but experience over common sense and reason.

It is nonsensical and unreasonable to believe that the miraculous age of the 1st century is still with us today. This is the consensus.

Your common sense isn't reasonable.

 

[Nehemiah6]

One question I have for you specifically: do you ever ask God a question, seek direction, or anything of the sort? How does He answer you?

All the time. God answers my questions (a) through His Word, (b) through His inner "still small" voice, (d) through other Christians, and (e) through circumstances which indicate an answer.

 

[BenFTW]

All the time. God answers my questions (a) through His Word, (b) through His inner "still small" voice, (d) through other Christians, and (e) through circumstances which indicate an answer.

"Through His inner "still small" voice." So you aren't one of those guys who believe that since we have God's word He no longer speaks to us personally?

 

[shrume]

All the time. God answers my questions (a) through His Word, (b) through His inner "still small" voice, (d) through other Christians, and (e) through circumstances which indicate an answer.

That, my friend, is revelation. More specifically, word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That, my friend, is revelation. More specifically, word of knowledge and/or word of wisdom.

And those are not sign gifts. Since I already said that there are many other gifts which are still operational (other than sign gifts), then words of knowledge and wisdom would certainly continue. Extraordinary faith (as a spiritual gift), discerning of spirits, helps, governments, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and of course the greatest gift of all -- agape love -- called charity. There are of course other gifts also.

 

[DJ2]

My experiences with the charismatic movement has been one of blatant fraud. Constant claims of the miraculous yet a total lack of proof. A group of people actually eager to speak of the miraculous but unwilling to use these "gifts" to help those most in need of the miraculous. I have sincerely asked many charismatic groups who claim these gifts to come with me on my rounds and heal those in severe suffering conditions. Never a response.

Can anyone guess why?

 

[DJ2]

Your common sense isn't reasonable.

Regardless, it is the consensus.

 

[shrume]

And those are not sign gifts. Since I already said that there are many other gifts which are still operational (other than sign gifts), then words of knowledge and wisdom would certainly continue. Extraordinary faith (as a spiritual gift), discerning of spirits, helps, governments, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and of course the greatest gift of all -- agape love -- called charity. There are of course other gifts also.

Didn’t you say earlier that you believed knowledge has ceased?

And what is a “sign gift”? Where is that in the Bible?

 

[Willie-T]

My experiences with the charismatic movement has been one of blatant fraud. Constant claims of the miraculous yet a total lack of proof. A group of people actually eager to speak of the miraculous but unwilling to use these "gifts" to help those most in need of the miraculous. I have sincerely asked many charismatic groups who claim these gifts to come with me on my rounds and heal those in severe suffering conditions. Never a response.

Can anyone guess why?

Yes, I can guess why. You seem to be wanting to use healing like a free cart of pills... yet none of the people you spoke of seemed to be asking Jesus for healing, themselves. You seem to want to make a carnival show of it.

 

[DJ2]

Yes, I can guess why. You seem to be wanting to use healing like a free cart of pills... yet none of the people you spoke of seemed to be asking Jesus for healing, themselves. You seem to want to make a carnival show of it.

Those still able to speak do certainly ask for healing but many are not able to ask verbally but it is clearly in their eyes.