Charismatics and Penticostals Need you Opinion Part 2 n

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L

Lifelike

Guest
Ok ill say it clearer. What specific benefit is there ...as they say...operating the gifts in 1 cor 12.
That those who dont would not have the benefit of.

As far as humility goes. That comes from the grace God gives to let us see our true selves before Him.
I love your slant on the gifts, you dont know what you need. God rules, He decides, its His kingdom, His ways, its all about Him. Its not about us and what we think or feel we need or dont need. If God gives gifts, He has a reason for it, and a purpose, that flows out of the fullness of who He is, and if God is giving, then we should receive and walk in all that He has prepared beforehand that we should walk in.

I gues it comes down to your Cessation theology again, you see the only purpose of the gifts fulfilled in that era. Thats an assumption, and is not reflected in scripture, nor in history, nor in reality.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
I love your slant on the gifts, you dont know what you need. God rules, He decides, its His kingdom, His ways, its all about Him. Its not about us and what we think or feel we need or dont need. If God gives gifts, He has a reason for it, and a purpose, that flows out of the fullness of who He is, and if God is giving, then we should receive and walk in all that He has prepared beforehand that we should walk in.

I gues it comes down to your Cessation theology again, you see the only purpose of the gifts fulfilled in that era. Thats an assumption, and is not reflected in scripture, nor in history, nor in reality.
1. not all cessation believe that ALL the gifts have ceased, just what they call the "foundation laying gifts" example: tongues, prophecy, direct revelation/ knowledge, prophets, apostles

2. how do you know Abiding is a cessationist?

3. I agree that we should walk in the good works God has prepared and equipped us for, just wondering which gifts you have personally witness in the lives of believers?
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
1. not all cessation believe that ALL the gifts have ceased, just what they call the "foundation laying gifts" example: tongues, prophecy, direct revelation/ knowledge, prophets, apostles

2. how do you know Abiding is a cessationist?

3. I agree that we should walk in the good works God has prepared and equipped us for, just wondering which gifts you have personally witness in the lives of believers?


1. What makes you think tongues and prohecy and direct knowledge/ revelation is only foundational?

2. Because ive seen him in action

3. All of them... Im part of a network of hundreds of churches in aust, africa, america, england, the gifts of the spirit are very active in the work of our ministry and those associated with us. But its in the fruit not the gifting that God judges.
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
Ok ill say it clearer. What specific benefit is there ...as they say...operating the gifts in 1 cor 12.
That those who dont would not have the benefit of.

As far as humility goes. That comes from the grace God gives to let us see our true selves before Him.

The blind see, the lame walk, the deaf hear, the sick get healed, the bound get free, the dead are raised, the kingdom of God is manifested on the earth. The authority and governemt of God on earth is neccessary for His Kingdom to exist.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I love your slant on the gifts, you dont know what you need. God rules, He decides, its His kingdom, His ways, its all about Him. Its not about us and what we think or feel we need or dont need. If God gives gifts, He has a reason for it, and a purpose, that flows out of the fullness of who He is, and if God is giving, then we should receive and walk in all that He has prepared beforehand that we should walk in.

I gues it comes down to your Cessation theology again, you see the only purpose of the gifts fulfilled in that era. Thats an assumption, and is not reflected in scripture, nor in history, nor in reality.
Awww you never once read me saying cessation ...:)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnandaHya
1. not all cessation believe that ALL the gifts have ceased, just what they call the "foundation laying gifts" example: tongues, prophecy, direct revelation/ knowledge, prophets, apostles

2. how do you know Abiding is a cessationist?

3. I agree that we should walk in the good works God has prepared and equipped us for, just wondering which gifts you have personally witness in the lives of believers?


1. What makes you think tongues and prohecy and direct knowledge/ revelation is only foundational?

2. Because ive seen him in action

3. All of them... Im part of a network of hundreds of churches in aust, africa, america, england, the gifts of the spirit are very active in the work of our ministry and those associated with us. But its in the fruit not the gifting that God judges.
__________________
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#2....what did you "see"?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abiding
Ok ill say it clearer. What specific benefit is there ...as they say...operating the gifts in 1 cor 12.
That those who dont would not have the benefit of.

As far as humility goes. That comes from the grace God gives to let us see our true selves before Him.
lifelike:`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
The blind see, the lame walk, the deaf hear, the sick get healed, the bound get free, the dead are raised, the kingdom of God is manifested on the earth. The authority and governemt of God on earth is neccessary for His Kingdom to exist.

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What is the point of this? Had you thought someone had said God had lost His Sovereignty on earth?
Or that He needed us in order to fulfill His ends? Im really missing the points of you posts.
 
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A

AnandaHya

Guest


do you really expect a clear sighted answer?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
The blind see, the lame walk, the deaf hear, the sick get healed, the bound get free, the dead are raised, the kingdom of God is manifested on the earth. The authority and governemt of God on earth is neccessary for His Kingdom to exist.
when do we get our servant badges?
you NAR guys are the leaders, right?

the rest of us take orders...something like that?

the manifest sons of god dominionist thingee?

*sigh*

FALSE...ALL OF YOU....your whole system is BOGUS. and heretical.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
The blind see, the lame walk, the deaf hear, the sick get healed, the bound get free, the dead are raised, the kingdom of God is manifested on the earth. The authority and governemt of God on earth is neccessary for His Kingdom to exist.
can i get some stats on people coming out of their graves please?
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
Then you got this Zonafide amillennial thing-a-ma-bob, where we are presently living in the 1,000 yr. reign with Christ and have been for the last 2,000 plus yrs. as a church and Satan has been bound all this time and we did not even know it. The nations and kingdoms of the earth have had absolutely no deception to worry about over these last 2,000 yrs.,because the god of this world system has been chained up in the bottomless pit with some power on the earth, but we don't know how to define just what that power might include or how much.

Then we have Israel as the church and there is no mystery of Christ and the church, no mystery of fellowship (those are out) and if you believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church or anything to do with dispensational truth, you are a heretical evil person that is suffering from major deception. If you believe that Christ could come back for His church and bride at any moment you are worse than being deceived, you have been fanatically fooled and there is going to be a fake rapture orchestrated by the Illuminati to prove it all. This is some of the things that come with this Zonefide Amillennial Eschatology Package, that many are flocking to in these last days because they have been living under a cloud of delusion through Darby, Scofield, Pentecost, Chafer, Larkin and many others who are also deceived and have damaged and hindered the church considerably.
 
J

Jullianna

Guest
Thanks for all who gave your opinion on part 1

Heres my question this time: What do the gifts do for you that
cant be done without them?

Im not talking about the different abilities we receive as we are placed into the body
Or the grace we receive daily. I mean the manifestations in 1 Cor 12. Since this is
a point of dispute in the church, id like to know what the benefits are realized by
those who practice them.

Ive seen those who believe in the use of these gifts get from angry to show pity on
those who do not believe they are valid, and it interests me to know what value they
have that others without them wouldnt have. thanks:)
Hey Abiding. Great question. :) Although I'm neither a "charismatic" or "pentecostal" (I don't do labels or denominations because of the one Body/one Spirit thing set out in Romans, Ephesians and Philippeans), until the age of 17 (when I began digging into the scriptures for truth rather than falling for man-made tenants of faith) I attended churches that might be labeled by some as such because the scriptures did not follow the teaching that all have/had the same gifts, and because I felt that the gifts were being worshipped rather than the Giver; however, I hope you don't mind my response to your question. :)

I would not think that the gifts set out below that I've highlighted in pink might be edifying to the Body on a daily basis for the common good, as intended, especially in light of the fact that there's not much of a language barrier in my community; but I can certainly see how those in blue would be, even if those so gifted don't recognized them as such:


1 Corinthians 12 1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[
a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don’t need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don’t need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[
d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Within the body of believers in my community there are amazingly gifted teachers, counselors (knowledge and wisdom), those with servants' hearts, and those who encourage us all by their abundance of faith. These gifts are still serving the Body as they did back in the day, at least where I live. :) We can see them at work in these forums at times as well, even when, again, we may not fully recognize them for what they are.

It appears that you may have experienced anger born of pridefulness that occurs when some attempt to lord their gifts over others who may have more subtle giftings. I'm so sorry for that. I've fallen victim to it as well, particularly in younger years.

I'm sorry I missed Part 1. I may have to dig it up and see what it was. :)

May God richly bless you for not only asking an actual biblical question in this forum, but for your loving attitude in seeking your answers and your pleas against personal attacks.

In Christ, Jules :)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Hey Abiding. Great question. :) Although I'm neither a "charismatic" or "pentecostal" (I don't do labels or denominations because of the one Body/one Spirit thing set out in Romans, Ephesians and Philippeans), until the age of 17 (when I began digging into the scriptures for truth rather than falling for man-made tenants of faith) I attended churches that might be labeled by some as such because the scriptures did not follow the teaching that all have/had the same gifts, and because I felt that the gifts were being worshipped rather than the Giver; however, I hope you don't mind my response to your question. :)

I would not think that the gifts set out below that I've highlighted in pink might be edifying to the Body on a daily basis for the common good, as intended, especially in light of the fact that there's not much of a language barrier in my community; but I can certainly see how those in blue would be, even if those so gifted don't recognized them as such:


1 Corinthians 12 1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[
a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don’t need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don’t need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[
d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Within the body of believers in my community there are amazingly gifted teachers, counselors (knowledge and wisdom), those with servants' hearts, and those who encourage us all by their abundance of faith. These gifts are still serving the Body as they did back in the day, at least where I live. :) We can see them at work in these forums at times as well, even when, again, we may not fully recognize them for what they are.

It appears that you may have experienced anger born of pridefulness that occurs when some attempt to lord their gifts over others who may have more subtle giftings. I'm so sorry for that. I've fallen victim to it as well, particularly in younger years.

I'm sorry I missed Part 1. I may have to dig it up and see what it was. :)

May God richly bless you for not only asking an actual biblical question in this forum, but for your loving attitude in seeking your answers and your pleas against personal attacks.

In Christ, Jules :)


Nope, actually Ive had really no bad experiences in a church. Although ive been in some nutty ones.
I just never stayed. They say there is no such thing as a perfect church...but it seems ive always been
able to find plenty that were perfect to me. just wanted to talk to folks and hear their answers.

I have found that the Holyspirit does wonderful work unifying the body and gifting the church and working
ministry beyond understanding without the common manifestations i hear about. A work deep in the heart.
Just wanted to try the thread to hear what people had to say. Thanks for stopping by Jullianna.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Then you got this Zonafide amillennial thing-a-ma-bob, where we are presently living in the 1,000 yr. reign with Christ and have been for the last 2,000 plus yrs. as a church and Satan has been bound all this time and we did not even know it. The nations and kingdoms of the earth have had absolutely no deception to worry about over these last 2,000 yrs.,because the god of this world system has been chained up in the bottomless pit with some power on the earth, but we don't know how to define just what that power might include or how much.

Then we have Israel as the church and there is no mystery of Christ and the church, no mystery of fellowship (those are out) and if you believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church or anything to do with dispensational truth, you are a heretical evil person that is suffering from major deception. If you believe that Christ could come back for His church and bride at any moment you are worse than being deceived, you have been fanatically fooled and there is going to be a fake rapture orchestrated by the Illuminati to prove it all. This is some of the things that come with this Zonefide Amillennial Eschatology Package, that many are flocking to in these last days because they have been living under a cloud of delusion through Darby, Scofield, Pentecost, Chafer, Larkin and many others who are also deceived and have damaged and hindered the church considerably.
what an embarrassment that you know so little of church history of historic beliefs on Rev 20 that you actually make this as though it were soemthing i concocted.

what folly.

you're tragic these days.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
what an embarrassment that you know so little of church history of historic beliefs on Rev 20 that you actually make this as though it were soemthing i concocted.

what folly.

you're tragic these days.
Your the one preaching it here on this site, unless you deny that through some convoluted notion. I think you have done a little concocting with your isolated beliefs that come from a very liberal premise.You only embarrass yourself with all your conspiracy theories and accusations you willfully adhere to. Some of your understanding is very humorous and at the same time it makes you wonder just how far some will go.
 

Kimber321

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2011
119
7
18
Hi guys. I have to admit I am one of the ones who would feel riled when I heard someone speak against the gifts. To me it was the equivalent of someone coming into the room and speaking against Jesus, God, etc. Kind of like how the room gets upset when atheists come in and start attacking. Now that I've been in CC a while I've come to accept that the topic will come up and that people will speak against it. I've changed my attitude toward it and have a more loving and understanding attitude toward those who speak against it. Make fun of it, etc. Like those who have not come to know Christ, there are those who have not come to know the fullness of Christ and/or have stopped seeking anything further of Christ because, perhaps, they believe they already have all there is of Him.

As we all know, satan has a counterfeit for everything. That saying has almost become cliche, but it is so true. I have seen things on TV that I'm not entirely sure about. I have seen and heard things from christians that they have experienced that I'm not entirely sure about. There have been times that I've felt the Spirit strongly and, in those times, I am able to feel sure that what I've just seen is of the Spirit. I hesitate to make any judgment on anything if what I just saw/heard about also took place in the Bible or is prophesied in the Bible. When people are truly seeking God and living for Christ, I do not put a limitation on what Christ may do in their lives. I'm sure we can all agree that God knows no limitations. So, I don't look at them askance or judge them. I definitely do not want to put myself into the position of speaking against Christ or His power and glory, and in judging others I may be doing just that, albeit unwittingly. I think people become offended when someone speaks against something they are experiencing because in telling them they are NOT experiencing it is, quite literally, calling them a liar. So, given that, if I see or hear something I feel uncomfortable with or unsure about, I go my own way and do not judge it when it is happening to those who are calling on Jesus' name and living for Christ. If it is of darkness the darkness will be brought to light. I, instead, focus on my personal relationship with Christ and seek the fullness of His glory and keep my heart open to His fullness. I pray and ask for His fullness and leave the rest entirely up to Him. Just because someone else is experiencing something does not mean that I will experience it and does not mean they aren't experiencing it. I just know that if I find a, 'level,' where I think I know it all and have experienced it all then I am putting a limitation on Christ and I do not want to find myself in that position. God is an Almighty Power that we cannot begin to fathom so I truly believe there are no limitations.

For what it is worth, I ask everyone to search inside themselves and ask if they are putting a limitation on Christ. Have you truly reached a level in Christ where there is nothing more that He can offer you? If someone else is experiencing something that you aren't, are you truly willing to speak against it knowing that you may very well be sitting there speaking against Christ Himself? If it does not line up with the Bible and does not line up with love and living for Christ then, yes, we use discernment. If it does line up with the Bible and a person who is obviously dedicated to Christ and living for and following Him is experiencing it....I think we should be exceptionally wary of speaking a word against them lest we speak a word against our Savior.

Love you guys. I hope this will at least give food for thought and I pray it will help, if only in some tiny minuscule way, lead toward more unity and acceptance of others.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Gifts do not bring the fullness of Christ. Neither do experiences. Nothing external will do much good.

 
A

Abiding

Guest
sorry i didnt mean to post one big para...thats gona be hard to read