Cheap Grace Or Free Grace?

[FreeNChrist]

Did the Law ever love me? Did the Law ever sacrifice itself for me? Did the Law ever die for me? On the contrary, it accuses me, it frightens me, it drives me crazy. Somebody else saved me from the Law, from sin and death unto eternal life. That Somebody is the Son of God (Who loved me and gave Himself for me). Hence, Christ is no Moses, no tyrant, no lawgiver, but the Giver of grace, the Savior, full of mercy….. Visualize Christ in these His true colors. I do not say that it is easy. Even in the present diffusion of the Gospel light, I have much trouble to see Christ as Paul portrays Him. So deeply has the diseased opinion that Christ is a lawgiver sunk into my bones. You younger men are a good deal better off than we who are old. You have never become infected with the nefarious errors on which I suckled all my youth, until at the mention of the name of Christ I shivered with fear. You, I say, who are young may learn to know Christ in all His sweetness. For Christ is Joy and Sweetness to a broken heart. Christ is a Lover of poor sinners and such a Lover that He gave Himself for us. Now if this is true, and it is true, then are we never justified by our own righteousness.


–Martin Luther

 

[FreeNChrist]

So then, have we nothing to do to obtain righteousness? No, nothing at all! For this righteousness comes by doing nothing, hearing nothing, knowing nothing, but rather in knowing and believing this only–that Christ has gone to the right hand of the Father, not to become our judge, but to become for us our wisdom, our righteousness, our holiness, our salvation!


Now God sees no sin in us. For in this heavenly righteousness, sin has no place. So now we may certainly think, “Although I still sin, I don’t despair, because Christ lives–who is both my righteousness and my eternal life.” In that righteousness I have no sin, no fear, no guilty conscience, no fear of death. I am indeed a sinner in this life of mine and in my own righteousness, but I have another life, another righteousness above this life, which is in Christ, the Son of God, who knows no sin or death, but is eternal righteousness and eternal life. For if the truth of being justified by Christ alone (not by our works) is lost, then all Christian truths are lost…On this truth and only on this truth the Church is built and has its being.


- Martin Luther

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

A manifestation of the work of the flesh is self-effort.

If self-effort is used to love someone, is that a work of the flesh? Was the good Samaritan in the flesh when he labored to help a man?

 

[Grace777x70]

Wow...that sounds like a deadly heretic....imagine trusting in Jesus alone for salvation...the audacity that He is our righteousness...my God...what other horrid things will be next??..I say..Burn him at the stake..!...( just kiddin'.. )

So then, have we nothing to do to obtain righteousness? No, nothing at all! For this righteousness comes by doing nothing, hearing nothing, knowing nothing, but rather in knowing and believing this only–that Christ has gone to the right hand of the Father, not to become our judge, but to become for us our wisdom, our righteousness, our holiness, our salvation!


Now God sees no sin in us. For in this heavenly righteousness, sin has no place. So now we may certainly think, “Although I still sin, I don’t despair, because Christ lives–who is both my righteousness and my eternal life.” In that righteousness I have no sin, no fear, no guilty conscience, no fear of death. I am indeed a sinner in this life of mine and in my own righteousness, but I have another life, another righteousness above this life, which is in Christ, the Son of God, who knows no sin or death, but is eternal righteousness and eternal life. For if the truth of being justified by Christ alone (not by our works) is lost, then all Christian truths are lost…On this truth and only on this truth the Church is built and has its being.


- Martin Luther

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So then, have we nothing to do to obtain righteousness? No, nothing at all! For this righteousness comes by doing nothing, hearing nothing, knowing nothing, but rather in knowing and believing this only–that Christ has gone to the right hand of the Father, not to become our judge, but to become for us our wisdom, our righteousness, our holiness, our salvation!


Now God sees no sin in us. For in this heavenly righteousness, sin has no place. So now we may certainly think, “Although I still sin, I don’t despair, because Christ lives–who is both my righteousness and my eternal life.” In that righteousness I have no sin, no fear, no guilty conscience, no fear of death. I am indeed a sinner in this life of mine and in my own righteousness, but I have another life, another righteousness above this life, which is in Christ, the Son of God, who knows no sin or death, but is eternal righteousness and eternal life. For if the truth of being justified by Christ alone (not by our works) is lost, then all Christian truths are lost…On this truth and only on this truth the Church is built and has its being.
- Martin Luther

Martin Luther. What a fine example to make your case. /sarc

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."​

In a word, lawlessness.

 

[crossnote]

Yes..it could allude to the gentiles..I'm looking for any mention of gentiles being made in the previous passages...can't find it...the scriptures prior were talking about the disciples leaving all to follow Jesus....so maybe you think it's an analogy without reference to the gentiles...it would certainly fit in as the Jews are supposed to be provoked to jealousy because of us "dogs"...lol

Yeah, I was equally looking for a place where it pertains directly to rewards as well, (all rewards would be the same if that was the case).

 

[FreeNChrist]

Martin Luther. What a fine example to make your case. /sarc

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."​

If only you understood what he meant.

 

[Grace777x70]

That was a description of what loves looks like in action to a neighbor..because..remember there is that context thing again. Jesus was showing the Lawyer of the law who this real neighbor was because he was trying to justify himself..

Simply a description.....nothing to do with doing "works of righteousness"..or self-effort...having confidence in the flesh..etc

If self-effort is used to love someone, is that a work of the flesh? Was the good Samaritan in the flesh when he labored to help a man?

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is the whole post so you can see the context ...

manifestation of the work of the flesh is self-effort. Paul talked having confidence in the "things we do.." things born from the flesh....Paul said to beware of those that try to impose "works" on the Philippians.....he calls then dogs that try to attain things with their self-effort....

Philippians 3:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:

Abraham had the word of the Lord...but he tried to "fulfill" the word of God in his own way and strength and created an Ishmael in the process....in effect Abraham was trying to "bring about" the promise of God....sounds like a good desire...but God had to wait until Abraham had no confidence in the flesh to bring about God's promise...it was all God..( altho Abraham did get to "participate" in having sex with his wife.. )

Did you ever notice that when God spoke to Abraham when He wanted him to sacrifice Isaac?....He said.."take your only son.."..God doesn't not recognize anything done by human effort..even if it is trying to do "ggod things"..like doing the will of God for our lives.

The flesh will not get any glory..even if we try to fulfill the word of God.

If self-effort is used to love someone, is that a work of the flesh? Was the good Samaritan in the flesh when he labored to help a man?

 

[crossnote]

Do you think Luther's grace was a lawful grace?

If ye live according to the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:13-14​

I hope not but his Larger Catechism on the Ten Commandments was one of the most detailed expositions I ever saw on them.

The Large Catechism - Book of Concord

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Martin Luther. What a fine example to make your case. /sarc

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."​

In a word, lawlessness.

If only you understood what he meant.

I know exactly what he meant because I know what spirit was speaking through him. The spirit of lawless grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

It all seems like a good deal for us...He saves us by His grace alone... .gives us His life...we get to participate in His good works that He works through and in us...which He ordained form the foundation of the world...then He rewards us for "working with Him"...WOW!

It does lookmlike that they all got the same thing as far as payment for work...I guess we will find out when we get there..

Yeah, I was equally looking for a place where it pertains directly to rewards as well, (all rewards would be the same if that was the case).

 

[crossnote]

Martin Luther. What a fine example to make your case. /sarc

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."
​

In a word, lawlessness.

No, it's hyperbole Luther style.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I know exactly what he meant because I know what spirit was speaking through him. The spirit of lawless grace.

Wow, just wow. Telling.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Martin Luther. What a fine example to make your case. /sarc

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."​

In a word, lawlessness.

No, it's hyperbole Luther style.

IMO that's the type of rationalization that normalized lawless grace in Protestantism.

 

[crossnote]

It all seems like a good deal for us...He saves us by His grace alone... .gives us His life...we get to participate in His good works that He works through and in us...which He ordained form the foundation of the world...then He rewards us for "working with Him"...WOW!

It does lookmlike that they all got the same thing as far as payment for work...I guess we will find out when we get there..

It doesn't look like all will receive the same reward(s)...

2Co 5:9-10 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. (10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


I'm not sure if your no fault insurance will cover that.

 

[crossnote]

IMO that's the type of rationalization that normalized lawless grace in Protestantism.

No, I studied Luther and realize he often used hyperbole to rattle the introspective Melancthon from navel gazing.

Again, if Luther was lawless explain this...

The Large Catechism - Book of Concord

...one of the most detailed expositions on the 10 Commandments.

 

[Gr8grace]

Martin Luther. What a fine example to make your case. /sarc

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."​

In a word, lawlessness.

I have never seen that quote before. But I LIKE it.

I would bet it was directed smack dab at a pharisee or a "victim" in Christ. A whiner.

The "victim" is plagued with guilt,worry,fear and the pharisee Plagues the victim with guilt worry and fear.........the real problem in Christianity is guilt, worry and fear.

Not the above quote.

 

[crossnote]

Welcome to LDF...

Sin Boldly (Did Luther Really Mean It The Way We Use It Today?)

 

[Grace777x70]

Ahh..ok..I thought we were talking about in the parable of the laborers...as they got the same reward for their labors.

When you look at 1 Corth 5:9-10..it does say that we will receive things for deeds done in our body whether good or bad ( this word means worthless )...maybe we all get the same reward for the good things?....it does not indicate the quantity or the quality of those things ( gold, silver, precious gems Spirit/works).....the bad things are the worthless things done in the flesh. ( wood, stubble and hay - flesh/works )

I guess we will find out when we get there...

It doesn't look like all will receive the same reward(s)...

2Co 5:9-10 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. (10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


I'm not sure if your no fault insurance will cover that.