Cheap Grace Or Free Grace?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No, I studied Luther and realize he often used hyperbole to rattle the introspective Melancthon from navel gazing.
Again, if Luther was lawless explain this...
The Large Catechism - Book of Concord
...one of the most detailed expositions on the 10 Commandments.

Consider how wise King Solomon was, and then what a fool he became.

 

[crossnote]

Consider how wise King Solomon was, and then what a fool he became.

No doubt about it, Luther became a fool in his older years spewing out his antisemitism.

(sometimes i think i became a fool in my older years scrapping on CC )

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Welcome to LDF...

Sin Boldly (Did Luther Really Mean It The Way We Use It Today?)

On two of his quotes I posted, I think you're right. I stand corrected. Do you know where this one came from?

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."

 

[Is]

If only you understood what he meant.

Well, tell us, I'm waiting with bated breath!

 

[Is]

On two of his quotes I posted, I think you're right. I stand corrected. Do you know where this one came from?

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."

Luther was freakin mess!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No, I studied Luther and realize he often used hyperbole to rattle the introspective Melancthon from navel gazing.

Again, if Luther was lawless explain this...

The Large Catechism - Book of Concord

...one of the most detailed expositions on the 10 Commandments.

What do you know about these quotes from Luther?

“Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)

“What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?” (Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 373.)

“To lie in a case of necessity or for convenience or in excuse – such lying would not be against God; He was ready to take such lies on Himself” (Ibid. p375)

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol VI, p160)

 

[crossnote]

On two of his quotes I posted, I think you're right. I stand corrected. Do you know where this one came from?

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."

noo, nope, ah ah, nawww, I see it posted on the web but all with no Reference. It is not familiar to me.

 

[FreeNChrist]

IMO that's the type of rationalization that normalized lawless grace in Protestantism.

Now we're getting somewhere....finally your revealing the source of your vitriol.

 

[crossnote]

What do you know about these quotes from Luther?

“Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)

“What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?” (Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 373.)

“To lie in a case of necessity or for convenience or in excuse – such lying would not be against God; He was ready to take such lies on Himself” (Ibid. p375)

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol VI, p160)

Those are vaguely familiar. It's been 15 years since studying Luther, but those sound like him.
He was a man of passion and not analytics like Calvin, so a lot of what he said was pretty bombastic, but all should be taken with it's context.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

I believe there is a source called "The Life and Letters of Martin Luther" where that quote can be found.
It's a free ebook on google play

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

From Luther's letter to Jerome Weller. This guy sounds crazy. Compare this to Paul's epistles.

Whenever this temptation of melancholy comes to you, beware not to dispute with the devil nor allow yourself to dwell on these lethal thoughts, for so doing is nothing less than giving place to the devil and so falling.

Try as hard as you can to despise these thoughts sent by Satan. In this sort of temptation and battle, contempt is the easiest road to victory; laugh your enemy to scorn and ask to whom you are talking. By all means flee solitude, for he lies in wait most for those alone. This devil is conquered by despising and mocking him, not by resisting and arguing. Therefore, Jerome, joke and play games with my wife and others, in which way you will drive out your diabolic thoughts and take courage.

Be strong and cheerful and cast out those monstrous thoughts. Whenever the devil harasses you thus, seek the company of men, or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, aye, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you, “Do not drink,” answer him, “I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.” One must always do what Satan forbids. What other cause do you think that I have for drinking so much strong drink, talking so freely and making merry so often, except that I wish to mock and harass the devil who is wont to mock and harass me. Would that I could contrive some great sin to spite the devil, that he might understand that I would not even then acknowledge it and that I was conscious of no sin whatever. We, whom the devil thus seeks to annoy, should remove the whole Decalogue [10 commandments ] from our hearts and minds.

 

[crossnote]

From Luther's letter to Jerome Weller. This guy sounds crazy. Compare this to Paul's epistles.

Whenever this temptation of melancholy comes to you, beware not to dispute with the devil nor allow yourself to dwell on these lethal thoughts, for so doing is nothing less than giving place to the devil and so falling.

Try as hard as you can to despise these thoughts sent by Satan. In this sort of temptation and battle, contempt is the easiest road to victory; laugh your enemy to scorn and ask to whom you are talking. By all means flee solitude, for he lies in wait most for those alone. This devil is conquered by despising and mocking him, not by resisting and arguing. Therefore, Jerome, joke and play games with my wife and others, in which way you will drive out your diabolic thoughts and take courage.

Be strong and cheerful and cast out those monstrous thoughts. Whenever the devil harasses you thus, seek the company of men, or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, aye, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you, “Do not drink,” answer him, “I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.” One must always do what Satan forbids. What other cause do you think that I have for drinking so much strong drink, talking so freely and making merry so often, except that I wish to mock and harass the devil who is wont to mock and harass me. Would that I could contrive some great sin to spite the devil, that he might understand that I would not even then acknowledge it and that I was conscious of no sin whatever. We, whom the devil thus seeks to annoy, should remove the whole Decalogue [10 commandments ] from our hearts and minds.

If you quote Luther, it is best to quote him from his volumes of Luther's Works, otherwise there are a lot of mistranslations from the German and rumors of what he purportedly said all over the Net.
I'm no apologist for Luther but like anyone else, he should get a fair shake.

 

[popeye]

satan sucks, but hes a master at deception. Christ finished sin and satan has us focused on sin and not the Son.

We,me included, are going to shocked at the Bema seat when we brace for the lashings for all of our sins and Christ says," I paid for your sin, but remember when you gave 50,000 to the church? That was suppose to go to your brother for his cancer treatments. You had wrong motivation and acted independently from me. It was wood,hay and stubble."

"Satan sucks"

Almost spewed my cole slaw.
Funny

 

[Is]

Those are vaguely familiar. It's been 15 years since studying Luther, but those sound like him.
He was a man of passion and not analytics like Calvin, so a lot of what he said was pretty bombastic, but all should be taken with it's context.

“Do not ask anything of your conscience; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away.
(J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)

How would you put this into context?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you quote Luther, it is best to quote him from his volumes of Luther's Works, otherwise there are a lot of mistranslations from the German and rumors of what he purportedly said all over the Net.
I'm no apologist for Luther but like anyone else, he should get a fair shake.

That was a personal letter to Jerome Weller who was in the midst of depression. Weller was a theology student under Martin Luther's direct influence, living in his home and tutoring his children for nearly a decade.

Great godly advice he gave, eh? Reminds me of John Crowder of New.Modern.Hyper Grace fame.

 

[posthuman]

there is a way to teach & understand this gospel without division or error.

Please, what is it??

Romans 1:1 - 16:27

You think teaching the Romans road doesn't cause division and error?

i think Paul preaches the true gospel, and that he is neither confused about it or partial to error in either the direction of practicing licentiousness or of placing himself under the law.
.. and that his epistle to the Romans pretty much lays out the whole gospel.

so yes, i think that if we teach that gospel as it is explained in this book, without adding or taking away from it, then if there is division and error among believers concerning the gospel, we have not been the cause of it.

don't his other letters attribute division and error to false teaching and corrupt hearts and minds? and not to the gospel itself? the gospel does bring division - not peace - on the earth, but it should unite the sheep & wheat on one side, and the goats and tares on the other. when there is division among true believers, i think it's not because of the pure gospel, but the adversary.

 

[Gr8grace]

What do you know about these quotes from Luther?

“Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)

“What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?” (Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 373.)

“To lie in a case of necessity or for convenience or in excuse – such lying would not be against God; He was ready to take such lies on Himself” (Ibid. p375)

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol VI, p160)

I love this one..........Because it is the state Christianity is in in this day and age.

Unbelievers and religion are deeds based and merit based. If we work good deeds through our flesh............they are evil and deceive us very easily and we can easily think we are in the light and we are in a GREAT darkness.

Most sin is pretty easy to discern, but righteous deeds done in the flesh.......thats tricky.



“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol VI, p160)

 

[posthuman]

you want to teach good works? it's in Romans.

Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
(Romans 12:11)

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation -- but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
(Romans 8:12)​

you want to teach free grace, and salvation apart from works? it's in Romans.

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
(Romans 4:4-5)​

you want to teach eternal security? it's in Romans.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:38-39)​

you want to teach falling out of grace? it's in Romans.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
(Romans 11:21-22)​

you want to preach predestination? it's in Romans.

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
(Romans 9:16-18)​

you want to teach free will? it's ... oh, wait ..

little help?

 

[Hoffco]

Grace is the effectual element in salvation. It takes resurrection power to convert a sinner.

 

[FreeNChrist]

i think Paul preaches the true gospel, and that he is neither confused about it or partial to error in either the direction of practicing licentiousness or of placing himself under the law.
.. and that his epistle to the Romans pretty much lays out the whole gospel.

so yes, i think that if we teach that gospel as it is explained in this book, without adding or taking away from it, then if there is division and error among believers concerning the gospel, we have not been the cause of it.

don't his other letters attribute division and error to false teaching and corrupt hearts and minds? and not to the gospel itself? the gospel does bring division - not peace - on the earth, but it should unite the sheep & wheat on one side, and the goats and tares on the other. when there is division among true believers, i think it's not because of the pure gospel, but the adversary.

So, IOW, there is no way to teach the gospel without it causing divisions.