Chosen by God - A study in Election

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EleventhHour

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#21
Calvinists do not believe in osas, but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
Not one who objects to these truths has accurately identified the correct teaching, but offer weak strawman caricatures.
That would be correct those who do not preserver were never saved.

Thus Calvinism is a works based salvation.
 
May 31, 2020
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#22
Election denied is by those who have not been allowed to grasp the truth.
That’s like saying last night I talked to Martians, prove me wrong. Or better yet when third graders say I know you are but what am I. You’re better than that, Icon.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#23
Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)
We are indeed saved INTO the Body of living Christ.

But you have cut off half the Gospel by saying we are not saved by the Blood and death of Jesus Christ.

Surprised people agreed with you on that.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#24
Yet not one verse says we are chosen to be saved .
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
Yes his life saved not ours .That new life comes with the adoption . The better thing that acompanies his work of salvation in us.

The adoption is the new birth. The call to adoption.

As the bride of Christ previous widowed no husband and no heavenly father . James speaks of encouragement for the family of God to suffer with each other. the kind of religion he works to perform in the new creatures to love one another.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Same kind of parable spoken of in the old testament.

Zechariah 7:9-10 King James Version (KJV) Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Salvation is all one work of the faith of Christ who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure .Philippians 1:6 informs us if he began the work he will finish it to the end. He is the alpha and omega .

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#25
Yet not one verse says we are chosen to be saved .
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
A lot of dubious parsing going on here, much of which I cannot possibly agree with.

But ultimately there are only 3 questions to be answered:
Did God save you by grace, or did you save yourself by works i.e. your choice? Was it God's will or your will? Does God get the glory for your salvation or do you share the glory?

Rom 11:32
"For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

Rom 11:4
But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Where these 7000 extra special in some way? Did they distinguish themselves in any way? Unlikely. The text clearly indicates that the Divine Will was the ONLY determining factor, God being merciful and gracious.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#26
Yet not one verse says we are chosen to be saved .
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
To postulate that the atonement has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation is plainly blasphemous. In fact the shed blood of Christ is the basis for the new covenant.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#27
Calvinists should give it a rest. TULIP IS TIRESOME.

1. Unconditional election is FALSE DOCTRINE. Among many other passages John 3:16,17 thoroughly refutes it.

2. Since all men are sinners, and Christ died for all, God offers salvation freely to all mankind. That in itself is the strongest proof that Calvinistic unconditional election is not only false, BUT OPPOSES GOD AND CHRIST.

4. Furthermore Israel in the Bible is the strongest evidence that God elects none for salvation or damnation. Israel was in fact THE ELECT NATION of God. Which would mean -- according to Calvinistic logic -- that each and every Israelite should have been elected for salvation. But the history of Israel proves that because of unbelief and rebellion, only a small believing remnant of Jews were saved. Indeed God brought judgment upon Israel for the rejection of Christ.

5. Therefore with all of those Scriptures before Calvinists, it is purely WILFUL BLINDNESS to go on believing the lie that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.
It is double predestination that is a false doctrine. Election is however boilerplate.
It is clear from Rom 9 that God is not choosing those to be damned. Why? God does not need to......they are condemned already (John 3:18).

This passage indicates that God is not moving on the condemned, He is simply leaving them as they are. Text does say that God (He) is the one who has "prepared some beforehand for glory"

Rom 9
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#28
We are indeed saved INTO the Body of living Christ.

But you have cut off half the Gospel by saying we are not saved by the Blood and death of Jesus Christ.

Surprised people agreed with you on that.
But when ? we were not saved when Jesus was on the Cross or when He said " it is finished " . We were not saved at the resurrection either . We are only saved AFTER we Believe .
Yes his life saved not ours .That new life comes with the adoption . The better thing that acompanies his work of salvation in us.

The adoption is the new birth. The call to adoption.

As the bride of Christ previous widowed no husband and no heavenly father . James speaks of encouragement for the family of God to suffer with each other. the kind of religion he works to perform in the new creatures to love one another.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Same kind of parable spoken of in the old testament.

Zechariah 7:9-10 King James Version (KJV) Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Salvation is all one work of the faith of Christ who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure .Philippians 1:6 informs us if he began the work he will finish it to the end. He is the alpha and omega .

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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#29
Yes his life saved not ours .That new life comes with the adoption . The better thing that acompanies his work of salvation in us.

The adoption is the new birth. The call to adoption.

As the bride of Christ previous widowed no husband and no heavenly father . James speaks of encouragement for the family of God to suffer with each other. the kind of religion he works to perform in the new creatures to love one another.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Same kind of parable spoken of in the old testament.

Zechariah 7:9-10 King James Version (KJV) Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Salvation is all one work of the faith of Christ who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure .Philippians 1:6 informs us if he began the work he will finish it to the end. He is the alpha and omega .

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
we are Adopted when we are Glorified.
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,360
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#30
Calvinists should give it a rest. TULIP IS TIRESOME.

1. Unconditional election is FALSE DOCTRINE. Among many other passages John 3:16,17 thoroughly refutes it.

2. Since all men are sinners, and Christ died for all, God offers salvation freely to all mankind. That in itself is the strongest proof that Calvinistic unconditional election is not only false, BUT OPPOSES GOD AND CHRIST.

4. Furthermore Israel in the Bible is the strongest evidence that God elects none for salvation or damnation. Israel was in fact THE ELECT NATION of God. Which would mean -- according to Calvinistic logic -- that each and every Israelite should have been elected for salvation. But the history of Israel proves that because of unbelief and rebellion, only a small believing remnant of Jews were saved. Indeed God brought judgment upon Israel for the rejection of Christ.

5. Therefore with all of those Scriptures before Calvinists, it is purely WILFUL BLINDNESS to go on believing the lie that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.
I am not a Calvinist.

The thrust of John chapter 3 is as follows:
No one has any choice whatsoever regarding their first birth. And Jesus Himself makes it perfectly clear that no one has any choice whatsoever regarding their second birth. Both are sovereign works of God, both an expression of His Will.
 
May 19, 2020
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#31
Calvinists do not believe in osas, but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
Not one who objects to these truths has accurately identified the correct teaching, but offer weak strawman caricatures.


I believe God will keep me Saved,I have no doubt on that....
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#32
A lot of dubious parsing going on here, much of which I cannot possibly agree with.

But ultimately there are only 3 questions to be answered:
Did God save you by grace, or did you save yourself by works i.e. your choice? Was it God's will or your will? Does God get the glory for your salvation or do you share the glory?

Rom 11:32
"For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

Rom 11:4
But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Where these 7000 extra special in some way? Did they distinguish themselves in any way? Unlikely. The text clearly indicates that the Divine Will was the ONLY determining factor, God being merciful and gracious.
Were dealing with the basics here of Christianity. Simply put .The Order in which we are saved .
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1.13
And all this rubbish about freewill and philosophy to confuse people is cleared up completely by 1 cor 1.21 .
Its not about us . its about what pleases God . It pleases God to save those that he causes to believe? No . God is PLEASED to save those that believe .
 
May 19, 2020
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#33
Actually what you have just done here is destroy any possibility of election

its states god can not know who truly has saving faith and who does not, so he has to guess, and give some eternal life, not knowing they will rebel and lose the opportunity to earn eternal life

it is in fact. Putting god down, it is almost as bad as dual fatalism, in that it rejects the gospel and says god is unknowing and incapable of determine who has saving faith and who does not, so gives hives his gift with no knowledge of the future

i guess God can see future events thousands of years in advance but can’t see 40 years down the road and what a person will do


Am I reading this correctly?..God cannot know who truly has saving grace?....are you joking....God knows everything....he knows what I’m gonna do,before I’ve even done it......my belief.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#34
No one has any choice whatsoever regarding their first birth. And Jesus Himself makes it perfectly clear that no one has any choice whatsoever regarding their second birth. Both are sovereign works of God, both an expression of His Will.
Can you explain how Jesus himself made it perfectly clear in John 3 that no one has any choice whatsoever regarding their second birth?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#35
To postulate that the atonement has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation is plainly blasphemous. In fact the shed blood of Christ is the basis for the new covenant.
That's only if you have the philosophy that you were saved at the cross .
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)
Which is not Christianity.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#36
I am not a Calvinist.

The thrust of John chapter 3 is as follows:
No one has any choice whatsoever regarding their first birth. And Jesus Himself makes it perfectly clear that no one has any choice whatsoever regarding their second birth. Both are sovereign works of God, both an expression of His Will.[/QUOTE Which is reformed theology ?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#37
But when ? we were not saved when Jesus was on the Cross or when He said " it is finished " . We were not saved at the resurrection either . We are only saved AFTER we Believe .
Absolutely positively profoundly wrong.

All believers are saved (have been saved, already were saved) before the foundation of the world, long before we were born, before anything existed. The same can be said of the preordained sacrifice of Christ, His atonement being foreordained before the founding of the world.

How you can say that we are involved in an incident that happened before our birth is simply incorrect and ludicrous.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#38
That's only if you have the philosophy that you were saved at the cross .
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)
Which is not Christianity.
Christians are saved in eternity past and have nothing whatsoever to say about it. Nevertheless the cross, itself being foreordained, was an absolute necessity.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#39
I am not a Calvinist.

The thrust of John chapter 3 is as follows:
No one has any choice whatsoever regarding their first birth. And Jesus Himself makes it perfectly clear that no one has any choice whatsoever regarding their second birth. Both are sovereign works of God, both an expression of His Will.
Your making a faulty analogy. Its God who says that how we are to recieve the Holy Spirit. Not you .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#40
Absolutely positively profoundly wrong.

All believers are saved (have been saved, already were saved) before the foundation of the world, long before we were born, before anything existed. The same can be said of the preordained sacrifice of Christ, His atonement being foreordained before the founding of the world.

How you can say that we are involved in an incident that happened before our birth is simply incorrect and ludicrous.
Saved before believing the Gospel ?Here it is folks . A denial of the necessary Work on the cross and subsequent resurrection .
 
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