Chosen by God - A study in Election

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#41
Calvinists do not believe in osas, but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
Not one who objects to these truths has accurately identified the correct teaching, but offer weak strawman caricatures.
The so-called perseverance is a gift from God. As is the calling, as is the faith. Believing in and of itself is a gift as well.

Eph 2
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Wow. So God even prepared the good works beforehand that we should walk in them?

It looks to me like God gets all the glory for everything. As it should be.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#42
It is double predestination that is a false doctrine. Election is however boilerplate.
It is clear from Rom 9 that God is not choosing those to be damned. Why? God does not need to......they are condemned already (John 3:18).

This passage indicates that God is not moving on the condemned, He is simply leaving them as they are. Text does say that God (He) is the one who has "prepared some beforehand for glory"

Rom 9
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
John MacArthur is has many Calvinist leanings..... he is just more politically correct about it.

Beloved, can you grasp that reality? You are a Christian because you are chosen to be one by God. That’s what the Bible says. It is the chosen who are the saved. The term, as I said, means to “select,” to “pick out,” to “call out from among.” And Peter is simply saying that Christians are people God has chosen to belong to himself. That’s the nature of election. The nature of election is God has chosen a people to belong to him, and we’re that people. God chooses people out of all the world to belong to him.
There is only double predestination... one group is chosen and dragged to redemption the other is not.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#43
Christians are saved in eternity past and have nothing whatsoever to say about it. Nevertheless the cross, itself being foreordained, was an absolute necessity.
The cross a 'nevertheless '? why was it necessary if you were already saved ? Was Jesus just an errand boy for the frozen chosen ? To awaken them at the right time with hindu enlightenment?
Jesus is the only preexisting elect before the foundation of the world. Not calvnists . The bible is about Jesus not you and your elect.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#44
That’s like saying last night I talked to Martians, prove me wrong. Or better yet when third graders say I know you are but what am I. You’re better than that, Icon.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

I do not think mankind can move him to change his mind. he makes the heart soft .He perform the things appointed to us working in and with us to do His good pleasure. .

Job 23: 13-14 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
For
he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


Its not about who is a better Christian or who is ones favorite bible preacher as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood the temporal things seen. .

Mankind plants the incorruptible seed and waters it by preaches the gospel .God does the teaching and forming Christ in the person if any .

But mercy is about God who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases having mercy .He alone can make our new heart soft.

The biggest problem comes from those that have the idea there is some work they could do after they stop breathing buried under ground .. Some say their bones will be dug up and judged as in double jeopardy. .Believer will not come into condemnation.

God is a God of mercy .Not vengeance as in. . .I will punish one forever and ever while not punishing the other. we live in a body of death it punishment' will prevail and return to the dust

When a unbeliever not given a new born again spirit dies The lifeless, spiritless dust returns to the field of clay and their temporal spirit subject to the letter of the law (death) It returns to the father who gave it temporally.

Hell is the daily sufferings we experience in these bodies of death . God has mercy by giving some a new spirit that will rise on the last day and it will then be clothed with the eternal .Body, soul and spirit a new creature..

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It would seem salvation has in some ways been turned upside down taking away the understanding of the Potter .

Believing God not seen is a work of God ,the first experience of His love giving us his understanding through the living abiding word..

I would think Christians are saved by Christ's labor of love. Also called work of faith working . the Son working with the father for three days and nights . His faith that works in us with us is not our own selves .We are his masterpiece. The Potter forms the clay. He says let there be the glorious light of his presence and it is good when we do mix faith Our first love. The comforting love we repent to.

I am not accusing. . .Salvation is not about who had the wiser choice choosing life (moving the Potters hand). . rather than the dummies that don't know a good deal when they see one. That simply makes no biblical sense to me. The way I understand. More like the voice of the clay .

Christ must increase as we decrease .

I think we must be careful how we hear or say we hear the understanding of another. Familiarity like with Jesus' brothers and sisters can bring contempt, cause hatred (no blessing ) and can end up in murder as in. Out of sight out of mind . The foundation of Paganism .(No faith)

We must guard our heart be patient the first work of love and hear the understanding . A rope of three strands is not easily broken.

My wife and I need to be lifted up as with any two working to become one new bride.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#45
Here it is, all put more succinctly.....

He shall never be clearly persuaded, as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from eternal election, which illumines God’s grace by this contrast: that he does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion p. 921
I am curious? Have you read Institutes? I have a copy but have not read it.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#46
Your making a faulty analogy. Its God who says that how we are to recieve the Holy Spirit. Not you .
I think you're missing the point of John ch 3. Tell us exactly what work or acts do WE have to "do" to receive the Holy Spirit? Is receiving the Holy Spirit an act of God's Will alone, or are we helping the Trinity make that decision by our own activities and our own influence?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#47
I am curious? Have you read Institutes? I have a copy but have not read it.
I have read a portion, along with some other of his other writings.
He is full of contradictions... much like his followers.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#48
The cross a 'nevertheless '? why was it necessary if you were already saved ? Was Jesus just an errand boy for the frozen chosen ? To awaken them at the right time with hindu enlightenment?
Jesus is the only preexisting elect before the foundation of the world. Not calvnists . The bible is about Jesus not you and your elect.
So, God has no idea what He is doing until men that He has created allow Him to save them?

By manufacturing some belief inside them that they have no ability or power to create in themselves?



Seems like a dumb philosophy to me. It would be a better philosophy to just allow God to be God. All knowing. All powerful.

And then you could see yourself as you truly are. The receiver of the Gifts that God gives. Not the one that allows God to do what He wills.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#49
I think you're missing the point of John ch 3. Tell us exactly what work or acts do WE have to "do" to receive the Holy Spirit? Is receiving the Holy Spirit an act of God's Will alone, or are we helping the Trinity make that decision by our own activities and our own influence?
God is not subject to your philosophy. He has said in 1 cor 1.21 that it pleases HIM to save those that , were already saved before Jesus came to suffer and die on a cross ,be buried and rise again , but it pleased God to lose them and have to find them, cause belief in those he already saved anyway? or does it simply say it pleases God to save those that believe?
 

cv5

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#50
Were dealing with the basics here of Christianity. Simply put .The Order in which we are saved .
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1.13
And all this rubbish about freewill and philosophy to confuse people is cleared up completely by 1 cor 1.21 .
Its not about us . its about what pleases God . It pleases God to save those that he causes to believe? No . God is PLEASED to save those that believe .
"The order in which we are saved"
That is where you have gone off the rails. We are foreordained to salvation from eternity past long before we were born, before the foundation of the world, this according to the predetermined plan of God.
 
May 19, 2020
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#51
I think you're missing the point of John ch 3. Tell us exactly what work or acts do WE have to "do" to receive the Holy Spirit? Is receiving the Holy Spirit an act of God's Will alone, or are we helping the Trinity make that decision by our own activities and our own influence?

It is an act of God will..no question about it...I did nothing to receive salvation....God brought me to the place of crying out to Him......it was an amazing testifying to my Spirit from the Holy Spirit.
 
May 19, 2020
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#52
"The order in which we are saved"
That is where you have gone off the rails. We are foreordained to salvation from eternity past long before we were born, before the foundation of the world, this according to the predetermined plan of God.


Amen!
 

throughfaith

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#53
So, God has no idea what He is doing until men that He has created allow Him to save them?

By manufacturing some belief inside them that they have no ability or power to create in themselves?



Seems like a dumb philosophy to me. It would be a better philosophy to just allow God to be God. All knowing. All powerful.

And then you could see yourself as you truly are. The receiver of the Gifts that God gives. Not the one that allows God to do what He wills.
What are you talking about . IT PLEASES GOD ...let that sink in for a moment ...TO SAVE THOSE THAT BELIEVE . Why are there some saying " no God , I know you say it pleases you but , come on really? wouldn't it better to save people another way "
 

throughfaith

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#54
"The order in which we are saved"
That is where you have gone off the rails. We are foreordained to salvation from eternity past long before we were born, before the foundation of the world, this according to the predetermined plan of God.
then eph 1.13 means nothing to you ?
let's just make our own context up as we feel ?
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#55
That's only if you have the philosophy that you were saved at the cross .
Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)
Which is not Christianity.
I think you got that wrong. We are not saved at the cross, however we are saved because of the cross, because of the atoning work of Christ. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

You seem to be wrapped up in this business about timing of events. Big mistake.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#56
I have read a portion, along with some other of his other writings.
He is full of contradictions... much like his followers.
Maybe I will listen to it on Audible.com while I work on something mundane. This should get me through it at least once or twice. It is not a requirement in the Bible College I am enrolled in. I never get in to these discussions because I don't really know what he taught unless I read it myself.
 

throughfaith

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#57
I think you got that wrong. We are not saved at the cross, however we are saved because of the cross, because of the atoning work of Christ. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

You seem to be wrapped up in this business about timing of events. Big mistake.
I'm not the one saying we are saved at the cross . Re read my posts . And now your changing the plot . Which is it ? were you saved before( you existed) or saved ' because ' of the cross . Whats the difference? And wheres your scriptures ( in context) ...stand by for the Proof texts .
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#58
What are you talking about . IT PLEASES GOD ...let that sink in for a moment ...TO SAVE THOSE THAT BELIEVE . Why are there some saying " no God , I know you say it pleases you but , come on really? wouldn't it better to save people another way "
Again I think you have run a skew of the import of those passages.
The key here is: by what mechanism God decided to save souls. God decided to use belief i.e. faith, not works, lest any man should boast.

You are twisting all of this around to make it sound is if our "work" of "belief" is pleasing God. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#59
But when ? we were not saved when Jesus was on the Cross or when He said " it is finished " . We were not saved at the resurrection either . We are only saved AFTER we Believe .
Arminians, Calvinists, and everyone in between all agree that we are saved by the atoning Sacrificial death of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

His death paid our sin debt. If you are in any way excluding that as the basis for our Salvation, you are preaching a false and damnable Gospel.

Perhaps you worded it incorrectly. Please tell me you believe Jesus’s death is what saves us.

His resurrection is proof of who He is, and part of the Gospel is believing He rose, but it is His death which saves us from the penalty we deserve for our sin.
 

throughfaith

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#60
Again I think you have run a skew of the import of those passages.
The key here is: by what mechanism God decided to save souls. God decided to use belief i.e. faith, not works, lest any man should boast.

You are twisting all of this around to make it sound is if our "work" of "belief" is pleasing God. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Really? Hebrews 11
5¶By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
It PLEASES GOD . it may not please Calvinists, But the bible is about what pleases God not Cavinists and reformed theologians that calvinists are parroting.
 
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